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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 18, 2019 09:47 PM |
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Quote:
And besides, most will agree that h4 was a worse game than the previous ones, despite some pretty good ideas.
I think most people will agree that Heroes IV is an unfinished game and everything else is a consequence of that.
As for III - it's just the final entry of the series which is greater than the sum of its components and, despite the individual flaws, not a single one of them on its own is so bad that it makes you hate the entire product.
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Zaio-Baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2019 01:19 AM |
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Elvin said:
Quote:
And now, I repeat my question, what exactly is better in HoMM3? (again, if we are not talking about visual aspect)
Elvin said:
- Better game pace.
Game pace is faster, but not necessarily better. Large multiplayer maps are all the same - Open creature banks, get huge army, take multiple utopias week 2-3, get DD/Fly/Town portal, Use View air ( its like maphack) to see where your opponents towns and heroes are and execute him. Multiplayer maps are all about rushing to the middle, getting the good things and then attacking your opponent without giving him time to catch up. So games typically end week 2-3-4 no matter the map size.
Dim door, fly and town portal speed up the game, but are broken. Also view air is broken too. Its possible to make "miracle" turns - use view air to see where are your opponents heroes, use town portal multiple times to get all army from all castles, then town portal to a town that is close to your opponents main hero, use DD/fly to come to him, equip shackles of war and win. All that in 1 turn 
Elvin said:
- Linear faction balance, factions not becoming overpowered or underpowered after x weeks.
Linear balance, but in multiplayer people always go for the same skills. Every single game, no matter what is the map, what town they are playing and what town their opponent is playing. Earth magic - Logistics - Offense- Air magic - Armorer - Tactics - Diplomacy - Wisdom/Pathfinding.
Elvin said:
- No sluggish, exploit-based creeping. Good players are known for having 45 min turns to kill ridiculous amounts of neutrals with barely any army.
In H5 those turns happen on fan made maps only. On ubi maps/rmg turns are about 5-8 mins. Also exploit based creeping happens in hota too - Lvl 1 Ivor with 1 Grand elf and no spells killing full experimental shop ( 160 iron golems ) week 1 to get 4 giants for free  . Easily over 60 min
Elvin said:
- No skills that can make your earlygame ridiculously easy like war machines. No 2% rare skills that can turn your faction completely overpowered like enlightenment for orcs/haven or dark for sylvan.
War machines are insane, but only if picked early. If you get them offered after lvl 10 they are far from great. Heroes that start with war machines, however, are extremely overpowered on most multiplayer maps. People like to play maps with very hard creeping/heroic difficulty where heroes that start with war machines have a huge edge.
Also about dark for sylvan i disagree, its great combo with imbue arrow + rain of frenzy, but sylvan has 2% chance to get dark magic offered and no high lvl dark spells in magic guild. So it has to be rich map to make this work. And on rich maps dwarven boots(immunity to slow) and dwarven shield(immunity to frenzy) are not hard to find. Also forgotten hero armor and resistance perk are nice. So on maps where dark elf can happen counters to dark elf are available.
Elvin said:
- Far more varied spell pool and spellcasting combinations because H3 supports multiple schools whereas in H5 even 2 can be dead weight for most factions.
Earth and air every multi game. Other magic skills are used only if forced to pick. Get earth + mass slow, loot the creture banks, break to middle, loot utopias and use view air + dd/fly/tp to get close to your opponent and finish him. The way multi works 1st to middle wins, so both players are speed running the game to get to the middle. But there are towns in the middle. So if you capture those towns and if you also have town portal + dd/Fly you have a huge advantage. If your opponent comes 1 turn away from your town you can use town portal multiple times to get all army from all towns, then town portal to the town close to your enemy's main hero, then DD + fly + shackles of war and GG free points
That said i like H3 a lot, but multiplayer can be improved imo.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2019 03:05 AM |
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Quote:
The way multi works 1st to middle wins, so both players are speed running the game to get to the middle. But there are towns in the middle
this is not a game thing, but a map thing. And since - despite of the apparent "issue" - people continue playing this "faulty" map it means that they like it like this.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 19, 2019 08:41 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 08:41, 19 Jun 2019.
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@Zaio-Baio
By faster gameplay I don't mean reaching the other side of the map with 4 dimension doors per day H3 adventure map spells are so gloriously broken that it's hilarious, good thing that h5 toned them down. I'm sorry to say that I never did play online so I'm a weaker H3 player compared to H5 - I didn't even know utopias could be safely captured week 2. Are creature banks involved? Because you can't even use a ballista there.
More or less always same skills is kind of a heroes curse, even H5 was affected. But it's more noticeable in H3 that doesn't have ability trees and skills are the same. Earth and air everygame is a given but wisdom still gives you access to all spells so you are not limited in that regard.
