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| Thread: 48 classes says 3DO |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 04:38 AM |
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48 classes says 3DO
Yeah, I read on their web site the game boasts 48 character classes, but I have to say this is very deceptive. The classes aren't unique enough.. they only have a small bonus, and no unique abilities. A general gets +1 morale to troops.. Wow.
I think each of the advanced classes should have more than just one bonus, they should have at least 3 to make them more unique. They should also have unique combat abilities, such as..
Bard: Can play a song in battle. Once played, it is like buffing the rest of your troops.
Necro: Can animate dead once per battle or raise skeletons as an ability.
Paladin: Can Lay on Hands and Turn Undead as an ability once per battle.
Druid: Can shapeshift into animals for better melee attacks and more health.
Beastmaster: As an ability can summon animals into battle.
Thief: Steal stuff from enemy heroes, perhaps artifacts or resources you wouldn't normally get from winning.
Crusader: Attack does double damage to undead.
Wizard: Has a familiar that he can use as a scout on the adventure map, or an extra attack in battle.
You get the idea.. Each hero should have some ability as well. You can't really claim your game has 48 heroes if the differences between them are so minor.. They have the same appearance as your starting hero. I know it would be hard to balance, but you would truly get 48 classes, each being more unique than the rest.
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 17, 2002 07:59 AM |
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I dunno. I like the classes, but I wouldn't be opposed to change. But simple things like +1 morale can't be ignored. If you mix troops that aren't of the same alignment, that +1 morale (in addition to the +3 or whatever leadership gives) keeps your army happy and lets you have many varied troops.
That extra 10% chance of morale boost is very important.
Likewise, some classes' abilities are rather interesting. A dark priest (life magic + dark magic) is probably hard to do effectively, due to the fact that it's tough to get both skills without being lucky, and it's tough to make full use of life spells if you're using a death army (and vice versa), due to spells like prayer and such. So what do they get? Well, all spells at a 2 SP discount! To me, that's a pretty nice incentive to try a rather odd combination.
Most classes are boring, I'll give you that, but some are interesting, so I can't complain.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2002 08:19 AM |
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A lot of the 'bonuses' that each class has is smaller than the bonus from secondary skills.. even basic level.
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 17, 2002 11:39 PM |
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Yes, but it's a bonus you wouldn't otherwise have. +1 to morale may not seem like much, but when combined with the +3 or 4 from leadership, it's a 33% or 25% boost (can't remember if GM Leadership is 3 or 4). I agree that there should be more diverse bonuses, but nothing huge, otherwise you'd have heroes that are far too powerful.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 18, 2002 09:39 AM |
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Well if it's not going to be powerful, they really shouldn't brag about having 48 distinct classes.. They are not distinct enough.
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LordHonrad
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 18, 2002 08:08 PM |
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Huh!I agree with Jenova........
The differences between the classes are fairly too small....
I can't see the difference between an Enchanter and a illusionist.
Some common classes:Knight,priest,thief.....even don't have their special ability,well that makes 11 "named" classes..
Is that a cheat or.......
In fact,I hope that they can have their special abilities
even though the game will become unfair.......
I hope that a crusader can be resurrected immediately even if he was killed in battle,the Arch-mage can learn all the 5 align magic........etc
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 18, 2002 09:31 PM |
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Uh, the 11 base classes already say they have no special ability. You have to become an advanced class to have a special ability. As for them not being able to say "48 classes", why not? In Heroes 3, they had a bunch of classes and the "special ability" was very mundane. They may have a bonus to a skill (a very weak bonus, mind you) or a bonus to a certain monster stack. But they still said there were 18 classes.
At least in heroes 4, you can make a conscious effort to get certain class abilities. If you like to cast spells, go for archmage. If you like summoning nature creatures, go for summoner. If you want the "special" summons, go for demonologist (nature + death I think). Yes, some classes have the same bonuses as others (like +1 morale vs. +2), but most classes are interesting enough to enjoy without being overpowering.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 19, 2002 03:57 AM |
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Well 18 classes vs 48..
There's a big difference there. H4 should claim to have 11 classes, and 37 'sub' classes with minor bonuses. They are not really that advanced if they don't get beyond a mere pitiful +1 morale. The differences between classes should go further.
