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| Thread: Elvin's Guide To Making a Good Heroes Game! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 03:06 PM |
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Elvin, you were part of the discussion, weren't you?
The main reason we have squares is, that 3d models in the BF have to be able to turn where they stand, and without using space of adjacent tiles. So with hexes a 2x1 isn't working as a 3d model.
Of course H4 also worked with squares already, except they had 4 different sizes, from 3x3 to 6x6, which is obviously offering a lot more than the simplistic 1x1 and 2x2.
I mean, if you zoom out to see the full BF, models are pretty small anyway, so if you want to see the 3d-models in all their glorious detail you have to zoom in anyway, so that you don't see much of the "chess board" which means, they could have done it right as well and tripled the number of squares in both dimensions, having 4 different sizes and real impressive Cyclopses and Dragons.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2016 03:46 PM |
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Yes but 3-hex creatures are also a possibility. The room in its middle is effectively the same as a regular hex but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a proper scale so as to make it visually appealing while avoiding clipping. Or even ditch large unit size and rely on visual and abilities to make the size felt, like KB did.
I used to like the idea of smaller squares so as to bridge the game between large and small units but for me H4 is a good argument why this would not be as appealing. It would be technically sound but the battlefield would not feel like a chessboard anymore. Matter of taste I guess.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 19, 2016 04:22 PM |
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I agree it's strange that one pixie can suck up the retaliation of 1000 dragons. The way I like to think about it is that the pixie baits out an attack from all the dragons at once, who foolishly all decides to attack the same, harmless, single pixie that provokes them.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2016 04:31 PM |
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Maybe creatures of that world are more emotional than we give them credit for 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 19, 2016 04:38 PM |
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No no, I think it's the same. Every time I play cs, if I shoot at someone, everyone instantly looks around at me and gets shot in the back. 
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 19, 2016 04:40 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
I agree it's strange that one pixie can suck up the retaliation of 1000 dragons. The way I like to think about it is that the pixie baits out an attack from all the dragons at once, who foolishly all decides to attack the same, harmless, single pixie that provokes them.
Well, perhaps after a bit of equation between stacks, dragons could simply pass by and trample too weak stacks without having even to spend action on them.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2016 04:57 PM |
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Or a compromise: the unit sucking the retaliation must be of equal or greater level than the target. So to suck a retal from dragons, must be one level 7 at least.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 05:05 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:06, 19 Apr 2016.
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Retaliation should be player controlled, so as to choose when to retaliate or not. Either a general rule, a creature role ability or a hero skill. Would work fantastically with taunt units or a cover system, proven by D3.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 19, 2016 05:09 PM |
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You could also go about it another way: display "small" stacks as a multiple of units, in the same space as a single unit of a "large" stack. So essentially for instance instead of "1 pikeman" you have "1 pikemen regiment", which has visibly 7 pikemen on the tile. The regiment has the same strength as the single pikeman currently, so it's just a visual scaling. Numberwise, nothing changes.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 19, 2016 05:11 PM |
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Wouldn't mind that tbh.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 19, 2016 05:32 PM |
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Well, if we only consider retaliation as reaction mechanic. Never fancied much units adamantly retaliating as the only reactive move. When units, just few, started displaying different mechanisms of reaction, a broader range of possibilities started to follow.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 06:48 PM |
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I can remember having suggested for discussion to not make retaliation mandatory, but optional (I have no opinion on that).
So units could basically "ignore" an attack, keeping their retaliation. This would spice things up with the consequence of making single unit stuff losing options, because ignoring those would be a matter of course. I did imagine this to be interesting in "real battles": you attack a biggie with a middle-strong stack; now what? Retaliation will maul the attacker, but make the biggie wide open for group action. Don't retaliate, and the attacker may concentrate on other units, having slipped one through, unpunished.
The problem I see here is, that it would be difficult to make the AI competent and unforeseeable.
A compromise solution would be for example, the following: if a unit is attacked AND has a retaliation left AND another attack on the unit is possible this round that would kill at least one unit, if the attack doesn't kill a unit it is simply ignored. (Dragons are locked with Angels and get stabbed by a few pikemen, the angels not having taken their turn, the dragons ignore the scratch.)
