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| Thread: 48 classes says 3DO |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 23, 2002 02:20 PM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 23 Apr 2002
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OK, so you're mad when 3DO does something new with the bard, because tradition and history dictates otherwise. But if other games have done something new with a class, then it's okay?
Only if its necessary. In the case of monks not being allowed to kill, I guess that does make for a silly game, but I believe D&D allowed evil monks as well so killing is fine for them. And in the latest rules, Monks can multiclass with other classes (ones that would allow killing).
Suppose though, D&D came up with some new set of rules where say a Priest couldn't do anything priestlike (such as heal) then I'd be just as pissed as I would if NWC did it. To be honest, I never knew about any rule saying Monks couldn't kill until Brody mentioned it. It's all about stereotypes really. I see a lot of chinese martial arts movies which have monks in it, and although they do try to be peaceful, they do kill a lot (usually evil people of course).
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Once again, it seems like your upset because they haven't tailormade the game after your preferences, or after your ability to remember things.
You're entitled to that opinion I guess. But a memory game, IMO isn't really necessary. HOMM's game rules you can remember easily after a few games, but remembering exactly what each class bonus does is like remembering the elements of a periodic table. Not a necessity.
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In conclusion: Have real complaints before you start complaining
Alright.
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 23, 2002 09:15 PM |
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heh, my monks example was just to point out that stereotypes can't work, not a suggestion of how monks really should be. I think the system is fine the way it is, and I most definitely don't want to see monks limited in killing ability!
As for ease of remembering, I can tell you off the top of my head what my favorite class ability is: Archmage, +20% to all spells, requires proficiency in 3 schools of magic. Once you've used a few classes a lot, it's not hard at all to remember. I can remember a few others, but I haven't played many classes extensively... but I couldn't tell you a darn thing that D&D Bard does, even though I just read it a few minutes ago. D&D has what, like 20 classes? Each with 4+ unique things about them? That's a lot of stuff to remember, but the difference is, in D&D you pretty much stick with one character (or if it's a computer D&D, maybe 4 or so), so you can concentrate solely on learning that character. In Heroes, you can have as many characters as you want, and each can be a different class, making much more information to try and recall at any given time.
As for unused bonuses... yeah, a black dragon will NOT attack your spellcasters first, because that would be STUPID. Why attack the hero/stack that can't hurt you when there are others in the battle who can hurt you? That wouldn't make sense. And giving a hero +10 luck (bard right?) and not having anybody attack is a GOOD thing! Your luck bonus makes creatures NOT want to attack him, making sure he'll survive better than other heroes! And a ranged defense bonus is great! If shooters don't target your hero you'll live a LOT longer. And I don't know about you, but most shooters target my heroes at every chance they get.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2002 08:52 AM |
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You're right. I agree, and I want to apologize to Brody, DonGio and CleansingFire if I've upset any of you. No offense was intended in this heated debate if it sounded that way. Peace to all, and continue enjoying the game.
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted April 24, 2002 09:07 AM |
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Offtopic: Moderator's note
Yeah, the debate has gotten heated at times, but I am very glad to see it stayed on topic and didn't degenerate into a flamewar. Personally, I love a good debate, and I am very pleased with this one. Thanks for the great job posting, all of you.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted April 24, 2002 11:38 AM |
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None taken & none intended
Debate well
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted April 24, 2002 07:44 PM |
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Nah, no offense... I'm always up for a good debate, especially one that doesn't constantly involve "you are stupid if you think that". In any case, I think we'll never see eye to eye on this one, Jenova, and I doubt I'll change your mind any more than you'll change mine... oh well, I can't win all the time 
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Xyron
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 24, 2002 11:46 PM |
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what a stupid suggestion, i really don't wanna have Baldur's Gate in Heroes 4!!! And anyway, those suggestions weren't original either...
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undead_wolf_...
Adventuring Hero
Undead Wolf Wrangler
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posted May 01, 2002 02:28 AM |
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Just wanted to add this...
It would be nice to have a bit more "uniqueness" to the hero classes, but this entire game is dependant upon balance. So any ability that sigificantly changes a Hero adds another level of playtesting and restructuring of unit and other hero class levels. I think if they went the route that Jenova is suggesting, it would certainly be fun, but it would be seriously unbalanced and would ruin the strategy involved.
Besides, there are plenty of games where you have the kind of character building you're asking for. Baldur's Gate or any other RPG incorporate those wishes.
I just think it would be extremely difficult to give those "super" special abilities without making the heroes too powerful or ruining the balance of the game.
