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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 10:36 PM |
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For a thread supposedly about the future of a game it's wading suspiciously through the past.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 10:38 PM |
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One must understand the past, if he is to know the future, my child. 
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CountBezuhoff
Supreme Hero
Nihil sub sole novum
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posted June 12, 2019 10:48 PM |
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"To see Ashan's future, you must look at Ashan's past."
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 11:32 PM |
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They should pull a Heroes 4 with Heroes 8. Only fitting. A blast from the past so to say. The flash, the page, then selling the M&M rights and repeat the cycle. Eventually we'll get that defining Heroes game again.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 13, 2019 01:07 AM |
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bitmaid said:
something fresh would be nice.
Of course something fresh would be nice. No one is denying that.
Rather it is the quality of that freshness that is in question.
H6 was a train wreck in some aspects and the community felt extremely cheated. The distrust of Ubi was there and that is why H7 was a flop. I was part of those people who bought H6 and was incredibly let down by it. It felt hollow. And I don't think I will ever touch H7.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that, while in Ubi's hands, the Heroes franchise will be mediocre at best. And everyone in this community would never deny a new game in the series, we hope for a new game, but will we be let down again? No one knows.
So until then, I will stick with H3 and its mods.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 06:52 AM |
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I think, I'm sick and tired meanwhile, to read the same crap ever and ever again. Yes, Heroes games, even 5, with Ubi lacked. But the reason isn't that Ubi wanted to grab cash or didn't care or whatever.
The reason is, that Heroes, in its core, is a fast, smallish game, that is more tactical than strategic, and gets all the weaker and more boring the bigger it is blown up.
The difficulty is to bolster the main game "engine" - which is a fast-paced "one more turn" experience - with enough substance to make it a bigger thing than it was. In today's gaming world H3 is a mobile game - a good one, mind you. And that's what the Chinese do. They filter the main substance out of the game and compress it into a mobile experience. Have a hero. Have a couple of creatures. Fight on a smallish battlefield to get more creatures, level-up your hero, make a few builds and get more and better creatures and a couple of goodies.
That's the easy thing. The difficult thing, and that is, what didn't work for Ubisoft, not even with 5, in full, is keeping that structure and at the same time adding substance and depth to get a simple but complex PC STRATEGY game, that is more than what has been H3, but still keeps the soul intact.
This becomes glaringly obvious when you look at H7 which basically tries to be kind of an upgraded version of H3 and fails abysmally, because the game in comparison feels clunky, ugly, and, somewhat bewilderingly, boring. The game is no fun.
But that's not because Ubisoft didn't seriously try. It's because the whole design concept is flawed.
And that's why the past isn't helping here. If you want to make a good game in the tradition of the old heroes games, we are talking mobile games. If you want to make a good game in the tradition of old heroes games, but on a grander scale - an "epic" grand strategy PC game, selling for 59.99 - you need something else that you won't find in the past.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 08:06 AM |
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monere said:
@Su_Lang_Manchu....
... graphics alone will not make a game replayable, but it sure adds to the overall impression, which is what creates replayability. Also, it is a strong personal preference, but when most of the players have the same strong personal preference like mine... the consensus is set
My first encounter to H3 has been in 1999 when I've been in college. I have never played H1 and H2 before, nor have I heard anything about them previously because I've had no friends that were even remotely interested in TBS. My friends (and myself, too) would play FIFA 99, Quake, and Starcraft most of the time 
I've not liked H6, so I haven't played it much, but from the little that I've played I remember that I've disliked it. Hasn't been H6 who have had Mistresses?!? I don't remember.... Also, isn't also H6 who's had the faceless... whatever the hell those things were?!? Again, I don't remember but if any of these is true, then I have liked the faceless whatever the hell those things were, but I totally disliked the Mistresses. I mean this is a mythology-based game, not a porn movie lol
Dungeon in Shades of Darkness is one of the most well designed factions in the whole franchise.... strong personal preference, and, unlike mine, yours is really not shared by many players, which means that this preference of yours weighs even less than mine (which is actually a popular opinion among HoMM fans  )
Now I can see the point. I think, now i can explain, why HoMM3 is so popular among Heroes community:
1) Design of creatures - well, it's defaultly mythical. If someone will try to imagine griffin or minotaur, he will definitely think about something, like creatures from HoMM.