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 06:55 PM |
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some damn great ideas in this thread. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 19, 2016 07:04 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
A compromise solution would be for example, the following: if a unit is attacked AND has a retaliation left AND another attack on the unit is possible this round that would kill at least one unit, if the attack doesn't kill a unit it is simply ignored. (Dragons are locked with Angels and get stabbed by a few pikemen, the angels not having taken their turn, the dragons ignore the scratch.)
Then if the attack doesn't kill a unit and being ignored, you use 7 stacks of such things, then cast blind between 6th and 7th attack. Which means you attacked 6 times without any retaliation. Next turn you start again, because only when they will kill one there will be a retaliation. Not easy.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2016 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:22, 19 Apr 2016.
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That scenario would only be possible in Heroes 3 at best. In Heroes 5 initiative and speed work differently and the casting a spell is only possible at a certain point and not any time one of your creature gets to act. And I would never have any other system than the ATB one which is the next level in my opinion, but just goes to show the power of assumptions - some people talk about things thinking of Heroes 3, others of Heroes 5 and so on. Yet I could see the point about the AI waiting for a better retaliation and losing the opportunity for any at all, but that's something that could be fixed. It's not like there's no other alternatives to be considered for AI behavior.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 20, 2016 08:52 PM |
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Either way, these are all ideas how to improve combat. There weren't many things changed since Heroes IV; the only thing is that the hero can attack and cast abilities (rather than just using spells) and even having that faction ability from Heroes VI. There was also the feature that allows every unit to damage the walls (and towers) in siege combat.
So things like morale decrease for each slayed unit just give it a bit of freshness to it, I think. It can be balanced, though, that's for certain.
There is also the idea to use the terrain to the advantage. Surely one giant unit could throw a rock or a clever unit could cut a tree to fall on the enemies.
Otherwise, what would you propose? There are certainly some things that should renovate the combat, rather than making it stale and boring, like it was done in Heroes VI.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 20, 2016 10:05 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
So things like morale decrease for each slayed unit
I'm not sure of the exact formula is but I know that in Heroes IV if troops are in a single stack and that stack is decimated the moral lowers according to the percentage of the losses suffered, so probably if you're using single unit stacks it doesn't lower the moral that much. I didn't tested it tough and I don't have Heroes IV installed at the moment.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 21, 2016 08:52 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
EnergyZ said:
So things like morale decrease for each slayed unit
I'm not sure of the exact formula is but I know that in Heroes IV if troops are in a single stack and that stack is decimated the moral lowers according to the percentage of the losses suffered, so probably if you're using single unit stacks it doesn't lower the moral that much.
Nah, -10 morale regardless of stack strength  Like most other features it wasn't particularly thought out but still, a step in the right direction.
EnergyZ said:
Otherwise, what would you propose? There are certainly some things that should renovate the combat, rather than making it stale and boring, like it was done in Heroes VI.
There are plenty of possibilities really. 2x2 or 3x3 battlefield areas with special effects(soak/heal/weaken/ignite etc), elemental combos, spells creating special areas on the field, neutral armies being commanded by neutral heroes, new battlefield additions like wasp hive, combat objectives(kill x stack within y turns, keep z stack alive, survive x waves of incoming enemies), abilities that can summon or remove unit stacks from combat and so on. Just a couple of those would give heroes a much richer gameplay.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 21, 2016 11:47 AM |
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Was it in HoMM IV you could have a battle with an easy win, but because your own units thought the battle was a sure loss, you'd get negative morale one round after the other?
Edit: Btw. large creatures aren't all bad. Taking up more squares can be a really good thing, as it can allow for easier terrain exploit, block more resurrection targets, block dragon breath, and more as well I'm sure.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 21, 2016 12:01 PM |
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Elvin said:
combat objectives(kill x stack within y turns, keep z stack alive, survive x waves of incoming enemies)
These are actually added in Heroes VI and Heroes Online. At least for the campaigns, that is.
Elvin said:
Nah, -10 morale regardless of stack strength Like most other features it wasn't particularly thought out but still, a step in the right direction.
I think so as well. But it is somewhat odd to see certain people complaining how that hardly is a good thing. Battles should simply evolve, not just in abilities or the battle field layout.
OhforfSake said:
Was it in HoMM IV you could have a battle with an easy win, but because your own units thought the battle was a sure loss, you'd get negative morale one round after the other?
A good reason why you need a god-like hero to take on the army himself/herself. Dang, those were crazy times.
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