You randomly give me the names of 5 heroes and I won't even be able to tell the difference between them without checking the manual. That's not good. For example: Wizard, Lich, Warlock, Heretic, Illusionist. They all sound fairly similar.. spellcasting heroes. No way I could tell the difference. Which is why I think they should have cut down on the number of classes but made them actually worth something.. something beyond +1 luck for the hero.
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CleansingFire
Hired Hero
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posted April 19, 2002 06:15 PM |
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I tend to disagree. I think the Heroes are fine as they are now, and giving them even more bonuses than they already have would make them too powerful, in my opinion. Also, the advanced classes give good and (for the most part) unique bonuses compared to the generic starting classes.
A +1 to Morale is one of the less spectacular abilities of the advanced Hero classes, but it is still a nice bonus to have. Also, one of the things that's good to remember is that advanced classes who already are maximizing their skill combinations tend to get less powerful bonuses than a class that is doing something less than optimal.
A perfect example is the General Versus the Lord Commander. The Lord Commander grants a +2 bonus to morale compared to the +1 bonus the General grants, but that is because the General is way more effective in Combat than a Lord Commander, because he is focusing on Combat and Tactics instead of Nobility and Tactics. I think it's good that NWC added that feature into the Hero classes, as it makes it worth it to combine less than optimal skills.
As for the Wizard, Lich, Warlock, Heretic and Illusionist, they all grant unique and useful bonuses, and I think they have plenty of variety. For example:
Wizard: The cost of all spells is reduced by 2. A very nice bonus.
Lich: Gains the ability to Age enemies. Aged enemies have their Attack reduced by 25%, their Defense reduced by 20%, and their Speed and Movement reduced by 50%. That seems like a fantastic ability to me.
Warlock: The spellpoints of the Hero increase by +10, and the Hero regenerates +1 spellpoints per day. Alright, even I have to admit this is a weak bonus, especially at higher levels.
Heretic: Hero gains the ability to ignore all effects from Wards. This one is great, but a bit too specific, in my opinion. Still, if you're facing someone using Life magic, it's a fantastic ability to have.
Illusionist: The effectiveness of all Illusion increases by 20%. Very nice bonus, increasing the power of Illusions is great, as it's one of the best spells in the game. A great class to have for any Hero using Order magic.
All of the above bonuses are unique, and useful in their own ways, although some are less useful than others, they all serve a useful purpose. A Wizard can cast more spells than any of the other four advanced classes thanks to the reduced cost of his spells.
A Lich can severely weaken enemy stacks with the Aging ability. The Warlock can cast slightly more spells and regenerates spellpoints faster than the others. The Heretic can negate one of the best things about Life magic. And the Illusionist can use Illusion spells with more effectivness than the other four. That seems to be plenty of variety to me. Like I said in the beginning of this post, I think the Hero classes are fine as they are.
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 19, 2002 11:27 PM |
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Ditto that... I was reading in the manual and my previous post was incorrect. The wizard is who I was thinking of when I said dark priest, with the 2 point cheaper spells... Imagine, having a mage staff in your hands and being a wizard... 
Anyhow, after reading through the manual I think the variety is great. The different combinations have some really interesting effects. Like a lich getting an aging attack... or a crusader with his permanent +10 morale. I said earlier that I thought the bonuses were strong enough, but that there wasn't enough variety. Now I think that almost all bonuses are strong enough and there's enough variety. Just because I can't name all 48 advanced class bonuses off the top of my head doesn't mean they're not unique. I mean, can anybody name what Crag Hack's bonus was in Heroes 3 without checking the game?
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2002 05:30 AM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 19 Apr 2002
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As for the Wizard, Lich, Warlock, Heretic and Illusionist, they all grant unique and useful bonuses, and I think they have plenty of variety. For example:
Wizard: The cost of all spells is reduced by 2. A very nice bonus.
Lich: Gains the ability to Age enemies. Aged enemies have their Attack reduced by 25%, their Defense reduced by 20%, and their Speed and Movement reduced by 50%. That seems like a fantastic ability to me.
