Quote:In the Middle Ages, people came to a consensus that the Earth is flat. Were they right?
duh!
Quote:Ok, fonts for people with poor eyesight. But this is not a problem of the game, as a strategy. Far from a major one.
it is for me because it stops me from playing the game more
Quote:And now, I repeat my question, what exactly is better in HoMM3? (again, if we are not talking about visual aspect)
geee, here we go again...
1) REPLAYABILITY (which comes from many different aspects of the game, some that you wish, and some that you don't wish to admit, like multitude of creatures, towns, artifacts, spells, and ultimately graphics, which as much as you hate to admit, does play a major role in the replayability of this game as most creatures are gorgeous, and the adventure map is crystal clear and all of the objects on it are easily identifyable)
2) meaningful artifact upgrades (any of these 6 artifacts come with cool bonuses: angelic alliance, bow of the sharpshooter, armor of the damned, elixir of life, power of the dragon feather, titan's thunder)
And there's other artifact combos that are cool (magic well, sea captain's hat, etc.) but those 6 impress me the most. Now, I'll be honest and admit that I don't remember many of the artifacts in h5, but I do remember that I've been disappointed by their number, as well as their bonuses when I used to play this game many years ago.
3) more, and better spells. Again, I don't remember too many spells from h5 since I have last played the game years ago, but if I open up the wiki page and go through the spells I will remember most of them, and I'm sure I won't find more than 10 spells that I used to like and use on a daily basis. Whereas with h3, I can name at least 20 spells that I like without thinking too much about it, and for which I always find good uses. For example, until playing WoG and having a hard time defeating the Hell Hydras I have not even considered quicksand to be a worthy spell. But since the bloody HHs can't be slowed, blinded, or berserkered I have had to look into alternatives, and that's when I've noticed how useful of a spell quicksand can really be. And there's more of these spells that are less popular, but still useful. I can't say the same about h5 spells
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monere said:2) meaningful artifact upgrades (any of these 6 artifacts come with cool bonuses: angelic alliance, bow of the sharpshooter, armor of the damned, elixir of life, power of the dragon feather, titan's thunder)
Just a little something to add to this. The combination artifacts can be seen as the pinnacle of a faction's power. Angelic Alliance = Castle, Cloak of the Undead King = Necropolis, etc. etc.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
monere said:
1) REPLAYABILITY (which comes from many different aspects of the game, some that you wish, and some that you don't wish to admit, like multitude of creatures, towns, artifacts, spells, and ultimately graphics, which as much as you hate to admit, does play a major role in the replayability of this game as most creatures are gorgeous, and the adventure map is crystal clear and all of the objects on it are easily identifyable)
2) meaningful artifact upgrades (any of these 6 artifacts come with cool bonuses: angelic alliance, bow of the sharpshooter, armor of the damned, elixir of life, power of the dragon feather, titan's thunder)
And there's other artifact combos that are cool (magic well, sea captain's hat, etc.) but those 6 impress me the most. Now, I'll be honest and admit that I don't remember many of the artifacts in h5, but I do remember that I've been disappointed by their number, as well as their bonuses when I used to play this game many years ago.
3) more, and better spells. Again, I don't remember too many spells from h5 since I have last played the game years ago, but if I open up the wiki page and go through the spells I will remember most of them, and I'm sure I won't find more than 10 spells that I used to like and use on a daily basis. Whereas with h3, I can name at least 20 spells that I like without thinking too much about it, and for which I always find good uses. For example, until playing WoG and having a hard time defeating the Hell Hydras I have not even considered quicksand to be a worthy spell. But since the bloody HHs can't be slowed, blinded, or berserkered I have had to look into alternatives, and that's when I've noticed how useful of a spell quicksand can really be. And there's more of these spells that are less popular, but still useful. I can't say the same about h5 spells
Hahaha, finaly we are stepping the hard ground.
"Gorgeosness" of creatures cant be measured. And i dont hate graphics, but nowdays newcommers, who knows nothing about HoMM, prefer 3D. Try to ask anyone who has not played yet. I tryed and the results are not on the side of HoMM3. But ok, identification of objects - thats important. I agree, this thing is better.