2) Fairy text messages for every interactive object.
3) This is the game of its own time. Simple, but not stupid game mechanics, low competition with other genres and games.
The thing is also that about 70% of HoMM fans played HoMM3 first. Statistically the first game played in any series is considered by players as the best. Shortly - nostalgia. And if the majority calls something best, then the rest agree.
Yep, I am simple man - I always try to find solid criteria in such things. 
So, back to the Dungeon example. The reality is that HoMM 5, 6 and 7 gives player a lot more core-different tactics to play. Yep, Nival crossed the line with mistresses design (and overall Dungeon altergrades have no synergy), but Dungeon in HoMM5 can be played as: Lethos, who is effective against fast and iniciative factions, Eruina-cryomancer with her shooting-witches, Sinitar aka nuclear boi, battle Dungeon with Kythra and ext.
HoMM6 and 7... well, they have some solid disadvantages, but still - I can say, that combat in these series gives you much more variety.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 08:34 AM |
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Caliostro said:
HoMM6 and 7... well, they have some solid disadvantages, but still - I can say, that combat in these series gives you much more variety.
It may very well be, but combat alone doesn't make for a great TBS game... which is obvious from the fact that most HoMM fans dislike these 2 games.
To everything else you've said I don't know what to reply LOL... I mean, I've already said in a previous post why H3 is popular, so not sure if your 3 bullet points are the reason since the reason is, simply, replayability
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Elvin 
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 13, 2019 09:40 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
I think, I'm sick and tired meanwhile, to read the same crap ever and ever again. Yes, Heroes games, even 5, with Ubi lacked. But the reason isn't that Ubi wanted to grab cash or didn't care or whatever.
The reason is, that Heroes, in its core, is a fast, smallish game, that is more tactical than strategic, and gets all the weaker and more boring the bigger it is blown up.
Back when I played aow2, the single most important difference that I found was that homm just plays smoother and faster. That caries an appeal of its own.
JollyJoker said:
H7 [...] feels clunky, ugly, and, somewhat bewilderingly, boring.
I'm still confused how H7 combat turned out boring, that should not be possible. H3 has fewer unit abilities and is still far more exciting.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 09:53 AM |
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monere said:
Caliostro said:
HoMM6 and 7... well, they have some solid disadvantages, but still - I can say, that combat in these series gives you much more variety.
It may very well be, but combat alone doesn't make for a great TBS game... which is obvious from the fact that most HoMM fans dislike these 2 games.
To everything else you've said I don't know what to reply LOL... I mean, I've already said in a previous post why H3 is popular, so not sure if your 3 bullet points are the reason since the reason is, simply, replayability
I mean, that HoMM3 replayability depends largely on personal perception. If we will start to compare HoMM3 and HoMM5 replayability, we will find out, that technically HoMM5 has more features. Therefore, this series has more potential for replay. In the remaining mechanics it is the same HoMM3. The only objective advantage of HoMM3 I can call right away is faster AI turns. But personally HoMM3 is the best for the most part of fans.
Sometimes it becomes a problem. For example, i usualy heard from HoMM fans things, like: "Ive played HoMM6 for 20 minutes and dropped it", but Ive seen people, who firstly played HoMM6 and only after that HoMM 3 or 5. They usualy told me something like: "HoMM35? Yeah, thats still ok, but the plot is pretty boring".
That is how important our perception.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 10:39 AM |
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Quote:
HoMM3 replayability depends largely on personal perception
It depends largely on the multitude of elements combined well enough to give multiple options of getting the same result (winning).
The trick with a game like HoMM is not to have as many creature abilities as possible, as many effects of as many artifacts as possible, as many spells as possible, as many creatures, heroes, and towns as possible... all these things HELP TREMENDOUSLY in creating replayability, but if the main ingredient misses - which in the case of H3 is mixing all these elements together to provide the same result (winning) in many different ways - then replayability will miss. This is where H3 shines, and the others don't, despite of, theoretically, having more spells, alternate creature upgrades, more combat screen options (initiative for example), and so on.
Having more of everything in a strategy game is always welcome, but it's not what makes the game replayable indefinitely.