Warlock: The spellpoints of the Hero increase by +10, and the Hero regenerates +1 spellpoints per day. Alright, even I have to admit this is a weak bonus, especially at higher levels.
Heretic: Hero gains the ability to ignore all effects from Wards. This one is great, but a bit too specific, in my opinion. Still, if you're facing someone using Life magic, it's a fantastic ability to have.
Illusionist: The effectiveness of all Illusion increases by 20%. Very nice bonus, increasing the power of Illusions is great, as it's one of the best spells in the game. A great class to have for any Hero using Order magic.
I think you missed my point. I know what the class bonuses are.. What I was saying is that their titles are all similar. They should have less of these, but make each one better. And if it gets too powerful, weaken them.. But I want combat abilities not mere bonuses. What is a Bard if he can't sing? A bard always has maximum luck. I'm sure that's how I've always seen bards in every game. Yeah, whatever.
An assassin is someone I've always pictured to be a killer, someone who poisons his dagger and kills his enemies unseen. In HOMM4 he merely gets +3 speed and +3 movement. A Monk is someone I've always imagined would shun the use of weapons and armor and instead opt for martial arts skills and using his bare hands in combat.
The heroes merely have a minor bonus to distinguish one another.. They aren't unique enough. It looks like NWC went for quantity over quality. You could shift the titles of some of the heroes but keep their bonuses the same, and it would still make sense. Warlock gets +10 spell points, and Wizard casts spells for 2 points less, but I could switch their names around and it would still fit. Notice that they that unique? Whereas in RPGs, I would never see a fighter play songs in combat because that's a bard's job. But if the abilities were like in HOMM4 I could call a fighter a bard if I want, since all he gets is a bonus to luck, which isn't a thing only Bards would be seen having.
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CleansingFire
Hired Hero
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posted April 20, 2002 01:35 PM |
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Jenova:
First, who cares about the titles? They are standard fantasy appellations for a given type of character. They work fine for me, and anyways, it doesn't really matter. "A rose by any other name....". And the combat bonuses are sufficient and make a noticable difference in battle.
Second, so what if a Bard can't sing? All Bards don't have to sing. That's _your_ point of view, and I think it would behoove you to remember that this is not Heroes Of Dungeons and Dragons, it's Heroes Of Might and Magic.
Third, about the Assassin... he works great as a killer because of his bonuses. His "mere" +3 to speed and movement allows him to move before any other Hero, and since he has Combat and Death as his primary skills, he will likely be able to kill the other Hero before he can even take one turn. Grandmaster Archery/Melee, Hand Of Death, etc.
And if you want a character that uses a poison attack, get a Ninja. Remember, this is not Heroes Of Dungeons and Dragons, and the stereotypes that exist in that game don't have to, and shouldn't, translate into this game.
Fourth, again the titles don't really matter. The bonuses are unique enough for me, and they make a significant difference in combat if you utilize them correctly. Also, I'd like to point out that this is not an RPG, it is a TBS with RPG elements. And once again, it shouldn't be a copy of Dungeons & Dragons. A D&D Bard is a singer/musician. A Heroes IV Bard isn't, and I have no problem with that.
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Wesley
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted April 20, 2002 01:50 PM |
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Sorry to say this mister KNOW IT ALL(Yuck you suck)
But in any mythology/fantasy/whatever game
A bard is suppose to sing! They always have some musical instruments with them... To sing a song of good morale, then his teammates get more morale.
Bard=Singer/fighter...
Not only in D&D
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CleansingFire
Hired Hero
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posted April 20, 2002 02:56 PM |
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Wesley:
Insults are never neccessary. And the stereotype of a Bard comes from the D&D game. It's nice to see NWC depart from it. A Bard should no more be required to be a singer than a Fighter should be required to wear platemail. Stereotypes are boring. I like the way NWC did the Bard in Heroes IV.
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Wesley
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
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posted April 20, 2002 04:54 PM |
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So your a boring guy..
There are already 1000000 fighters... It should only be nice if the bard is something different..
Yuck.
And D&D is not the first who made bard singers..
You know about Asterix and Obelix do you?
