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| Thread: Elvin's Guide To Making a Good Heroes Game! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 18, 2016 11:18 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Must be really crazy people then, to insist play same dumb and rubbish game.
And modding it... It's almost ironic that the best Heroes of the decade is a free mod but I vote for HotA over any other recently released Heroes game.
Salamandre said:
Not that all maps are like Metataxer, far from that and FORTUNATELY, but also Metataxer is a great example that greatly innovating in an old H game is still possible
I used Metataxer as an example cause I consider it expands the tactical possibilities of the game, so what I mean is if playing a game that had an even stronger strategic component then H3. For the opposite example I would choose a game I'm pretty much a master, Lord of the Rings: the battle for Middle-Earth.
It takes several minutes to save and load but the AI sucks so much if it didn't cheat as hell Impossible difficulty would be a cakewalk. It is highly playable but you restart, you don't even consider save and load.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 12:01 AM |
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I seems to me that JJ explained it well and you're just unwilling to come to terms with it. Is reason the price to pay to persist in something which you enjoy? Yes, many of Heroes 3's tactics are gaps in the AI's ability to learn. Yes, a lot of people like them and play by them in their daily games and tournaments. But why should that be allowed instead of improved upon is beyond me. What I believe now, and this is like an epiphany to me, is that the number and quality of tactics in Heroes 3 reached a ceiling where removing exploits would be like removing strategy. If you'd play Elvin's duel map in Heroes 5 like I do I'm sure you'd give a different meaning to what sound strategy actually is.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 19, 2016 01:16 AM |
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Stevie said:
If you'd play Elvin's duel map in Heroes 5 like I do I'm sure you'd give a different meaning to what sound strategy actually is.
Duels mean skipping close to the entire game it's just straight to big battle with even armies and heroes...
I want to ask both to you and JJ, what Heroes III fan made maps have you played?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 01:48 AM |
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Duels is the point of multiplayer in Heroes, even if you do it the classical way or if you jump straight into it.
And I'm not sure why my Heroes 3 experience is on trial, but I'll just say that I remember playing Alexander the Great and The Dragon Slaughter from the fan made maps, while the vast majority went into single scenarios and random maps.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted April 19, 2016 02:28 AM |
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Stevie said:
If you'd play Elvin's duel map in Heroes 5 like I do I'm sure you'd give a different meaning to what sound strategy actually is.
And here is where the whole thing gets fuzzy.
Playing the dual-map means you actually cut out the Strategy component of the game and focus instead on the Tactical side of it. That in itself is not a problem since it's made for fun. However that does not make it a good strategy game and this is where H4, H6 and to a certain extent H5 had its problems.
Salamandre said:
Exploiting and having fun from AI flaws is not like beating a 4 yo kid. Battle is about doing it BETTER than your opponent, which doesn't necessarily means you know by heart the tricks then play them like a robot, but that you have the guts to take the risks he doesn't. That you are able to improvise beyond the rules, that you own the game it its RNG core, that you can prevail against all odds.
I have to agree with this. The pressure of time to do better than your opponent(AI or human), taking risks and compensating against the RNG is what makes the strategy gameplay part of the game challenging.
Focusing too much on the tactical battle side of things will result in skilla that the AI will ultimately be unable to use properly thus forcing it to cheat to remain competitive which is actually worse then it simply being exploitable.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2016 06:09 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 09:15, 19 Apr 2016.
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Heroes should be equal parts management, strategy and tactics. H6 went mostly for tactics and that got old fast. H5 was a lot about tactics but the amount of passive skills and/or the snowball effect from powercreeping could negate any influence your tactical skill might have made. Tactics and strategy should compete more or less equally in the so called final battle, otherwise that battle will end up one-sided more often than not.
But giving so much emphasis on abusing combat AI is kinda lame. Sadly, whether you are a great player or not is a matter of exploits. Like taking down a pack of dragons week 2 or lots of archangels week 3. It's amazing that such creeping feats are possible but regrettable that they involve so much cheese. That turns the better part of the game into AI abuse instead on focusing on outsmarting your opponent which would be so much more fun.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 08:12 AM |
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Also: compare these three quotes, the second being from the positive thing thread:
Salamandre said:
I can not talk for all heroes games, but for having played a lot H2 and H3, I can say that those "exploits" as you call them, are damnt hard to put in practice, as there are a dozen of parameters which can go wrong. So it takes a lot of skill, practice and dedication to master them, and THIS is why is fun for a lot of people.
Salamandre said:
I didn't try the game but I hardly see how losing a stack provoking lower morale is a good thing. Actually this is shockingly against all Heroes traditions, which are based on taking the retal with single stacks, in order to optimize casualties.