1) Artifacts
Quantity over quality - there are too many repeatable items, like +2/+3/+4/+5/+6 might. There are 3 items, which gives you +1 luck/morale for the same slot. And, speaking of meaningful artifact upgrades http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_artifact_sets.shtml As you can see, there is much less repetative artifacts in HoMM5. At the same time, some of the artifact effects were replaced by something else. Fo example:
"Admiral's hat" = "Snatch" perc.
"Spirit of oppression" = more balanced artifacts with morale decrease effect.
But ok, I can agree, that some of artifacts were realy interesting. On the other hand the sets of artifacts in HoMM5 have intermediate bonuses. Also much less repetitive artifacts.
2) Spells
https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Heroes_V_spells
Again, there are a lot of repetitive spells, like "Protection from earth/fire/water/air" in HoMM3, which is waste of place in magic guild. Speaking of spells, in HoMM5, I would prefer use all dark spells, if i play, as necromancer, nearly all light spells, if i play as a knight and all spells from chaos, if i play as a warlock. Because the game itself encourages such choice by its mechanics. And I have no need in modifications to understand this. But I also can play differently to achieve the same result.
And lets not to forget ability to upgrade effects of nearly all spells.
Examples are good.
"Whereas with h3, I can name at least 20 spells that I like without thinking too much about it, and for which I always find good uses." - Could you list them all?
Well, there is certainly a future for Heroes 3, unlike all other sequels. New towns, mods to come, maps, campaigns, fixes, and so on - it never stops or fades away. Alas, there is no future for Heroes overall, imo, as developers just don't know anymore how to make "have a crush" games. Then fans became too picky about worthless details, like all spells/skills/heroes being useful - look, when you cook a master meat, not all recipes are of same quality, the trick is how you mix good and less good to get that unique taste.
many things (if not most) in life can't be measured / quantified, and this is becomes especially true the more you dissect something.
Maybe "gorgeosness" of creatures cant be measured (I really don't know), but for me they are gorgeous and that's all I need to know. With a few exceptions, h5's creatures are uglier than the ones in h3 and it's mostly because of bad 3D graphics. On the other hand, many of the 3D creatures in H4 are also gorgeous (I like the Black dragons for example, the dragon golems, the gold golems, the champions, the swordsmen, the hydras, the efreeti, the unicorns, the faerie dragons, the cyclops, thunderbirds, nomads, even the harpies). You can't even compare the colossus from h5 to the titan form h3, so - while this might not be measurable - it's crystal clear which creatures are more gorgeous. At least to me. If you refuse to see this, it's your problem
Quote:ry to ask anyone who has not played yet. I tryed and the results are not on the side of HoMM3
of course that not 100% of the players will like the same things but that doesn't mean that most of the newcommers prefer 3D, either.
Quote:Could you list them all?
all? Um, well I like most of them, so I'm not gonna list all of the spells that I like cause there's lots of them. But here are my favorites:
slow, haste, cure, bless, blind, berserk, frenzy, air shield, counterstrike, dimension door, shield, quicksand, resurrection, town portal, implosion, forgetfulness, weakness, teleport, prayer, stone skin
Not sure why you're trying so hard to make me like h5 more than h3 (I'm not even a good homm player), but it won't work. Like I've already told you (countless of times) I have played both games, so when I say that h3 is better I actually know what I'm talking about cause I recall the experience I've gotten out of each game
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Salamandre said:Well, there is certainly a future for Heroes 3, unlike all other sequels. New towns, mods to come, maps, campaigns, fixes, and so on - it never stops or fades away. Alas, there is no future for Heroes overall, imo, as developers just don't know anymore how to make "have a crush" games. Then fans became too picky about worthless details, like all spells/skills/heroes being useful - look, when you cook a master meat, not all recipes are of same quality, the trick is how you mix good and less good to get that unique taste.
Daddy Sal is right, as always. I'd probably gobble up any Heroes game they throw at me and I'd still find a way to enjoy it, but it certainly wouldn't draw me in the same way Heroes 3 has done for so many years or Heroes 1 is doing now (having finally bought it a few days ago)
Quote:And now, I repeat my question, what exactly is better in HoMM3? (again, if we are not talking about visual aspect)
- Better game pace.