Quote:
If we will start to compare HoMM3 and HoMM5 replayability, we will find out, that tecnicly HoMM5 has more features
exactly what I've said above. It's not the multitude of features / options that makes a game replayable, it's the way you synergize and make all these elements give you the same result in a logical, fun, and mysterious way
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Therefore, this series has more potential for replay.
potential is one thing, the end result is a total different thing, mate. And people play games for the end result, not for the potential
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The only objective advantage of HoMM3 I can call right away is faster AI turns
really? Is that the only advantage that HoMM 3 has over its subsequent versions? I think not even you believe in what you've just said
Quote:
Ive seen people, who firstly played HoMM6 and only after that HoMM 3 or 5. They usualy told me something like: "HoMM35? Yeah, thats still ok, but the plot is pretty boring"
I wouldn't know cause I've never played a single campaign of any HoMM game. I rarely play campaigns in video games, I just dive right into the action ... So, I wouldn't know if the plot is boring, or not (could be, but I don't know nor do I care). If they find it boring it's their preference. Let the men have their own preference, it's only natural that people like different things
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 13, 2019 11:01 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 11:01, 13 Jun 2019.
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Stevie said:
They should pull a Heroes 4 with Heroes 8.
You mean, Ubisoft should go bankrupt right after its rushed release and then being sold to another game company?
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 13, 2019 11:16 AM |
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Including the destruction of Ashan in the game's intro  
I am of course joking, no setting is safe from ubi's fantasy writers.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 11:20 AM |
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monere said:
It depends largely on the multitude of elements combined well enough to give multiple options of getting the same result (winning).
The trick with a game like HoMM is not to have as many creature abilities as possible, as many effects of as many artifacts as possible, as many spells as possible, as many creatures, heroes, and towns as possible... all these things HELP TREMENDOUSLY in creating replayability, but if the main ingredient misses - which in the case of H3 is mixing all these elements together to provide the same result (winning) in many different ways - then replayability will miss. This is where H3 shines, and the others don't, despite of, theoretically, having more spells, alternate creature upgrades, more combat screen options (initiative for example), and so on.
Having more of everything in a strategy game is always welcome, but it's not what makes the game replayable indefinitely.
This is exactly what i am talking about (if we are talking about HoMM5) - it works. Nearly all grades of creatures are usable, but for different tactics. "Pro gamers" and ordinary players can use a lot more tactics to win, then in HoMM3. You you will get a lot of joy, when you will understand, why and where you need each perc in skillwheel and each grade of creatures (not all, but the most, just as in HoMM3). And you will get even more joy, when you will see, how your knowlege affects the battle right now.
monere said:
really? Is that the only advantage that HoMM 3 has over its subsequent versions? I think not even you believe in what you've just said
If we are talking about HoMM3 and HoMM5, than yes. But for me it would be interesting to hear your arguments in favor of HoMM3 (aside from design - its just different: another world, 3D)
It looks, like you don't catch the point. My example with HoMM6 players was to show you, how "first in the series" effect affects our perception.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 11:40 AM |
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Quote:
This is exactly what i am talking about (if we are talking about HoMM5) - it works. Nearly all grades of creatures are usable, but for different tactics
and how is this different for H3? I have seen players purposely taking 1 wight along with them in the battle, and that wight has proven crucial in winning that battle. Not the hundreds of Archangels, not the hundreds of Ancient Behemoths, but a simple (meaningless) wight
Quote:
You you will get a lot of joy, when you will understand, why and where you need each perc in skillwheel and each grade of creatures (not all, but the most, just as in HoMM3)
I do like H5, but not more than H3, and will never liked it more than H3. I have played it for a few years, and even though I like the skillwheel, and some of the creatures (the pitlords are totally bada55 when compared to those in h3), h5 has more minuses than h3 in what concerns me.
The first thing I don't like about h5 is the 3D. Strategy games and 3D graphics should never be mixed together. The second thing is the heavily saturated colours. I've been wearing glasses since I was 8 (I'm 39 now), and after 2 hours of playing h5 my eyes and head hurt from all of the striking visuals. No bueno....
Third thing that I don't like about h5 is the fonts: they're too cursive for my poor eyes, and they're color is so dull, as well. I can barely see them.