So you will lose 6 single stacks but keep retals at minimum, and this is and always was battle strategy, which is ruined now by that morale thing, if it is true what you say.
Salamandre said:
Exploiting and having fun from AI flaws is not like beating a 4 yo kid. Battle is about doing it BETTER than your opponent, which doesn't necessarily means you know by heart the tricks then play them like a robot, but that you have the guts to take the risks he doesn't. That you are able to improvise beyond the rules, that you own the game it its RNG core, that you can prevail against all odds.
How does the "dozens of parameters which can go wrong, so it takes a lot of skill and practise" and having "the guts to take risks, improvise beyond the rules, that you own the game in its RNG core that you prevail against all ods" fit with the outrage about having one of those parameters added, the above mentioned morale loss for losing a stack?
I will tell how: it doesn't fit at all. The high horse about parameters and what not is just bollocks. People love their exploits, period. And I have no problem with that. I do have a problem though, when people start claiming these exploits are the ultimate in tactics and strategy, challenging and whatnot.
Bullcrap.
Like Elvin said as well.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2016 09:07 AM |
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I didn't say say they are the ultimate strategy, I didn't even say H3 is perfect. If it was, I wouldn't have spend the last 3-4 years trying to improve it, within my modest coding skills. And let's talk about your stack proposition, it sounds interesting because people just want to talk and speculate about. Strategy is about minimizing loses with minimal forces, not maximal forces.
When you say 1 unit stacks should be banned then you open a door to a void. What will be the minimum stack then? 2? 20? How we calculate it, in function of the shooters behind or in function of the whole army? What if the shooter stack is a single unit? Then the protecting stack can be a single stack? You see the confusion you create? Who tested that? Which game use that? Where you get your ideas, in your coffee?
Then my point is simple: Heroes had its golden age. That you or a few others deny it and keep bashing on, it is of no interest, those are VERY minority opinions. I am not saying that a next Heroes game HAS to be like H2 or H3, but when going as VIP while you consider the golden age of Heroes being H4 -as your remarks suggest too often, then don't be surprised the game you get is H7 or even that the team doesn't listen to you. They should be told to look, analyse and understand why such games created a golden age, then create a game based on what they observed. In their own style why not, but not that clumsy interface and indecent loading times. I mean, make a thread about how to make next heroes game, and not mention Heroes 2 and 3 as solid references? This thread is biased from the start.
And Elvin, I don't know well H5 but in H2-3 you certainly can't take out a pack of dragons week 2 if you play a normal game, without editing the map, lets not exaggerate and keep a realistic discussions level.
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Era II mods and utilities
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 09:21 AM |
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Salamandre said:
in H2-3 you certainly can't take out a pack of dragons week 2 if you play a normal game
Just at 200% or above. Commun break time for Jebus is before the end of week two at 160%, for competition.
And I may be mistaken but in think I once had an army to carelessly take a tope week two at 200%, on a random XXL HotA map where I had some creature banks near and got two Cove heroes on tavern first day. It could be week three tough, can't be sure and didn't record it.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted April 19, 2016 09:26 AM |
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Salamandre said:
And Elvin, I don't know well H5 but in H2-3 you certainly can't take out a pack of dragons week 2 if you play a normal game, without editing the map, lets not exaggerate and keep a realistic discussions level.
Of course you can. Jebus Cross, Month 1, Week 2, Day 4.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2016 09:32 AM |
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Those templates are edited. I talk about normal game, normal generator, you won't get there a super hero week 1.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2016 09:36 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 09:38, 19 Apr 2016.
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Salamandre said:
They should be told to look, analyse and understand why such games created a golden age, then create a game based on what they observed. In their own style why not, but not that clumsy interface and indecent loading times. I mean, make a thread about how to make next heroes game, and not mention Heroes 2 and 3 as solid references? This thread is biased from the start.
And Elvin, I don't know well H5 but in H2-3 you certainly can't take out a pack of dragons week 2 if you play a normal game, without editing the map, lets not exaggerate and keep a realistic discussions level.
Well, this is more or less exactly what happened. There were discussions about what would be good in a heroes game and H7 is what we got, with said interface and loading times. That went well 
And about power-creeping, those were valid examples. A really good player with a little luck can defeat some ridiculously powerful enemies and quite early at that. But most encounters would be a lot different if they were being controlled by a human hero instead of the AI. In some maps, player controlled garrisons were added to make accessing some areas harder 
A couple of examples: 2 vampires with last stand(in a stack of at least 2 units, the last units survives with 1hp) and raise dead can take down 999 black dragons. Raise dead reduces hp by 20% each time so after 5 casts vamps reach 1hp and the second vampire is restored by the life drain retaliation and last stand triggers indefinitely.