- Linear faction balance, factions not becoming overpowered or underpowered after x weeks.
- No sluggish, exploit-based creeping. Good players are known for having 45 min turns to kill ridiculous amounts of neutrals with barely any army.
- Much better UI and information overview in general. H5 needs 3 screens to show what the H3 hero screen shows in one. Superior creature hiring screen. Kingdom overview. Etc.
- Hexes work far better than tiles and 1x2 large units work better than 2x2.
- No skills that can make your earlygame ridiculously easy like war machines. No 2% rare skills that can turn your faction completely overpowered like enlightenment for orcs/haven or dark for sylvan.
- No dependence on mass spell abilities while you don't know which spells you will encounter. You either risk getting the wrong mass perk(s) or delaying and not getting them later.
- Far more varied spell pool and spellcasting combinations because H3 supports multiple schools whereas in H5 even 2 can be dead weight for most factions.
- Exceptional atmosphere that H5 cannot match.
- Unique terrain like magic plains, clover field, cursed ground etc.
- Creature bank outline where you start surrounded.
- No ridiculous amounts of randomness. H5 luck and morale with an easily-reached 50% chance, making a joke out of tactical planning. Or random unit atb ranging between 0 and 25%. Or random hero order that can completely screw you up in light vs dark battles. In that chaotic environment, you can cast two mass spells in one turn with effects like +60% damage or +40% initiative.
I will be the first to argue that H5 often has better mechanics, certainly deeper combat and the better skill system but still, H3 outshines it in certain parts.
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You could just say, that until Homm 3 (and even 4) the main goal and purpose was to let players have FUN! Whether it's lore, game depth, game balance, strategy, tactics ... FUN. You could play the games every which way, but fun was the constant factor.
And that's what changed, when goals have to be reached, canons had to befollowed, weight had to be gained. That's the main thing. Starting with 5 (yes) the games have become more and more unruly, ungainly beasts, like the Church of Elrath with the Inquisition and a lot of dead canonical weight around the neck, slowing things down, sucking up all momentum, all creativity - and all the fun.
monere said:
Maybe "gorgeosness" of creatures cant be measured (I really don't know), but for me they are gorgeous and that's all I need to know. With a few exceptions, h5's creatures are uglier than the ones in h3 and it's mostly because of bad 3D graphics. On the other hand, many of the 3D creatures in H4 are also gorgeous (I like the Black dragons for example, the dragon golems, the gold golems, the champions, the swordsmen, the hydras, the efreeti, the unicorns, the faerie dragons, the cyclops, thunderbirds, nomads, even the harpies). You can't even compare the colossus from h5 to the titan form h3, so - while this might not be measurable - it's crystal clear which creatures are more gorgeous. At least to me. If you refuse to see this, it's your problem.
I dont think its a problem, cause i dont think, that its true. But I can show you, what can be measured. Holy trio of game design: visual aspect, history aspect and efficiency aspect, which supports each other.
Lore describes titans (from HoMM5) as proud man-made creatures, made of metal and charged with powerful air magic. Can we get this information from their appearance? Yes - they have metallic skin, their bodies rounded by lightnings and winds, they steps hard and sounds like living Colossus of Rhodes. Moreover, one of their animations (standing with one hand shielding their eyes) is a reference to real Colossus of Rhodes. So technicly, titans from HoMM5 are more "Titanic", then in HoMM3
But lets get back to the trio. Does such appearance and lore of the titans support their strength? Yes - they are really strong and expensive units with abilities to bring the storm on the battlefield. Also their attack animations supports their lore and strength. Both titans from HoMM3 and HoMM5 have a proportional, powerful physique. Thats ok.
And what about titans from HoMM3? These creatures are incredibly strong. Their helmets and armour references us to Ancient Greece culture. Effect of their swords shows us, that they have powerful thunder weapon. But its harf to identify materials of their bodies, cause of pixels. Also their "animations" and sounds gives us no additional information, unlike their descendants.
To summ up: titans from HoMM3 have pretty strong conjunction of these 3 factors, but they are inferior to the titans from HoMM5.