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2002 05:17 PM |
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First, who cares about the titles? They are standard fantasy appellations for a given type of character. They work fine for me, and anyways, it doesn't really matter. "A rose by any other name....". And the combat bonuses are sufficient and make a noticable difference in battle.
I do. It's confusing. The names are not distinct enough. Too many hero classes sound similar, so I can't tell their abilities apart (without checking the manual).
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Second, so what if a Bard can't sing? All Bards don't have to sing. That's _your_ point of view, and I think it would behoove you to remember that this is not Heroes Of Dungeons and Dragons, it's Heroes Of Might and Magic.
What's next.. A Cleric who can't heal? Dungeons and Dragons was not the first setting to use fantasy. It borrowed elements from other fantasy sources before it, such as Tolkien. Many elements generally get passed onto other settings and games. While I don't expect it to be translated identically, I do hope at least some things are in tact.
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Third, about the Assassin... he works great as a killer because of his bonuses. His "mere" +3 to speed and movement allows him to move before any other Hero, and since he has Combat and Death as his primary skills, he will likely be able to kill the other Hero before he can even take one turn. Grandmaster Archery/Melee, Hand Of Death, etc.
You keep bringing up their secondary and primary skills.. Remember, what makes the Assassin "unique" is his bonus to speed which no other hero gets. The Combat and Death are not what makes him special. Any hero can learn Combat and Death, and if they are sufficient enough in it, they can do the same thing you suggested. BTW.. Is the extra +3 speed enough to reach the enemy on the other side? I haven't used an assassin before. When I think of the name Assassin, I generally DO think of someone with abilities to murder. And yes, he can with his combat and death, but so can a Druid who has combat and death.
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And if you want a character that uses a poison attack, get a Ninja. Remember, this is not Heroes Of Dungeons and Dragons, and the stereotypes that exist in that game don't have to, and shouldn't, translate into this game.
Its foolish to "get a ninja" just because I want a poison attack. The way they've made the classes, no one really pursues a certain class for their bonus alone. Most classes (at least when I play) are decided by what skills I take, which is decided by what shrines or universities I visit early. I don't always get what I want, and I don't look at the table to aim for a certain hero. In fact, I don't even know what class I will end up taking until after it comes. Had the classes been more unique, I would, but as it is, I'd rather HOMM3's system where they have a Might hero and a Magic hero but each hero has a background which leads to a small bonus not unlike HOMM4's heroes. That way there aren't 48 titles to confuse the player with. I know it doesn't confuse you since you've memorized the 48 classes, but it does me. I constantly need to check the manual.
And at least SOME stereotypes should translate IMO. D&D is not the first fantasy setting ever created and the only setting to have bards that sing. They are known in other fantasy games as well.
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Fourth, again the titles don't really matter. The bonuses are unique enough for me, and they make a significant difference in combat if you utilize them correctly.
This bit we can agree to disagree on.
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Also, I'd like to point out that this is not an RPG, it is a TBS with RPG elements. And once again, it shouldn't be a copy of Dungeons & Dragons. A D&D Bard is a singer/musician. A Heroes IV Bard isn't, and I have no problem with that.
I do. Let's make a fantasy setting where Bards are "lucky", and Assassins can move further, Prophets who don't predict the future (increased defense is their bonus), Shadow Mages and Wardens who have extra ranged defense, Beastmaster who only gets a bonus to summon wolf spell, OK.. you can explain them away however you want, but I won't buy it. You will bring up their skills no doubt, which I'm not concerned about. Their titles I do care about. I learn the ability to move a bit faster, and I can call myself an assassin.. Cool.
A Druid has NO class ability (it's a starting class). Why call it a Druid then? Neither does a Barbarian, Necromancer, Mage, etc.. The naming means a lot to me, though it's fine with me that you don't care about it.
And again, D&D is not the only other fantasy setting. There are plenty of others which have elements in common to D&D. D&D isn't even the most original. As for the TBS with RPG elements, I'd like to see a bigger emphasis on the RPG elements.
And since you're happy with the way things are, and I can't do anything to change it, I guess it's pointless to continue this discussion.. Assuming you're not one of the designers of HOMM4, I'm glad you enjoy the game, so peace!