Before 3.1 patch, the AI would wait when facing invisible creatures. So you would split assassins, causing large units to be split in 4 stacks and have a fireball hit 2 of them per cast. Except ignite triggers everytime it is the unit's turn and waiting makes the unit's turn come twice as fast. Burn baby burn.
H6 had some cheesy exploits of its own. Like surround ravagers(they force nearby units to attack only them) with fodder and watch as the AI gets a brain freeze. It cannot reach the ravagers nor protect the units that protect them and just stays there.
H6 agony spell triggers on every retaliation. So cast it on the unlimited retaliation griffins and demolish the stack effortlessly.
Finding tricks like that can be so much fun but they make creeping a freaking circus once you know them.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 09:36 AM |
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frostymuaddib said:
Of course you can.
Yeah but they usually play at 160%, so they can always buy more then one hero day 1 and even start with resources to build something.
Playing at 200% or above may not mean much but it certainly means a first week dellay.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2016 09:49 AM |
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It does not matter the difficulty. They heavily edited the templates to isolate the players + abnormal treasures so you can peacefully develop your hero, thus he will achieve abnormal stats. There is no such concept as "zones guards" in original template.
Now try to play a game where nothing separates you from the other player so both can attack each other from first days, and calculate how strong is your main, if you have any, on second week. He will not exceed level 5 or so, while you lost all your 7 secondary to skirmish wars. This was Heroes at base and this is how it was played in ToH for 6 years before whiners started to ask editing separate areas.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 10:01 AM |
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I don't have such a senority but if I recalled it right it was also the time they patched the new heroes in tavern from bringing an army.
Has I said I didn't played the game like that at the time, I was a noob and kept that way till a few years ago when I discovered WoG existed and joinned the Community just to learn ERM (wich is something still in process...), but it sounds to me if you can exploit "gremlin rush" scout wars don't seam so bad.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 11:11 AM |
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I didn't say anything about BANNING 1-unit stacks; the point was that losing a stack incurs a morale penalty.
I myself have made - long ago - the suggestion, to add an OVERRUN rule to the game. This could have many forms, but at the heart of it is the basic idea that if a stack is [superior]* enough, it wouldn't use up its one attack to kill the opponent, but only additional movement points.
[superior]* -> MINIMUM damage of attacking stack (including bad luck) = X times the damage necessary to kill the defender; X being a question of balance and trying things out.
This could be kept simple (attacker would use up a certain constant number of MPs for that), exclusive (only big creatures can overrun, and only small units), more involved (MPs used up would depend on actual level of superiority: example: X = 3: 3 additional MPs; X = 6: 2 additional MPs, X >= 10: 1 additional MP), and in fact work any way you want it, but it would obviously ADD another tactical dimension to battles.
If you don't like that - what if Dragon Utopias would not only come with an assortment of Dragons, but also with a Hero (with a level depending on the difficulty) and - for example - the Death Ripple (or Death Wave for mor difficulty) and the Holy Word/Holy Shout for undead armies as well?
It IS true - it's about conquest as early as possible and with minimal losses, BUT: based on sound tactical ideas and spell use, not based on reliable idiotic AI behavior.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 01:46 PM |
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I remember that thread of yours JJ, and I must admit that even now I'm reluctant to get behind some of your ideas. The overrun ability sounds promising but not as a general mechanic for all creatures. I would have the Crush instead, where 2x2 creatures could fly or walk over a 1x1 unit and kill the stack. It would give an advantage to the otherwise unfavored large creatures. The conditions for that to happen should depend on a stack power calculus comprised of factors like tier, hp sum / stack numbers, defense and attack, as intuitive and balanced as possible.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 02:24 PM |
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I was just trying to explain that it's not a question of having a feature or not, but more a question of implementing it in ways that keep possible exploits to reasonable levels. Picking formations and stack sizes is good (H3 not even offering the option to leave units out of a battle, like H5 does), but if something is advantageous as a matter of course it gets boring.
Meaning, I'm not keen on having that so much, as trying to show that there are alternatives with rules and implementations to basically support the AI's cause.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2016 02:33 PM |
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Large units are too much of a hassle in a square tile system. I am all for a chess feel but that doesn't work well with 1x1 and 2x2 units nor would I like the battlefield to be composed of numerous tiny tiles.
And besides, hexes have always been a more popular option. What advantage do squares have over it anyway?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 02:54 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:56, 19 Apr 2016.
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More adjacency and big creatures is all I can think about and whether they're advantages or not might depend on the context. I'm sure I said this before but my main issue with hexes is that they cannot reliably allow big creatures in the sense of positional big on the grid and not just an attribute unless you go from 1 hex to 7 or you try more experimental geometry to counteract that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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