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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 17, 2019 07:16 PM |
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Thats what a I meant. Ubi doesn't care about the franchise. All they care about is money.
Also on the topic of Age of Empires. I am real pissed that it keeps getting new content and bs like that. I want Age of Mythology to get some new content. Give me the Aztec Pantheon. Give me the Hindu Pantheon. Give me the Japanese Pantheon. Like enough with Age of Empires.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 18, 2019 12:04 AM |
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Su_Lang_Manchu said:
the Dungeon line-up was the one that people voted for.
What kind of a dick move was it to tear apart the most popular creatures into different lineups and have the fandom vote for it though. Take the Sylvan example, put H3 Unicorn along H2 Phoenix and H5 Bladedancer I am convinced a huge majority would have been happy. But no.
Oddball said:
The most iconic monsters in both MM and HoMM have either been the Dragons or Cyborgs/Aliens.
FTFY. 
JollyJoker said:
FFS, NO! That's NOT it! It doesn't work that way.
Deny all you want, H5 mechanics evolution from H3 strongly disagree with you here. The players Ubi lost with H5 were due to 3D, art direction, game optimization. Not game design.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 02:42 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Oddball13579 said:
Ubi actually needs to take them time and sit down and look at what made the past games work, and then try there damnedest to copy that, while still adding new things that continue to add and not take away.
FFS, NO! That's NOT it! It doesn't work that way.
It WOULD, if they actually DID that. We'll never know, because they haven't, yet.
Everything after Homm3, is payback towards the fans for rejecting the Forge.
You know damn well i'm right. Deny this, and look like a fool.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 18, 2019 03:49 AM |
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Galaad said:
Oddball said:
The most iconic monsters in both MM and HoMM have either been the Dragons or Cyborgs/Aliens.
FTFY.
Ah very true. 
fred79 said:
Everything after Homm3, is payback towards the fans for rejecting the Forge.
Well I mean, completely different studios, art teams, owners, production staff, directors. So....no.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 18, 2019 07:02 AM |
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Nope. Definitely payback
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 07:34 AM |
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It's really unbelievable, how many people prefer to just go in denial here.
The creators of H3 THEMSELVES decided to NOT try and continue to build on H3. They will have had good reasons for that.
Then Ubisoft came along and decided to continue where the "most successful and popular" game left. But the truth is, while H5 is a good enough game, there is so much that could have been better and there is so much that is worse. And the next two games did it even worse. H6 has still has some interesting aspects, but H7 is just boring. It feels like a reanimated corpse.
Conclusion: Ubisoft has proven NWC right. It's as simple as that.
And as a PS: Does this game ring any bells?
Yes, someone decided to make H3 in space and the game is really, really bad (I have it, and I played for a few hours).
H3 is a really great game - but it isn't a great game because of its game mechanics.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 08:54 AM |
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Quote:
H3 is a really great game - but it isn't a great game because of its game mechanics
what?!?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 18, 2019 08:56 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 08:58, 18 Jun 2019.
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While I'm not in favor of an h3 'remake' I don't think nwc's decision to change or ubi's ineptitude prove anything. And besides, most will agree that h4 was a worse game than the previous ones, despite some pretty good ideas. Which again doesn't prove anything.
For me, the best reason why ubi should not even try to build from H3 is that they don't get it anyway. A badly copied idea would likely piss me off more than a bad new idea.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 09:21 AM |
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Oddball13579 said:
Caliostro said:
Some fans simply dont want to see anything, what is different from HoMM3.
Not true. I'd love to see some new things. For instance, I loved Sanctuary as a town. The Kirin were my favorite unit in that town.
Then you are not one of them 
Looks like @Galaad and @fred79 saw different meanings in the same message.
Also I would like to see something different from tbA in MM universe. "MM Showdown" was pretty interesting experience, (but too expensive).
I'm afraid, that players are not so interested in MM universe.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 09:34 AM |
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Quote:
A badly copied idea would likely piss me off more than a bad new idea
how can I upvote this? I'm dead serious about it
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 10:05 AM |
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monere said:
Quote:
H3 is a really great game - but it isn't a great game because of its game mechanics
what?!?