In the meantime, I'll go back to creating my fantasy world where anyone who learns to fight (combat) can be called a Barbarian.
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CleansingFire
Hired Hero
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posted April 20, 2002 07:07 PM |
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I do. It's confusing. The names are not distinct enough. Too many hero classes sound similar, so I can't tell their abilities apart (without checking the manual).
Well, I've never had that problem. The names and abilities are unique enough to remember without checking the manual, for me at least.
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What's next.. A Cleric who can't heal?
Why not? I wouldn't mind.
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Dungeons and Dragons was not the first setting to use fantasy. It borrowed elements from other fantasy sources before it, such as Tolkien. Many elements generally get passed onto other settings and games. While I don't expect it to be translated identically, I do hope at least some things are in tact.
But the D&D Bard is where the stereotype for Bards comes from, in my opinion. The "Bard" class doesn't even exist in Tolkiens books.
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You keep bringing up their secondary and primary skills.. Remember, what makes the Assassin "unique" is his bonus to speed which no other hero gets. The Combat and Death are not what makes him special.
His focus on Combat and Death is what defines him. His bonuses allow him to use those abilities better than other classes.
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Any hero can learn Combat and Death, and if they are sufficient enough in it, they can do the same thing you suggested. BTW.. Is the extra +3 speed enough to reach the enemy on the other side? I haven't used an assassin before.
It's best to have Grandmaster Archery or Grandmaster Death Magic if you want to fully maximize the Assassins bonuses. And yes, other classes can do what the Assassin does, but not as well.
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When I think of the name Assassin, I generally DO think of someone with abilities to murder. And yes, he can with his combat and death, but so can a Druid who has combat and death.
Ah, but the Druid cannot do it as well as an Assassin can. Put that Druid up against an Assassin, and the Assassin will win.
For example: Assassin attacks the Druid Hero who has Death and Combat skills... The Assassin gets to move first because of his Speed bonus, and he either casts Hand Of Death, (likely killing the enemy Druid) or he shoots the Druid with Grandmaster Archery. He does this before the Druid can move, taking the Druid out of the combat, fulfilling his role as an Assassin. That seems like a significant enough bonus to me.
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Its foolish to "get a ninja" just because I want a poison attack. The way they've made the classes, no one really pursues a certain class for their bonus alone.
I do.
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Most classes (at least when I play) are decided by what skills I take, which is decided by what shrines or universities I visit early. I don't always get what I want, and I don't look at the table to aim for a certain hero. In fact, I don't even know what class I will end up taking until after it comes.
Well, that's simply your approach to the game. I always plan out my Heroes and decide what I want them to be in advance. Both styles of play are perfectly valid in their own ways, and both have their own advantages.
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Had the classes been more unique, I would, but as it is, I'd rather HOMM3's system where they have a Might hero and a Magic hero but each hero has a background which leads to a small bonus not unlike HOMM4's heroes.
Well, I have to disagree here. I like HoMM IV's system much better than HoMM III's system. One of the things that always annoyed me about HoMM III was that their were certain Heroes that were the "best". Certain Heroes were much better to have because of the bonus they got, and I'm glad HoMM IV got rid of that in favor of a more balanced system.
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That way there aren't 48 titles to confuse the player with. I know it doesn't confuse you since you've memorized the 48 classes, but it does me. I constantly need to check the manual.
Well, that's just a difference in the way we think, I guess. I don't find it annoying to memorize the class bonuses, and once you do it's easy to figure out where your character is headed with his current skill choices.
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And at least SOME stereotypes should translate IMO. D&D is not the first fantasy setting ever created and the only setting to have bards that sing. They are known in other fantasy games as well.
Which took the stereotype from the D&D game and put in their game as well. I think a change from the "classic" interpetation of fantasy roles is fine.
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This bit we can agree to disagree on.
Agreed. 
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I do. Let's make a fantasy setting where Bards are "lucky", and Assassins can move further, Prophets who don't predict the future (increased defense is their bonus), Shadow Mages and Wardens who have extra ranged defense, Beastmaster who only gets a bonus to summon wolf spell, OK.. you can explain them away however you want, but I won't buy it. You will bring up their skills no doubt, which I'm not concerned about. Their titles I do care about. I learn the ability to move a bit faster, and I can call myself an assassin.. Cool.