HoMM4? You gotta be kidding me. According to technics they used to create things, like hairs, animations, materials and proportions, i can say, that models from HoMM4 are ones of the ugliest, ive ever seen in video games.
monere said:
But here are my favorites:
slow, haste, cure, bless, blind, berserk, frenzy, air shield, counterstrike, dimension door, shield, quicksand, resurrection, town portal, implosion, forgetfulness, weakness, teleport, prayer, stone skin
Do you understand, that nearly all spells from this list are also in HoMM5? "slow, haste, cure, bless, blind, berserk, frenzy, dimension door, resurrection, town portal, forgetfulness, weakness, teleport, prayer, stone skin" - same mechanics, same effects, but ballanced.
"air shield, shield, implosion" - renamed, reballanced.
"quicksand" - removed cause of 4x4 creatures and ATB system. Game still have analog in the face of a goblin-trappers ability. Also i want to notice, that "quicksand" was uncontrollable, therefore too situative.
monere said:
Not sure why you're trying so hard to make me like h5 more than h3 (I'm not even a good homm player), but it won't work. Like I've already told you (countless of times) I have played both games, so when I say that h3 is better I actually know what I'm talking about cause I recall the experience I've gotten out of each game
I dont try to make you love HoMM5. I understand, that it's nearly impossible. But i want to show you, that obviousness of tesis "HoMM3 is the best" is not so obvious from less nostalgic point.
Elvin said:
- Better game pace.
- Linear faction balance, factions not becoming overpowered or underpowered after x weeks.
- No sluggish, exploit-based creeping. Good players are known for having 45 min turns to kill ridiculous amounts of neutrals with barely any army.
- Much better UI and information overview in general. H5 needs 3 screens to show what the H3 hero screen shows in one. Superior creature hiring screen. Kingdom overview. Etc.
- Hexes work far better than tiles and 1x2 large units work better than 2x2.
- No skills that can make your earlygame ridiculously easy like war machines. No 2% rare skills that can turn your faction completely overpowered like enlightenment for orcs/haven or dark for sylvan.
- No dependence on mass spell abilities while you don't know which spells you will encounter. You either risk getting the wrong mass perk(s) or delaying and not getting them later.
- Far more varied spell pool and spellcasting combinations because H3 supports multiple schools whereas in H5 even 2 can be dead weight for most factions.
- Exceptional atmosphere that H5 cannot match.
- Unique terrain like magic plains, clover field, cursed ground etc.
- Creature bank outline where you start surrounded.
- No ridiculous amounts of randomness. H5 luck and morale with an easily-reached 50% chance, making a joke out of tactical planning. Or random unit atb ranging between 0 and 25%. Or random hero order that can completely screw you up in light vs dark battles. In that chaotic environment, you can cast two mass spells in one turn with effects like +60% damage or +40% initiative.
Finally. Ive waited for the comment like this. And i need more time to translate my thoughts on this.
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Quote:To summ up: titans from HoMM3 have pretty strong conjunction of these 3 factors, but they are inferior to the titans from HoMM5.
I don't care. I like them more... WAY more, actually.
Quote:HoMM4? You gotta be kidding me. According to technics they used to create things, like hairs, animations, materials and proportions, i can say, that models from HoMM4 are ones of the ugliest, ive ever seen in video games.
it's your preference. I like the all of those creatures that I've mentioned
Quote:Do you understand, that nearly all spells from this list are also in HoMM5?
well, you've got me here ... I honestly, don't remember how many of the H3 spells have ported to H5, but I still like the ones in h3 more, even for the simple reason of design, and their icons. Spells in h5 are too cartoonish for me taste. I don't really like cartoonish strategy games, which is one of the reasons I like DotA (the real one), and I hate LoL, although, probably, there's more strategy involved in LoL than in DotA. But DotA is for adults, LoL is for kids
Quote:But i want to show you, that obviousness of tesis "HoMM3 is the best" is not so obvious from less nostalgic point
if I regard it as being better, and it fascinates me more (and it does), it simply means it's better. Case closed!
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JollyJoker said:You could just say, that until Homm 3 (and even 4) the main goal and purpose was to let players have FUN! Whether it's lore, game depth, game balance, strategy, tactics ... FUN. You could play the games every which way, but fun was the constant factor.