Fourth thing I don't like about h5 is the cartonnish design of spells, as well as their number. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's less spells in h5 than in h3. No bueno again for a game which is newer and, supposedly, better than the benchmark in the industry (h3)
Quote:
And you will get even more joy, when you will see, how your knowlege affects the battle right now
This hasn't worked for me with h5, but it's a true statement
Quote:
But for me it would be interesting to hear your arguments in favor of HoMM3
I don't know what you mean. Care to re-phrase?
Quote:
It looks, like you don't catch the point. My example with HoMM6 players was to show you, how "first in the series" effect affects our perception.
my bad. I tend to miss the point a lot of times. I guess I need better glasses ... Anyway, sorry for missing the point. I agree that first impression plays an important role for some people in assessing the quality of a game. For me, first impression matters indeed, and it might be one of the reasons I have stuck with h3 for so long. But it's not the only reason, because h3 delivers on many other levels, as well, when compared to its successors, and I've already mentioned the reasons in multiple comments on this thread
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 01:09 PM |
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monere said:
and how is this different for H3? I have seen players purposely taking 1 wight along with them in the battle, and that wight has proven crucial in winning that battle. Not the hundreds of Archangels, not the hundreds of Ancient Behemoths, but a simple (meaningless) wight
You see? Im not saying, that HoMM5 is better, its the same HoMM3, but more. It has more usable strategies, It has more usable strategies, it has more sinergy between creatures, it has more mechanics and percs, which suits design and philosophy of each faction.
monere said:
I do like H5, but not more than H3, and will never liked it more than H3. I have played it for a few years, and even though I like the skillwheel, and some of the creatures (the pitlords are totally bada55 when compared to those in h3), h5 has more minuses than h3 in what concerns me.
The first thing I don't like about h5 is the 3D. Strategy games and 3D graphics should never be mixed together. The second thing is the heavily saturated colours. I've been wearing glasses since I was 8 (I'm 39 now), and after 2 hours of playing h5 my eyes and head hurt from all of the striking visuals. No bueno....
Third thing that I don't like about h5 is the fonts: they're too cursive for my poor eyes, and they're color is so dull, as well. I can barely see them.
Fourth thing I don't like about h5 is the cartonnish design of spells, as well as their number. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's less spells in h5 than in h3. No bueno again for a game which is newer and, supposedly, better than the benchmark in the industry (h3)
No-no-no-, you cant be serious. 3D is subjective. I know persons, who still thinks, that ALL games should be in 2D. But what about Civilization, Warcraft, Starcraft? You will be dramatically overnumbered in this question, if we will continue to argue, focusing on tastes.
Fonts? That's the strangest remark of all that I heard. I don't think that if HoMM3 had the same fonts, any fan of HoMM3 would say:"What a terrible disappointment!" Again, criteria of design.
Magic? Sure, HoMM3 got more spells. Because HoMM3 got spells like "protection from earth", "water elemental" and etc. Also some of spells switched to creatures and racial abilities. Nival also had to remove a lot of supportcurse spells, cause of new initiative sistem and new hero percs. But yes, some spells we really lost, but also acquired no less interesting and usefull ones.
monere said:
re to re-phrase?
Youve answered this question in your previous sentences.
monere said:
my bad. I tend to miss the point a lot of times. I guess I need better glasses ... Anyway, sorry for missing the point. I agree that first impression plays an important role for some people in assessing the quality of a game. For me, first impression matters indeed, and it might be one of the reasons I have stuck with h3 for so long. But it's not the only reason, because h3 delivers on many other levels, as well, when compared to its successors, and I've already mentioned the reasons in multiple comments on this thread
Looks, like we are comming to the point.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 01:38 PM |
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Quote:
I don't think that if HoMM3 had the same fonts, any fan of HoMM3 would say:"What a terrible disappointment!"
I would. If something hurts my eyes why would I not complain about it, or ditch that thing? Health is more important than a game
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No-no-no-, you cant be serious. 3D is subjective
Ok, maybe 3D itself is not an issue (I've just remembered that h4 has also been 3D, and it's been pretty cool), but poorly implemented 3D could be an issue
Quote:
I know persons, who still thinks, that ALL games should be in 2D. But what about Civilization, Warcraft, Starcraft?