Zaio-Baio said:
Also exploit based creeping happens in hota too - Lvl 1 Ivor with 1 Grand elf and no spells killing full experimental shop ( 160 iron golems ) week 1 to get 4 giants for free . Easily over 60 min
I hate hota exploit mindset, you have to do a lot of annoying crap on their campaigns. I have finished the first two campaigns on impossible and it is as enjoyable as pulling teeth. To me it feels like this kind of mindset violates the spirit of heroes.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 19, 2019 10:16 AM |
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In my opinion, these things are all a question of map and scenario configuration. If you play a rich map with some amount of starting assets, it becomes a question of maximizing and optimizing. The question isn't anymore, should I do this OR that, the question is, in which order will I do as many things as possible.
If you play without starting assets and on poor map configurations, maximizing and optimizing comes into play a lot later. Instead you'll have to make decisions, and doing one thing will certainly leave you not being able to do another.
Maximizing and optimizing means of course, pushing the limits of the game to the max and back again, that's in the nature of things.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 19, 2019 10:38 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 10:44, 19 Jun 2019.
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Unfortunately map design can make or break any homm game. In particular, wealth of gold/resources/creature banks/utopias and unbanned gamebreaking spells. Would have been nice to put emphasis on random map generation that avoids such things and has a healthy dose of mixed neutrals.
I mean balancing should prevent this in the first place but being able to correct through random map properties would be good to have too.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted June 20, 2019 12:39 PM |
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The future for Might and Magic Heroes is very simple
It is all about re-outsourcing the development of the next title of this wonderful series to where you would be tempted to ask?
The answer is also as simple as the question: Back Home in North America. Namely San-Francisco, California, U.S.A or, as an institution based ongoing project at the Ubisoft's University, here, in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
Letting students to open up the core programming of the game and, get to learn at literally change the way this game is made line by programming line.
Also, allowing Heroes 7 to be literally fixed up on the get go and, allowing the 2 other planned expansions for it to become a real reality.
Do not forget that the future of information technology has created 5 new classes of computers. These new classes being: Pico sized computer(Smart-phone), Nano sized computer(Tablet), Micro sized computer(Laptop), Mini sized computer(Desktop Easy to Upgrade type of a rectangular shaped case a.k.a. the PC) and, then, last but not least, the full size computer that is mostly used today as a home server unit that, in return, is the size of small appliance[very large rectangular shaped case that uses the extra type of ATX mainboards and, is used mainly as a today's version of a true Central Processing/Storing of Data Unit(UPSDU) that gets to relay audio-video-data to all terminals in the local vicinity of the dwelling(house or apartment)]
So, by knowing all this array of information technology based units, I expect games that can fully use the awesome power of graphical and data processing of the Mini(desktop) Computers of the right-now time of the soon to be the 3rd decade of the 21st century(2020+).
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 20, 2019 01:13 PM |
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https://twitter.com/marzhin/status/1139843427737190400
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2019 04:49 PM |
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Good thread. Looks like the franchise was dismembered after Trial by Fire. I don't know why we're wasting time in this thread anymore.
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Zaio-Baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 22, 2019 09:32 AM |
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Elvin said:
@Zaio-Baio
I'm sorry to say that I never did play online so I'm a weaker H3 player compared to H5 - I didn't even know utopias could be safely captured week 2. Are creature banks involved? Because you can't even use a ballista there.
Its easier with creature banks, but if the map is ridiculous enough its also possible without
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 23, 2019 01:11 PM |
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bitmaid said:
Good thread. Looks like the franchise was dismembered after Trial by Fire. I don't know why we're wasting time in this thread anymore.
Don't forget Elemental Guardians
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 23, 2019 08:12 PM |
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blob2 said:
Don't forget Elemental Guardians
Never again utter that wretched name here.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2019 08:12 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 08:14, 24 Jun 2019.
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Yeah, um, Elemental Guardians. Now what bruh? Wanna go? HUH?!
Because you sound awfully condescendent. Tongue in cheek maybe? Anyway, I agree with JJ the most and with you the least from what I've read in the last couple of pages. Heroes 3 was good, yes, it's not good enough today for the wider market. Heroes 5 was, in my opinion, better in gameplay, but not as enchanting with its atmosphere and looks. Still not the future either. The future lies in wait beyond what has been, that's the crucial factor. If it doesn't bring the excitement of novelty and it's just the same old same old with a small twist, for me it has failed.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 25, 2019 08:56 AM |
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You're not the right person to cast the first stone mate I may be apathetic towards ubi's m&m milking attempts like champions or that moba but I wouldn't blame anyone for getting rubbed off the wrong way.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 26, 2019 09:11 PM |
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Stevie said:
Yeah, um, Elemental Guardians. Now what bruh? Wanna go? HUH?!
Because you sound awfully condescendent. Tongue in cheek maybe?
Clearly someone can't take a joke. You might want to get that stick up your butt checked out 
It is endlessly amusing how offended and upset people get sometimes.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 08:28 PM |
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Su_Lang_Manchu said:
Beholders are one of the most iconic monsters and have been featured more in the MM world than Troglodytes.
kinda out of topic a bit but I have been wondering about this for a long time. Beholders is supposed to be an IP belong to WotC/D&D so why did NWC managed to get it into their game?