Yes. That has been one of the biggest errors in continuing the franchise - the assumption, since H3 had been such a ... well-loved and successful game, the game mechanics as such would have had to be great. But that's not the case. You know, the problem with game mechanics is that they are not worth anything without the context of the full game. Just go further back and have a look at the original HoMM, the first. That's the raw game. 4 towns, no upgrades for only 6 creatures, 4 different hero types, no secondary skills, no waiting in battles, a very small battlefield, just 5 army slots, very basic town building, Knowledge skill giving the number of each spell you'll have in your spell book, only 1 spell can be active on each creature (and a new spell dispels stuff on it - note how that is obviously - in hindsight - an elegant nerf for all buffs and debuffs) ... Campaigns are just a string of connected maps (to compare results for what is basically the same thing for each town).
And HoMM is a fantastic LITTLE game that plays incredibly well, especially since the smaller format means you don't have much time against an aggressive (cheating) AI. It's absolutely brutal in that sense.
That is your basic working HoMM game, and every change and addition made afterwards have pros and cons. For example - the waiting command. Makes battles, well, somewhat more complex and refined (and I don't know anyone who'd want to remove it), but is at the same time a nerf for the AI, making battles against the AI a duller.
Long story short, each "game mechanic" is just a cog in a complex machine (that has more than just cogs), and the cog itself isn't worth much; instead all parts and cogs of the machine must fit well and suport each other to create a machine, and in the end it's the machine that counts, not the mechanic.
Elvin said:
Quote:
While I'm not in favor of an h3 'remake' I don't think nwc's decision to change or ubi's ineptitude prove anything. And besides, most will agree that h4 was a worse game than the previous ones, despite some pretty good ideas. Which again doesn't prove anything.
For me, the best reason why ubi should not even try to build from H3 is that they don't get it anyway. A badly copied idea would likely piss me off more than a bad new idea.
I think that the combination of NWC going a different route and basically re-inventing the whole game IN COMBINATION with Ubisoft's failure to create something satisfactory based on H3 proves a lot, as much as CAN be proven, anyway (I mean, you cannot prove that a great H3-based game is impossible). I also don't think that H4 is worse. Keep in mind that the game never got the "final expansion" to round it. Think about how much flak Ubi got for H3 3D VANILLA game (which leaves a lot to desire), not to mention H5 without Tribes and so on. H4 vanilla is a much better game than H3 or H5 vanilla and all the potential of that game has been wasted, Ubisoft trying in vain to create an H3 succession and fight against windmills.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 10:57 AM |
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Edited by monere at 11:00, 18 Jun 2019.
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@JollyJoker
Quote:
For example - the waiting command. Makes battles, well, somewhat more complex and refined (and I don't know anyone who'd want to remove it), but is at the same time a nerf for the AI, making battles against the AI a duller
but on the other side it increases the complexity of multiplayer games, which is a plus.
Quote:
instead all parts and cogs of the machine must fit well and suport each other to create a machine
I have no idea what you mean by "cogs" but I think I've gotten your point anyway, and to respond to your point I will say that I agree. I agree that all parts of a game must bind together in order to create a good game, but that's hard to do because each player likes different things so it's hard to please everyone. And yet, H3 has achieved the closest thing to perfection of all the HoMM games in the franchise
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 03:17 PM |
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I'll give you an example to make things clear.
In the beginning of HoMM7 design, Limbic informed us that H7 would not feature random skill picks, but instead free choice. After some moaning from us, they explained their decision with the following gist:
H3's random skill pick system is a crappy mechanic unworthy of a strategy game, because it's based on hiding a couple of good skills within bad skills, making hero development a question of luck and not strategy. Instead, players should freely choose between equally balanced skills to find good combos...
Looking at the isolated secondary skill game mechanic of Heroes 3, the analysis is more or less correct. Secondary skills in Homm 3 are a crappy mechanic.
Looking at the bigger picture, however, it misses a couple of points and important things, though.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 18, 2019 03:40 PM |
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I also seem to remember something about h5 skill system being complex and confusing so it required some streamlining to fix it.
