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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 10, 2017 07:02 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 19:03, 10 Jan 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Also since when is there no relation between use of color and artistic direction?
There is a relation but it isn't what matters here, you cannot say the art from Tracy Iwata or Morisaku-Yu is similar to the one from H5 because both are colorful.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 10, 2017 07:10 PM |
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Heroes 5 has a very grotesque and exaggerated art style compared to the previous games which I do not like because I think it is ugly and garish (Heroes 1 also has ugly and garish creatures just to show that I am very neutral and not biased at all) lol
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2017 07:40 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:43, 10 Jan 2017.
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Yes, and it is neither realistic nor illustrative (like in H2), it just looks like someone designed medieval fantasy with sci-fi in the back of their minds. Everything looks edgy and robotic.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 10, 2017 08:01 PM |
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This is all true, if H5 was a painting in a museum, but it is a game that is primarily made for fun and entertainment
H6 and H7 have showed especially how good the graphics of H5 actually are. In H5 the fat peasants, sexy witches and muscular orcs all fit perfectly together in the same context and are very well animated.
H6 has technically better graphics but the factions are excessively color coded so creatures are hard to discern from each other on the battlefield. With h7 people found out desaturation makes that even worse. H5 is color coded by exactly the right amount and upgrades are really huge visual improvements over the downgrades. While in the later games the differences are often too minor. Also FX are an important factor in games. The armageddons and meteor strikes from H5 are much more epic and entertaining than the ones from H3.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2017 08:09 PM |
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First of all, it is the playability that entertains in a game, the visuals are about style. And you sound like someone who enjoys a movie more when the explosions are bigger, while I would simply find a quality cinematography to be more "entertaining" than garish, overblown effects that simply end up giving you the feeling that the visuality of the game is raw and.... once again, tasteless.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2017 08:25 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:29, 10 Jan 2017.
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The visuals are very much about entertainment as well and it doesn't exactly take a genius to figure that out.
Honestly, after reading the recent conversation, I believe Magnomagus' display of knowledge makes his arguments the most compelling.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 10, 2017 08:32 PM |
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@Artu: My point was exactly how the quality of execution of all visual elements of H5 have improved the playability of it, so you misinterpreted me. H5 is not overblown, all tension is scaled to the right amount.
...and on an irrelevant side note, I'm not much into action movies.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2017 08:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:45, 10 Jan 2017.
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If a game has real bad visuals you may find it less entertaining because that may cause an overall dislike towards the game, but the visuals of a game is not directly the aspect of it that entertains you, visuals may impress you, what basically provides the actual entertainment is playing the game though, not looking at it.
magnomagus said:
@Artu: My point was exactly how the quality of execution of all visual elements of H5 have improved the playability of it, so you misinterpreted me. H5 is not overblown, all tension is scaled to the right amount.
...and on an irrelevant side note, I'm not much into action movies.
But they didn' improve the playability, the map (and the editor) was a mess, units looked (as you agreed) bad, it wasn't practical in terms of interface either, the town screens looked cool, yes... but that gets old real quick.
About the side note, it was an analogy.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2017 08:36 PM |
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I have to say that I disagree with you, artu (happens rarely, but in this case...).
I think, that the art direction in H5 is actually a pretty good one. It starts with a GROTESQUE Inferno (the Succubae are spot-on, for example), involves a GOTHIC Necropolis (color-coded black-green which is pretty spot-on as well), has a very yellowlighty-azurblue PALE Haven (with the Biara-red faction alternatives being a lot more edgy), comes with the concept of native-American Elves, which isn't that bad a faction idea, and ends with a Warhammer Dark Elfen Dungeon - which is of course not a very original idea, but the problem is that the Warlock faction has been raped by H3 already, mutating, as the article says from a Warlock/mystical monsters creature to a subterranean Rome and after that to "Chaos", so Dungeon has been a problem before they got Nauglir Riders.
I also disagree with Magnomagus that H5 is basically all H3 - it's not, and there are a lot of examples, starting with the fact that the game features just one hero type per town.
However, this is a discussion that leads to nothing. Heroes hat its thematical weet spot in H2, there is no arguing about it.
When you want "fantasy realism" nothing beats Disciples 2 - which also is THE campaign came. A game, however, is the sum of all its parts - and then a lot more as that, so this discussion is flawed: different people with different tastes are prioritizing different things.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2017 08:43 PM |
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You are talking about conceptualization of the factions, I'm directly talking about the graphic style. I mean, if someone prefers H2 over H3 because of "the magical ambiance," H5 certainly can't be seen as return of style because it had nothing to do with the cartoonish look of H2, on the contrary, everything was very robotic and raw, to the point it harmed the medieval feeling more than any realism could.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 10, 2017 09:10 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 21:13, 10 Jan 2017.