I'm not one of those persons. And yes, those games should be 3D, but not HoMM... well, not as long as it's crappy overall, anyway
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You will be dramatically overnumbered in this question, if we will continue to argue, focusing on tastes
I won't be overnumbered because there's already a general consensus that h3 is better than h5
Quote:
Looks, like we are comming to the point
um... ok?
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 02:25 PM |
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monere said:
I would. If something hurts my eyes why would I not complain about it, or ditch that thing? Health is more important than a game
I'm not one of those persons. And yes, those games should be 3D, but not HoMM... well, not as long as it's crappy overall, anyway
Quote:
I won't be overnumbered because there's already a general consensus that h3 is better than h5
I meant question of "3D strategies". Thats why i mentioned Warcraft and Starcraft. Try to say that Starcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 are bad because they have "crappy overall 3D", unlike their predecessors. The graphics in Warcraft 3 worse, than in HoMM5, but people love it for its heart - gameplay.
And thats im talking about - consensus does not means truth. This consensus has been reached between fans of HoMM3, just because the overwhelming majority were playing HoMM3 first. See? You nearly said, that you prefer the right fonts and 2D instead of superior mechanics and game design in a strategy game.
It is the cornerstone of nostalgia.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 04:08 PM |
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Edited by monere at 16:12, 13 Jun 2019.
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Quote:
Try to say that Starcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 are bad because they have "crappy overall 3D", unlike their predecessors.
they are not TBS games, though...
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And thats im talking about - consensus does not means truth
so, if people say that something is good it means they lie? Yeah, no thanks! I'm not buying this
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This consensus has been reached between fans of HoMM3, just because the overwhelming majority were playing HoMM3 first
how do you know what the majority of them have played first? Has a poll been taken on this topic? I'm not interested in the results, I just want to take it, too, cause I like taking polls
Quote:
You nearly said, that you prefer the right fonts and 2D instead of superior mechanics and game design in a strategy game
1) "nearly" doesn't equal agreeing;
2) the right fonts and 2D... yes, I prefer 2D for a HoMM game, not for any strategy game, because Starcraft would look horrible in 2D. As for the right fonts, a "right font" can be anything that doesn't hurt my eyes (I told you I hear glasses). I'm not as picky as you're trying to make me seem. I just want a font that can be easily read, I don't think I'm asking for much here considering how many thousands of fonts are there
3) superior mechanics... what are those superior mechanics you are talking about? H3 has superior mechanics to all other HoMM games, so not sure I'm understanding you here
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 13, 2019 05:32 PM |
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monere said:
And thats im talking about - consensus does not means truth
In the Middle Ages, people came to a consensus that the Earth is flat. Were they right?
monere said:
how do you know what the majority of them have played first? Has a poll been taken on this topic? I'm not interested in the results, I just want to take it, too, cause I like taking polls
Here is the interesting part. I missed such poll. It would be realy interesting to make two polls at the same time: "Which of HoMM series is your first?" and "What is your favorite series of HoMM?".
monere said:
1) "nearly" doesn't equal agreeing;
2) the right fonts and 2D... yes, I prefer 2D for a HoMM game, not for any strategy game, because Starcraft would look horrible in 2D. As for the right fonts, a "right font" can be anything that doesn't hurt my eyes (I told you I hear glasses). I'm not as picky as you're trying to make me seem. I just want a font that can be easily read, I don't think I'm asking for much here considering how many thousands of fonts are there
3) superior mechanics... what are those superior mechanics you are talking about? H3 has superior mechanics to all other HoMM games, so not sure I'm understanding you here
Ok, fonts for people with poor eyesight. But this is not a problem of the game, as a strategy. Far from a major one.
HoMM5 is based on HoMM3 mechanics, but its improved. Better percs, better sinergy of creatures. Unique percs and abilities for each faction, not just for Necropolis.
Simple example - you can buy Magnetic golems, which could be healed from magic damage. You can also buy Archmages, who can cast fireballs, which power can be improoved buy Obsidian Gargoyles. You can also directly support your golems with Master gremlins, or counter enemy golems with Gremlin saboteur. You can also help your golems with Storm titans cloud. And this is sinergy just among the creatures. There is nothing like that in HoMM3.
And now, I repeat my question, what exactly is better in HoMM3? (again, if we are not talking about visual aspect)
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This thread is pages long: 