And that's what changed, when goals have to be reached, canons had to befollowed, weight had to be gained. That's the main thing. Starting with 5 (yes) the games have become more and more unruly, ungainly beasts, like the Church of Elrath with the Inquisition and a lot of dead canonical weight around the neck, slowing things down, sucking up all momentum, all creativity - and all the fun.
I would say you are correct. Maybe nostalgia plays a part in the preference for the first three or four games, but I don't think anyone can deny that they are still meant to be played for you to have fun, and they are successful at that, unlike the ubisoft games. At least to me.
-off-topic :This reminds me a little of football, amd the people who used to say that it was more fun before all the big money and business matters kicked in.
monere said: I dont care. I like them more... I like the all of those creatures that I've mentioned
I still like the ones in h3 more, even for the simple reason of design, and their icons. Spells in h5 are too cartoonish for me taste. I don't really like cartoonish strategy games, which is one of the reasons I like DotA (the real one), and I hate LoL, although, probably, there's more strategy involved in LoL than in DotA. But DotA is for adults, LoL is for kids
I proposed criteria that exists regardless of my or your beliefs. You offered nothing in return except your opinion.
"if I regard it as being better, and it fascinates me more (and it does), it simply means it's better. Case closed!" Let me rephrase this - "if I regard that Earth is flat, and it fascinates me more (and it does), it simply means it's flat. Case closed!"
I apologize, could not resist. This is not against you, but the thing is that world stands not on our wishes and likes. And sometimes we cant get full joy from something new cause of our old beliefs.
But I am always open for such disputes. if anyone can make similar arguments, I will accept them.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 14, 2019 06:52 PM
no offense but it is a bit of a debate me,
if it is merely for fun and opinion exchange that is great but bear in mind most people are not interested or cannot be bothered to waste time debate this because those products of erwin mainly speak for themselves, thus do not take it too seriously lol
with poor products they are not really able to get redemption from a wall of text in a debate, they were already judged by the market and their own rock solid flaws or limitations (e.g. lack of modding possibilities, Heroes 3 will always be above them for that reason while Heroes 6 or 7 will forever be a garbage) cheers lol
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Quote:I proposed criteria that exists regardless of my or your beliefs. You offered nothing in return except your opinion
1) I have offered good reasons why h3 is better than h5 in my first replies to you, but you ignored them successfully and channel the discussion towards the topic you want, trying to make me like h5 more for god-only-knows what reason that only you know.
If you don't agree with me, no problem. Diversity is cool, but don't play mind games with me cause I don't like it. Only I am allowed to play mind games with unsuspecting rookies
2) the arguments you've brought up in our discussions are not your opinions? Cause there's only 2 possibilities here: they are yours, in which case you've brought your opinions to the table, as well, not actual facts... and 2) the opinions you've brought up are not yours, in which case it's even worse cause you're copying others ad-literam.
Quote:I apologize, could not resist.
no problem
Quote:but the thing is that world stands not on our wishes and likes
1) that's exactly what the world stands on: on our wishes and likes, with the mention that it stands on the wishes and likes of those who have the power
2) why do you always have to resort to off-topic arguments to justify how "good" h5 is? You're acting like some kind of lawyer who tries to discredit me by extrapolating my HoMM preferences to the outside world.
Quote:sometimes we cant get full joy from something new cause of our old beliefs
sometimes. But not this time. I truly, genuinely like H3 and it's not necessarily because of "old belief", but simply because H3 is too good. If your argument was true it means that I should like H4 at least as much as H3 since it's newer, but I don't, simply because it's not as good as h3.
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I'd still argue that HoMM 3 Titans have a way better design than their HoMM5 counterpart simply because you can actually spot them on the battlefield and aren't just a colourful blob, overshadowed by a number probably as large as them. HoMM5 has solid mechanics and decent graphics, but when talking about Heroes games simple things like perspective and sufficient enough creature size to allow visual contact with said creature may make or break your experience. Otherwise, the main gameplay element turns out to be a glorified version of that funny little CivIV battle animation most players have disabled. Heck, to be perfectly honest H5+ combat looks just like Hearthstone's, a frickin' card game, mind you!