Also that heroes needed a turn reminder in combat or else the players would forget to use their hero every turn.
The latter is one of my very favorites 
____________
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 04:06 PM |
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While I agree that some things were really hilariously silly, that's not the point here. Here the point is, that HoMM 3 secondary skill mechanic, taken just by itself and without any context, is indeed and in fact a crappy mechanic.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 04:34 PM |
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Quote:
Instead, players should freely choose between equally balanced skills to find good combos
I actually agree with this. I've never heard them saying this, but that's because I have stopped caring about HoMM starting with H6, but that would have been a good idea had it been implemented in a way that doesn't make picking skills boring
Anyway, h3 is too good overall to complain about a minor detail like secondary skills
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 18, 2019 04:37 PM |
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I agree that HoMM3 secondary skill system is flawed. I personally enjoyed the small added challenge it gave. Sure sometimes you will eventually have to take a "bad" skill, but I like that. It forces me to take a step back and reevaluate the hero I am using and perhaps change tactics/strategy with that specific hero. You don't always get what you want after all.
Maybe I just learned to evolve with the secondary skill system and it does not bother me as much as it bothers you guys.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 05:32 PM |
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Guys, my last posts are supposed to illustrate the point that H3 is a great game, but not because of its game mechanics, and I gave an example for a CRAPPY one - that is, when you just look at that specific game mechanic.
What basically everyone (Limbic among them) didn't realize is the fact that H3's great-game-feeling isn't based on singularly great game mechanics. So what doesn't work is this:
"Ok, H3 is a great game, but secondary skill mechanic could be better - is actually so bad that it isn't really understandable why the game is still considered great. Surely, if we implement a better secondary skill system the game will be just that much better."
But no, it doesn't work that way. (Because, in this case, if you implement a different system, for example, you suddenly look at the next crappy game mechanic, the copious amount of totally unnecessary spells and the semi-randomness of acquiring them, and suddenly the game falls apart, since you have an isolated crappy game mechanic now which you have to change as well.) And when you did all that, you may stumble over the next crappy mechanic, realizing that magic heroes are getting always crappier, because no matter what you do, might heroes can pick magic as well and have an easier time at that, since the way is paved for them, and suddenly the whole game stops making sense.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 05:33 PM |
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Oddball13579 said:
I agree that HoMM3 secondary skill system is flawed. I personally enjoyed the small added challenge it gave. Sure sometimes you will eventually have to take a "bad" skill, but I like that. It forces me to take a step back and reevaluate the hero I am using and perhaps change tactics/strategy with that specific hero. You don't always get what you want after all.
Maybe I just learned to evolve with the secondary skill system and it does not bother me as much as it bothers you guys.
But it always better to choose between equally good percs, than surrender to fortune, which can give you "First aid" or smth like this. Actualy, the same system pissed me off in HoMM5. I tried to get "Retribution" for Academy many times, but without mods it's nearly impossible. HoMM7 did the right thing, buuut... there are too many "BUT"s outside of this system.
monere said:
Anyway, h3 is too good overall to complain about a minor detail like secondary skills
Mass berserk or Dimensional door instead of First aids or Warfare - not a "minor detail". Especialy if we are talking about evolution of percs.
We should not left "untouchable games" to understand, what we could call "good game" in future.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2019 06:09 PM |
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Caliostro said:
But it always better to choose between equally good percs, than surrender to fortune, which can give you "First aid" or smth like this.
No, it's actually not always better, because if all perks are equally good, there is the danger that your choice actually doesn't matter. Pick this or that, same difference. So if your goal is indeed to have equally good perks, you must introduce something that gives your picks meaning, AND in a non-trivial way at that (which is the same thing as to say, there must not be mandatory pick sequences, because if there are, the game will be "solved" after a time, everyone knowing what they will pick in a specific situation).
You might even go so far and say that it's not about the picking of the perks as such - after all, everyone can pick the right perks -, but instead of identifying the picks you want/need to win and then doing everything to give yourself the best chances to actually get what you need.
That's actually one thing that makes H3 so good (and incidentally, that is something H5 tried to conserve).
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This thread is pages long: 