Series like Baldur's gate and nverwinter night have it too, but they were license from WotC.
I looked this up and found nothing about it. All other games kinda avoid this creature or have to give it different names (evil eyes or eyeball monster or whatever)
Caliostro said:
To be honest, I provoked people to answer, why they like HoMM3 so much. And I'm happy, that i heard something constructive, because I also had things to answer. I still have thoughts to write, but the main arguments were already written.
i think its easier to say how you feel about this game, what you like and what you don't like but it's kinda hard to pinpoint the particular mechanics, or system that make it works. I think Hmm as a franchise from 1 to 3 was a mess that just some how .. worked. Its core game has always been flawed, and every iteration has its own undeveloped aspects. Many people think H3 is perfect, but I think h3 and h5 are just the least frustrating to play, or "still feel good despite all the flaws".
I have been seeing people opinions about the game but somehow, for one mechanics to be hated by some people, there will always be some others who like it.
Elvin said:
Flanking has never been implemented well but it would work better with hexes anyway. Hexes work better with anything.
heroes online is the proof that flanking works much better with hexes. However, that game doesn't have 1x2 hex creature. All creatures has the same hex size.
I can't think of any way to make 1x2 hex creature and flanking work together.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 28, 2019 08:38 PM |
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lantranar said:
Su_Lang_Manchu said:
Beholders are one of the most iconic monsters and have been featured more in the MM world than Troglodytes.
kinda out of topic a bit but I have been wondering about this for a long time. Beholders is supposed to be an IP belong to WotC/D&D so why did NWC managed to get it into their game?
Series like Baldur's gate has it too, but it has licensed from WotC.
I looked this up and found nothing about it. All other games kinda avoid this creature or have to give it different names (evil eyes or eyeball monster or whatever)
I believe they get away with it based on a technicality. As in D&D a Beholder is a floating creature with a large eye, a mouth, and then numerous tentacles that end in eyes. The Beholder in HoMM is technically a brain with an eye that walks on stalks/tentacles.
Another way to look at is is that NWC might have made the Beholder before WotC/D&D acquired it as an IP.
I'm just guessing of course.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 09:09 PM |
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In a game like HoMM, flanking as a general mechanism makes zero sense, and that includes HO. It is, however, a good creature ability. It might also be a Hero ability to give this to creatures led...
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 28, 2019 10:12 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
In a game like HoMM, flanking as a general mechanism makes zero sense, and that includes HO. It is, however, a good creature ability. It might also be a Hero ability to give this to creatures led...
lore-wise or tactic-wise?
historically, "anvil and hammer" had been a staple tactic since ancient era, so I don't see how it shouldnt be applied in war game, for immersive purpose, you know.
Tho, I guess it may only apply to human organized army with proper battle formations. For beasts, I just can't imagine them being weak from flanking maneuvers. The same is for unorganized troops like bandit, nomads or pirates, or zombies (Games of Throne ptsd)
In Heroes online, H7 and a few other web games i played, it adds extra attention to troop positioning.
hmn, to have it as a separate passive ability or spell/battlecry might be a good idea.
monere said:
Quote:
Try to say that Starcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 are bad because they have "crappy overall 3D", unlike their predecessors.
they are not TBS games, though...
this is totally unrelated. Starcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 look good because their graphics were designed to have good clarity and for top-down view. Game camera is fixed so this approach rarely shows any problem.
Their characters' designs are often skewed towards the top/head, so they usually look quite odd on other views.
Now turning to Warcraft 3 reforged, where they improved graphic quality and detail, they make characters' proportions more like WOW, pros and fans hate it because they kinda blend together and huge battles look more confusing. There is less clarity and less visual cues to recognize troops immediately.
This is a problem to H5-7 as well. They design the models so that they look good on closeups and various camera angles, which in turn makes them look mediocre for the top-down view, which what we need the most.
Most creatures look generic when you zoom out far enough, and very often their animations are too long.
This is because they went for visual gimmicks instead of user's experience, something like a quota they must do to please their investors.
Oddball13579 said:
I believe they get away with it based on a technicality. As in D&D a Beholder is a floating creature with a large eye, a mouth, and then numerous tentacles that end in eyes. The Beholder in HoMM is technically a brain with an eye that walks on stalks/tentacles.
Another way to look at is is that NWC might have made the Beholder before WotC/D&D acquired it as an IP.
I'm just guessing of course.
I think the name 'beholder' itself was patented, so you can't dodge it simply by giving it a different appearance. That time lag reason makes sense tho.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 29, 2019 08:54 AM |
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lantranar said:
hmn, to have it as a separate passive ability or spell/battlecry might be a good idea.
Right. General tactical finesses are wasted chances to give creatures interesting individual passive abilities and heroes interesting spells or perks or battle cries.
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This thread is pages long: 