I'd still argue that HoMM 3 Titans have a way better design than their HoMM5 counterpart simply because you can actually spot them on the battlefield and aren't just a colourful blob, overshadowed by a number probably as large as them. HoMM5 has solid mechanics and decent graphics, but when talking about Heroes games simple things like perspective and sufficient enough creature size to allow visual contact with said creature may make or break your experience. Otherwise, the main gameplay element turns out to be a glorified version of that funny little CivIV battle animation most players have disabled. Heck, to be perfectly honest H5+ combat looks just like Hearthstone's, a frickin' card game, mind you!
The Count
I agree. I don't really like the look of HoMM 5 Titans either. They don't have their armor, no sword, nothing. They just look like a giant. Whereas in HoMM 3 they have their sword, their armor. They look intimidating. In HoMM 5 they just look kinda cartoonish maybe?
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
It's not about nostalgia for me; why i enjoy and prefer homm3 above all the others. I started out playing homm1, then 2 when it came out, and finally 3. Never played any of the others, because i don't even consider them heroes games. Heroes is best played as a 2d game. Just like "grand theft auto" games are best played as 3d. They just play better that way. That's obviously not mentioning all the intricate reasons(moddability, map editor preference and expansions/tweaks thereof, creatures, abilities, etc); just covering the base reason i think homm3 is the best of the bunch. It expanded on 1 and 2; it didn't deviate from the original formula for a successful heroes game. That's where 4 and the other abominations went wrong: you don't CHANGE a winning formula; you EXPAND on that winning formula. There's a difference, and both nwc and ubisuck got that difference mixed up. What i don't get, is why they didn't retrace their steps to the winning formula, but instead expanded on the MISTAKES.
a) there is no "formula", and certainly no "winning" one. (The main reason is that tere are too many variables to factor in, not only in a technical sense, like game mechanisms, but also stuff like story-telling, atmosphere and so on, and how they relate.)
b) Heroes 4 is indeed different from H1-3, but in a very real sense MORE Heroes than those. Yes, there is a marked difference, that Heroes are on the battlefield, fight like creatures, can have personal stats and don't support the stats of their creatures automatically, but the other side of the coin is, that the player is more or less forced (as in, better play) to develop more than one hero, something that just doesn't work with the others where they are just dogsbodies.
NWC did everything right, concluding that H3 was the END POINT of a game series, because the game combines a maximum of fun and ease to play and handle with a very large amount of variation and decision making. You might say, that Heroes 3 has the balance of a) ease and fun (handling, map editor, game scale, length of turns, etc.) with b) game complexity (choices, variability, replayability and so on).
Even 3 is scratching already at the limits. XL maps with a sizable UG can drag. Campaign maps can drag. Game mechanisms get out of whack when the game gets out of scale - but it's more or less part of exploring the limits.
Improving/expanding on that is a hopeless task, because you'll always sacrifice something else for that.
That's why, if you want a new game firmly based on that, you should design a MOBILE game (which doesn't mean that cannot be ported to PC - Clash of Heroes is playable for PC as well, for example).
Heroes 4, on the other hand, is lacking in some departments (other than the AI). This is a game that certainly can be improved, without sacrificing anything.
I mean, see it this way. You can improve on H3 by mixing elements of H2, H3 and WoG, without adding anything what we don't have seen, yet. Which means, you can take what is already there and mod the perfect H3-look-alike.
That game has been done already. It's not the future - it's the past and the present.
Quote:Heroes 4 ... is a game that certainly can be improved, without sacrificing anything.
I actually agree with this statement. I have always wondered why h3 and h5 get continuous improvements but h4 doesn't since it's the most unfinished in the series but with the biggest potential of turning into something great.
Even if they've split the Necro town into 2 as they have intended (necro + inferno), added the corresponding creatures to each of the 2 towns, and also added upgrades for all creatures... these changes would be enough to turn the game into a much better one.
Ok, maybe they should do something about the striking visuals of the adventure map, as well, cause all those bright colours burn my eyes ... But that's easily fixable.
Probably it's too hard to implement these changes, who knows? But it's a pity. I have bought h4 from GOG and I'm just looking at it every now and then cause it's not that good to be played continuously. But I like it, hence why I've purchased it.
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This thread is pages long: 
posted June 13, 2019 06:10 PM
... But that's easily fixable.