The Assassin class is better at eliminating other Heroes than any other class in the game because of the speed bonus, in my opinion. So that doesn't bother me. You're right, I can explain the other ones in my way, but you would disagree. So why not just change the name of the classes in your mind? Call a Bard a Luckmaster, a Prophet a Saint, and so on. The name is irrelevant, in my opinion, and if you don't like it, change it.
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A Druid has NO class ability (it's a starting class). Why call it a Druid then? Neither does a Barbarian, Necromancer, Mage, etc.. The naming means a lot to me, though it's fine with me that you don't care about it.
Again, if you don't like the name, change it. And they have to call the starting classes something, don't they?
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And again, D&D is not the only other fantasy setting. There are plenty of others which have elements in common to D&D. D&D isn't even the most original. As for the TBS with RPG elements, I'd like to see a bigger emphasis on the RPG elements.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, then. I prefer the focus on the strategy elements over the RPG elements, personally.
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And since you're happy with the way things are, and I can't do anything to change it, I guess it's pointless to continue this discussion.. Assuming you're not one of the designers of HOMM4, I'm glad you enjoy the game, so peace!
Heh. I do like this game, but let me assure you I don't think it's a flawless game with nothing I wouldn't like changed. The Hero system could be improved a bit, but I think NWC did a good job, and I like it much more than the system used in Heroes III. Also, I am enjoying this discussion, so at least some use was served by it, eh?
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In the meantime, I'll go back to creating my fantasy world where anyone who learns to fight (combat) can be called a Barbarian.
Really? But, Traonsthil the Glorious, crusader against evil, swears he's a Paladin, not a Barbarian! Who knew? 
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 22, 2002 09:51 PM |
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Edited By: brody on 22 Apr 2002
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For the record, a bard does sing, as bards aren't just D&D, they were real. However, if a bard sang in a battle in medieval times, do you really think every single troop (including those 1200 archers five miles away from him) got their morale boosted? If you all want to go to the reality of things, a bard should boost morale of units only 1 space near him, and only by +1 (c'mon, a song won't boost morale THAT much), and an assassin can only slay heroes he catches by surprise, which in HOMM never happens - so his class ability is rather useless. And a monk isn't allowed to wear armor OR cast spells (vow of silence, of course), and they can't kill ANYTHING, because that's against their code... so once your hero becomes a monk, he's not allowed to do anything anymore, other than gather resources.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and a good general can boost morale much better than a bard, so bards would be truly useless in your system. Look at braveheart - that man (Mike Wallace or something?) could really inspire his troops, giving them victory against all odds. Show me a song that can do THAT... and yes, if you don't know, Braveheart was based on the real man, it isn't just a story.
Please, please please PLEASE quit assuming things should go a certain way based on your expectations. This is Heroes of Might and Magic, not some intricate RPG. If you want an RPG that focuses on "traditional" RPG elements, why on earth did you pick heroes? It was NEVER a traditional game of any sort!
As for the way heroes 3 did "class" bonuses, PLEASE! There was NO difference in heroes. A hero either had a resource bonus (+gold or +resource), a skill bonus, or a monster bonus. That's it. Might heroes were more likely to have a monster bonus than magic, that was probably the most significant difference. And that bonus never changed, no matter what. Your "might" hero may learn expert wizardry, and expert in all 4 magic skills, but his bonus was still +attack and +defense on hydras... how does THAT make any sense?
At least in heroes 4 we CAN choose how to develop our heroes. If you don't want to spend the time learning a few classes and looking other up from time to time, that's your problem, not the game's. I mean, I could make the same complaint of D&D games - you have to learn a TON of things about each class. Honestly, what're a bard's real abilities in D&D?
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 23, 2002 09:28 AM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 23 Apr 2002
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If you all want to go to the reality of things, a bard should boost morale of units only 1 space near him, and only by +1 (c'mon, a song won't boost morale THAT much)
I'd accept that. But also, since if you look at the large battlefield of Braveheart, you wouldn't expect a song to reach that far, but in a HOMM4 battle map, the units don't look like they are positioned very far from you, so the song just could reach the whole battlefield. It depends how far you want to go into this realism debate.