But I do agree that they could re-examine the current specials the hero classes get. Some aren't particularly interesting.
One thing I WOULD like to see changed is that the appearance of the Heroes should reflect the new hero class they attained. As of now, there's no way to visually tell what types of heroes you're facing. And they should at least LOOK different. But unfortunately, whatever you start out as is what you look like no matter what you become later. For example, I'd expect a Necromancer (which looks like a Lich) would change appearance if they became a Ninja...
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"where's a damn werewolf when you need one?"
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brody
Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
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posted May 01, 2002 07:27 AM |
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now that I can 100% agree on. You may start as a mage, but if you spend your time with combat skills and become a general, you'll probably be done wearing your robe and kicking opponents... you'll wield a sword/bow and wear armor most likely.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted May 31, 2002 06:56 PM |
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When it comes the advanced classes there are a couple of things that bothers me in the way they've implemented it.
1. You can lose class abilities.
2. The names are too much look-alike.
3. You can gain the advanced classes too early. (Nothing to strive for in late game.)
4. The special handling of the Combat skill and how it affects advanced class abilities.
What I would like is a revamp of the names and the abilites you get as follows.
Define a number of classes which have certain pre-requisites in skills. Once you have the required skills, you gain special class abilities. Do note that the skill requirements will be much higher than now, so as to reduce the number of advanced classes a Hero can gain.
A Bard could for instance require:
Expert Nature Magic and Expert Scouting.
The class ability could be to add a specific 3rd level spell to the Hero's spell-book, and in this case a spell which only Bards would know. Bards would also be suitable to work as a Demonologist, that is 1 new spell for each level of Nature Magic and Scouting required.
A Prophet could for instance require:
Master Scouting and Expert Life Magic
The class ability could be to be able to ignore the first hostile spell or damage directed at the Hero in each combat. Another possibility is to add a specific level 3 Life Magic spell which gives the player a pop-menu which lists the exact composition of each "coloured" army travelling on the overland Map. Spell won't list composition of garrisons or towns.
The ability of the "Demonologist" could be kept as is. That is it gives access to new spells automatically depending on if the Hero has certain skills. In fact, it would be nice if many of the new classes worked in this way and simply added a new spell to the Hero's spellbook. Of course, this approach means that the Demonlogist bonus which increases the amount of creatures summoned would be lost.
Most of these classes should be obtainable around level 10-15, and with a bit of tuition at a few levels lower. A level 30 character with a lot of tuition would likely get bonuses from 5-10 advanced classes. So it will be important to make sure that bonuses don't stack up.
How many advanced classes there should be? Probably around 30-40. Right now it seems the names are duplicate or non-descript so reducing it might be worthwhile. At the same time you'd want to retain the fact that each two Primary skill will have at least one advanced class ability that can be gained. So this would indicate 36 as is the case now.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Orchomene
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 04, 2002 05:07 PM |
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I agree on the aspect of this debate as it makes sense...
IMO, those bonuses are optional... Why having bonuses where combinations of skill already give bonuses...
For exemple, an assassin already is a hero killer because he gets combat and death magic as primary skills, so he can already be called 'assassin' and a general gets the bonuses linked to combat and tactics...
In this way, I know that some combinations would be less interesting than others, but it's already the case... It's obvious for me that a necro is not really a good pretendant to become a life GM and it makes sense, don't you think so ?
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Signature reduces people to a simple view
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daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted June 05, 2002 05:17 PM |
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Quote:
You could say the AI is intelligent by not 'wasting' their ranged attack one a unit that was resistant to ranged attacks, but that just brings about the irony of your 'bonus'. Similar to the Black Dragon who is immune to magic. You would think it would be cool that the Dragon takes no damage from powerful direct damage spells, but nope, instead they just target another stack of yours, so the bonus is not really used. And the downside is that beneficial spells don't work on them either, which makes their magic immunity somewhat more of a detriment than any real benefit. The same goes for many 'bonuses' that advanced heroes get for themselves (defense and resistance bonuses mainly).
If you see things that way, every bunus agaist a certain kind of atack is useless, because you can simply target another stack.
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Sorry for my bad english...
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 05, 2002 07:51 PM |
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Im with Jenova:
1) The distinction that the adv. class bonusses bring between the heroes is too small.
2) There isnt much realism in it indeed.
ad1)
Well, if there is any difference between those hero classes it is because of the primary and secondary skills (and for magic even 2 of the secondary skills are same, just applying to another type of magic)
A wizard kings attack gives maximum negative morale, big deal, he is a spell-caster not a fighter.