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I don't understand that argument of a museum and Heroes 5 is more playable, isn't this the opposite,
Heroes 5's visuals are not only worse but also less entertaining/playable for me because it sacrificed that to offer a lot of eye candy above everything else, but now looks very dated so there is no long term gain lol
for example the size of the maps is much bigger than H3 in terms of number of tiles but they are clogged with vastly oversized objects, everything is much too tall and much too big for a board game and we have trees and mountains and stalactites **** regularly getting in the way everywhere making it hard to see at a glance, plus it's anti-tactical because you can't really perceive the grid of tiles outside the editor to plan your moves, not very gamey lol
in previous Heroes you can get a great overview of a town screen or a battle at a glance, it's easy to click on a building or to know which creatures are in a battle immediately, while in H5 one is busy rotating cameras and operatic eye candy town screen vistas or creature reaction shots when hit in battle, distracting from what you are doing lol
it is also very easy to roughly tell which H5 factions were created in what order because some creatures are rendered in more primitive and lower quality 3D than others, especially the expansion factions stick out as newer and more fancy schmancy ones closer to what Erwin wanted, I disagree they were very coherent lol (although in H3 it's the same with the 3D hero portraits which I also think are dumb) lol
in terms of the effects it's also less intuitive because of the bad camera angle and in less memorable/intuitive effects, for instance everyone remembers the good morale and good luck effects of Heroes 3 because they are crisp, clear and memorable, while in Heroes 5 I have to follow the combat log to know what is going on lol
I would love to make a mod to fix this garbage but I have no talent and most of it seems to be hard coded lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2017 09:14 PM |
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I still disagree. 
I think, that H5 is actually very close to H2 - except where H2 is all smooth and round (look at how Dwarves fall to the ground, for example) and colorful, but not garishly so, H5 is all spikey, clunky, punky and absolutely garish... Which is completely fine and doesn't hurt anything at all, simply because it's not meant to be fairy-talish in a playful sense.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 10, 2017 09:15 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I think, that the art direction in H5 is actually a pretty good one. It starts with a GROTESQUE Inferno [...] involves a GOTHIC Necropolis [...]has a very yellowlighty-azurblue PALE Haven [...]the concept of native-American Elves, which isn't that bad a faction idea, and ends with a Warhammer Dark Elfen Dungeon [...]
This isn't art direction this is factions thematics.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 10, 2017 09:19 PM |
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Quote:
H5 certainly can't be seen as return of style because it had nothing to do with the cartoonish look of H2, on the contrary, everything was very robotic and raw, to the point it harmed the medieval feeling more than any realism could.
While I have no clue what you mean by robotic (does anyone?), this is really just your opinion. I can see the difference in creature style between these games, but the game is a lot more than just creatures. The H5 adventure map is really the H2 adventure map in 3D. Many objects are totally 3 dimensional clones of H2 objects, even the landscape like the H5 desert is totally the h2 desert.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 10, 2017 09:29 PM |
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magnomagus said:
The H5 adventure map is really the H2 adventure map in 3D. Many objects are totally 3 dimensional clones of H2 objects, even the landscape like the H5 desert is totally the h2 desert.
With Xuxo's patch or your mod I say it starts to resemble an HOMM game, but without it no way it's Warcraft all over the place mate.
I can't believe I'm reading this.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2017 09:42 PM |
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Well, the first time it had been said that the graphics are "ugly and garish" + "edgy and robotic," you replied "this is all true, if H5 was a painting in a museum, but it is a game that is primarily made for fun and entertainment" and now you switch to "says you." When discussing about style, a level of subjectivity is inevitable for sure but what I mean by robotic is how clear-cut edgy and metalic the units are overall and how overwhelmingly digital they feel, unlike the previous games. A very good example would be this:
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 10, 2017 09:42 PM |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2017 09:49 PM |
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted January 10, 2017 10:00 PM |
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Quote:
When discussing about style, a level of subjectivity is inevitable for sure but what I mean by robotic is how clear-cut edgy and metalic the units are overall and how overwhelmingly digital they feel, unlike the previous games.
In H5 lore academy is a faction of mages using mechanical constructs into battle, so obviously those are going to be robotic. how you apply that to the entire game is beyond me? Try finding a robotic sylvan creature...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2017 10:09 PM |
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But the mechanical golem of H3 doesn't feel robotic in the modern sense, does it. As I said, it's about how digital and clear-cut they look in terms of style. Take this dragon for example, rather than a mythological creature, it almost has the vibe of a space alien. So if one's hooked on the fairy tale style of H2, the visual style of H5 is even a step further from the moderate realism of H3:
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This thread is pages long: 