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and an assassin can only slay heroes he catches by surprise, which in HOMM never happens - so his class ability is rather useless.
Find another way to make him useful.. For example make him move silently (invisible) rather than swiftly (extra paces). When invisible, he might do extra damage for 'catching them by surprise'.
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And a monk isn't allowed to wear armor OR cast spells (vow of silence, of course), and they can't kill ANYTHING, because that's against their code... so once your hero becomes a monk, he's not allowed to do anything anymore, other than gather resources.
To compensate for his lack of armor, they traditionally have strong natural defenses and magic resistance. And to compensate for lack of weapons, their fists are very powerful. Lack of spells is their tradeoff. About not being able to kill anything, other games take liberties with that rule, so I suppose it would be fine.
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Oh yeah, and a good general can boost morale much better than a bard, so bards would be truly useless in your system.
So make it boost luck instead then..
(Bard songs in D&D do a variety of things, depending on what song he plays)
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Show me a song that can do THAT... and yes, if you don't know, Braveheart was based on the real man, it isn't just a story.
By the way, if you really care so much about the 'realistics' of things, why not talk about why a Prophet gets extra defense or an Beastmaster only has an affinity with wolves..
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Please, please please PLEASE quit assuming things should go a certain way based on your expectations.
I guess you could say that about anything that one could be opposed to, even the lack of a RMG.
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If you want an RPG that focuses on "traditional" RPG elements, why on earth did you pick heroes? It was NEVER a traditional game of any sort!
Out of loyalty I suppose. I've bought every HOMM before it, and just had to buy HOMM4. I didn't expect it to be a traditional RPG, but if they went so far with the classes system (to use many cool class names such as Bard, Assassin, Paladin, Archmage, etc..) I'd have thought they'd go all the way and have them make more of a difference than they actually did. I would be totally fine if they had just two classes for each town, but since they used such a large range of classes, I'm disappointed they meant so little (in my opinion). If you're going to make an assassin, you may as well go the full monty and make him assassinate things (in unique ways of course).
They way things are, no matter how loyally you defend the heroes, many of their abilities are not all that useful. For example, the Shadow Mage who gets +50% ranged defense.. Of all battles you get into, what percentage of your enemies will be ranged units, and with 7 possible targets what are the chances he will target your hero? Too much randomness. It will happen, but not near often enough to make the skill very useful. If every enemy was an archer and they always targeted your Shadow Mage, then the bonus would be a lot more useful. Same goes for the Bard with luck. They could attack any 7 of your troops, would they always attack your bard? If they don't, then the bonus isn't even put to use. And you could say the same for about half of the class bonuses. Understand? These skills are of limited use. If they turned them into abilities however, then you could use them whenever you wanted to. If I had a hero that was resistant to ranged attacks, then I'd WANT the enemy archers to attack my hero more often so I can take better advantage of my bonus, but it looks like the enemy is more interested in shooting the small stacks of leprechauns I have.
You could say the AI is intelligent by not 'wasting' their ranged attack one a unit that was resistant to ranged attacks, but that just brings about the irony of your 'bonus'. Similar to the Black Dragon who is immune to magic. You would think it would be cool that the Dragon takes no damage from powerful direct damage spells, but nope, instead they just target another stack of yours, so the bonus is not really used. And the downside is that beneficial spells don't work on them either, which makes their magic immunity somewhat more of a detriment than any real benefit. The same goes for many 'bonuses' that advanced heroes get for themselves (defense and resistance bonuses mainly).
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As for the way heroes 3 did "class" bonuses, PLEASE! There was NO difference in heroes.
Eh? There were no class bonuses, just each hero was 'unique' with a small back story which explained their small bonus. I thought the idea of unique heroes was cool. Not like an almighty Wizard who saves 2 spell points on each spell (with so many magic skills that enhance mana and spell regen rates as if you would ever run out).
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A hero either had a resource bonus (+gold or +resource), a skill bonus, or a monster bonus. That's it.