Overall the bonusses are small indeed, Jenova has a good point that many bonusses are the same a base skill (or even less!).
What i would like to see is that you can choose yourself when to advance your hero class (but with indeed some requirements). Once chosen you cant go back to any other class and restricts learning any other skills not belonging to those that from the hero when advancing a level.
This would mean though that waiting until advancing would be good since you can learn the otherwise (by leveling up) unavailable skills. So it would be necessary that there also some negative restrictions to level up (you cant have too many off class skills).
The bonusses can be more more significant that way, a hero no longer 'forgets' such special skills, and you can actually choose to which class you change, and not just a result of the 2 most dominant skills (In which Combat and Scouting tend to be very dominant)
ad2) Not just the Bard.... A Lich who isnt undead... You can defend nwc all you want, but dont sell me 'youre glad they have broken with that tradition'.
And why on earth does becoming a lich depend an chaos magic??? i mean, a necromancer becomes a lich by using necromancy (death magic).
Also an option would be, in addition to the one-time advancement, to also have an advanced class with only 1 secondary skill:
Mage ==> Archmage (with an appropriate order bonus)
Druid ==> Greater Druid
Necromancer ==> Lich (at this time he should become an undead: no more morale, immune to Berserk etc)
Archer/Barbarian ==> Warrior
As this would severy limit all other advancements these would have the highest bonusses.
etc (this will mean some other classes would have to be renamed)
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted June 06, 2002 06:41 AM |
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Hmm.. not a bad idea actually. Upgrading the hero class.
I think the class bonuses are a bit small. But suppose you had expert in both secondary classes, the bonus should get bigger (or an extra bonus added). And if you had GM in both, it should get upgraded again.
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If you see things that way, every bunus agaist a certain kind of atack is useless, because you can simply target another stack.
Yes, that's right. Unless they could make the bonus invisible to the AI so he couldn't exploit it. But with the BDs, you can't even target them, so they can't help you absorb enemy spells. In addition you can't cast your own beneficial spells on them either. That's why in the past I've preferred Titans over BDs.
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 06, 2002 02:01 PM |
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'If you see things that way, every bunus agaist a certain kind of atack is useless, because you can simply target another stack. '
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No its defenitely not useless, take the Black Dragon example, so let them target another stack, the most important stack remains safe. Very important to have your most powerful troop is protected like that.
Furthermore, magic resistance/immunity also protects against creature abilities, and those abilities also trigger when YOU attack that stack (Thunderbirds, Medusas, Efreet, Ice Demons etc).
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poelzi
Hired Hero
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posted June 09, 2002 11:37 AM |
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Hmm it seems that most ppl see the reason of the adv. classes only in their boni. i think the boni are only a side effect (if i remember right they were added very late in development of heroes) and the main reason is to provide a strategy.
a strategy to choose what kind of skills will be offered
i think it is still underestimated how important it is to change the class at the right time to get a certain choice of skills each time a hero gets a level
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 11, 2002 11:58 AM |
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True, but what is really different from H3 then aside from that little bonus and some skills (within the same group) are sometimes dependent on each other?
They give the hero class another name, great, id rather had seen another creature level, if that was to be all about the hero classes.
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poelzi
Hired Hero
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posted June 11, 2002 12:09 PM |
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well i would say the biggest difference to h3 is that there is now more strategy involved in choosing skills:
you can no longer expect to max out all slots so u have to choose skills more carefully. u have also to be carefull what adv class u become but that will change the skills which u get offered. so in my opinion it is not the classbonus which is important but that u have a way to choose from which groups u get skills offered and there is much more strategy involved than in h3
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vitt
Hired Hero
banned
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posted June 11, 2002 12:14 PM |
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yeah classes should be extremely unique.
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Scorpius
Hired Hero
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posted June 11, 2002 01:03 PM |
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well i would say the biggest difference to h3 is that there is now more strategy involved in choosing skills:
you can no longer expect to max out all slots so u have to choose skills more carefully. u have also to be carefull what adv class u become but that will change the skills which u get offered. so in my opinion it is not the classbonus which is important but that u have a way to choose from which groups u get skills offered and there is much more strategy involved than in h3
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Certainly yes: A very good moveof NWC to make skills harder to achieve.
But really does it depend on 'advanced class'?
No it just depends on the skills you have developped. The fact that they give every dominant combination of 2 skills (and one of s 3 skills) a name is just not something really spectacular. At least not to me.
The bonusses could make that such class would be really unique so that you could actually go for the class, not achieving a class just because you wanted the skills.
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