That's a pretty BIG bonus.. A hero who gets +350 gold, imagine how useful that would be in HOMM4 with gold being so scarce. That's better than Expert estates.
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And that bonus never changed, no matter what. Your "might" hero may learn expert wizardry, and expert in all 4 magic skills, but his bonus was still +attack and +defense on hydras... how does THAT make any sense?
Makes about as much sense as a Mage who becomes a Monk and gains resistance and defense bonuses, and then later "forgets" these newly learned abilities when he becomes an Illusionist.
The bonuses vs Hydras in your HOMM3 example I think were explained in his Bio. He had some history with Hydras, and that's why he kept the bonus.
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At least in heroes 4 we CAN choose how to develop our heroes.
As far as I remember, you could do that in the previous HOMMs as well, except for the primary skills, but after level 9 they begin to balance themselves anyway. But hey, you seem to care a lot about things making sense, so I don't see why a Might hero shouldn't have a tendency to learn might related skills, instead of a Mage who becomes a Monk and then a Thief, and then a Pyromancer, etc (and forgetting all their bonuses along the way with each change).
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If you don't want to spend the time learning a few classes and looking other up from time to time, that's your problem, not the game's. I mean, I could make the same complaint of D&D games - you have to learn a TON of things about each class.
True, but it doesn't become a memory game, because there are far fewer classes. There aren't really that many abilities for each class either. The abilities you will remember after using the class once. The rules and calculations will be handled by the game or the DM (if you're a newbie). They don't have 48 'classes' to remember the small bonus of.
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Honestly, what're a bard's real abilities in D&D?
He has a couple of songs to play (effects depends on the songs), has the ability to cast mage spells, can wear almost any armor, can use any weapon, has high lore so identifying items is easier for him, relies on his charms and charisma meaning exchanges with NPCs are more likely to go in his favor and he can bargain down items, and has the ability to pick people's pockets. Being a minstrel he can occasionally play a song to NPCs for a donation. Levels in 2nd edition allow him to advance very rapidly compared to other classes. To sum up, he is very versatile and can do many things, but is not a specialist in anything. A Jack of all trades but master of none.
That's not really a lot to remember if you've used the Bard once. However, without the manual I will never tell the difference between Wizards, Warlocks, Wizard Kings, Sorcerors, Fire Diviners, and other similar sounding names. It's too much of a memory game. You aren't likely to remember everyone's ability in HOMM3 either, but you will always remember the ones that are powerful and thus you like and will always look for in your games. Aine and Jenova I always try to get because they give +350 gold. The ones I don't care about, I don't need to remember.
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted April 23, 2002 12:54 PM |
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I've been following this discussion for a little while now, and while I don't fully agree with anyone, Jenova's last post in particular makes very little sense.
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To compensate for his lack of armor, they traditionally have strong natural defenses and magic resistance. And to compensate for lack of weapons, their fists are very powerful. Lack of spells is their tradeoff. About not being able to kill anything, other games take liberties with that rule, so I suppose it would be fine.
OK, so you're mad when 3DO does something new with the bard, because tradition and history dictates otherwise. But if other games have done something new with a class, then it's okay? This is completely inconsequent. Admittedly, Brody's view of monks is a narrow and "judgemental" (you know, you know about one kind of monk, and you automatically assume that all monks are the same), but your arguments still suck.
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That's not really a lot to remember if you've used the Bard once. However, without the manual I will never tell the difference between Wizards, Warlocks, Wizard Kings, Sorcerors, Fire Diviners, and other similar sounding names. It's too much of a memory game. You aren't likely to remember everyone's ability in HOMM3 either, but you will always remember the ones that are powerful and thus you like and will always look for in your games. Aine and Jenova I always try to get because they give +350 gold. The ones I don't care about, I don't need to remember.
Once again, it seems like your upset because they haven't tailormade the game after your preferences, or after your ability to remember things. It also seems like your mad because there are more usefull classes "The ones I don't care about, I have to remember". That was a weakness in HOMMIII, that some heroes were so poor that you could completely forget them. Now they've evened things out, and your grumpy.
In conclusion: Have real complaints before you start complaining
Play & Remember well
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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