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bloodsucker
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posted June 10, 2020 07:58 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
They're police officers, not T-Rex's.
This. If they were private security or some politician bodyguards, I could at least see your (Sal's) point. But they are police officers, sworn to protect the citizens, paid with their taxes.
If I had an employee and he decided to go rogue I would fire him. So, what is it that you find wrong in people wanting to defund the police and start everything from scratch? They clearly don't have their priorities straight, despise being obvious: protect and serve the citizens.
You may say I need a bath of reality but this is a matter of principles not a reality check. Cops don't have the right to strike private citizens unless they are infringing the law in a violent manner.
If you ask me if I would ever be in Gugino's shoes, no I wouldn't. But that doesn't mean the police was on the right or that the media should shut the f... up about it.
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Blizzardboy
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posted June 10, 2020 08:01 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Guys. Prosecute cops when they do bad actions. But for god's sake, stop this victim and spineless mentality that you can do whatever you want and never be accountable for stupid actions. Keep out from police charging or assume consequences.
Of course, this applies to only your agenda, when some white men protest for preserving historical monuments or against hordes of migrants spiting on their culture, they deserve every beating and preventive arrest, we know that.
"That student was being sassy. They had it coming when the teacher punched them in the mouth.
That patient was being annoying. They didn't deserve competent medical care.
That driver cut me off. I'm going to smash his windshield.
That person took the last roll of toilet paper. I'm going to start a brawl in the store."
No, no, no, and no. He is a police officer. What he did was completely unacceptable.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 10, 2020 08:21 PM |
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 10, 2020 10:27 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
That person took the last roll of toilet paper. I'm going to start a brawl in the store."
I'll advice against this course of action. If you desperately need toilet paper odds are you are already in the middle of doing - or have just finished doing - your business, in a store for some reason, and starting a fight with your pants down will only pull your poop around.
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Blizzardboy
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posted June 10, 2020 10:39 PM |
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You could always discretely try the lawncare & gardening section.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 10, 2020 11:05 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
If I had an employee and he decided to go rogue I would fire him
Most of the policeman engaged in those incidents were fired I don't see your point.
Nice idea with ploughing the Police, but who will take their place, especially now when most young people will steer clear from the Force.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 11, 2020 12:21 AM |
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blob2 said:
Most of the policeman engaged in those incidents were fired I don't see your point.
No they weren't. Two were fired, the rest quit in protest (cause of the firing).
That post was directed to Sal, who was claiming the media should stop talking about this situation, cause Gugino was asking for it. I don't pretend to have the best answer to how can America solve his problem with the police. I don't live there and for as much as I have watched the news in the last few days, I'm far from having an overall perspective of the situation. Way too many variables...
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Blizzardboy
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posted June 11, 2020 02:47 AM |
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The fact that the rest quit shows how there is a ganglike culture within the department. Loyalty before anything else, even if it involves a colleague pushing an elderly person to the ground and sending them to the hospital.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2020 02:53 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
No, no, no, and no. He is a police officer. What he did was completely unacceptable.
You radicalize my thoughts. If someone says accountability is shared, this is not same as saying the victim deserves what happened to him.
There are millions of interactions between police and public in USA, each year. Literally millions. From those, we have seen a few going wrong, but pushed into the lights again and again by the media, which creates a dangerous effect of reverberation. Therefore we start hear some of the most idiotic suggestions, as defund the police or use more women in the first line, which, if you consider there are millions of requested interactions, would create way more chaos and havoc.
bloodsucker said:
That post was directed to Sal, who was claiming the media should stop talking about this situation,
No, I never said that, of course medias should show the abuse so there is no doubt on whom to blame.
I say media should understand that over representing only one vision of the reality ends by creating a new reality. If you insist on a few things which went wrong, but choose to ignore and never mention the millions of police interactions which helped and saved so many lives, you create the actual state of anarchy, people literally chanting their hate on police. Because if you look at statistics, Floyd's death, Gucino and the few others incidents which were certainly hard to watch, represent basically 0% compared to the millions which were positive.
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Blizzardboy
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posted June 11, 2020 03:04 AM |
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The accountability is not shared, at least not anywhere close to equally.
They are the police. It is their job to respond to protesters in a professional manner or they shouldn't be on the street responding to protesters. Again, I could analogize it reasonably well to a patient and a doctor or a student and a teacher. The professional in the room sets the standard, and the standard with the Buffalo police was pitiful.
As far as defunding/disbanding police: this has already happened before and it has worked successfully.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Salamandre
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posted June 11, 2020 04:18 AM |
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I don't know the specificity of a police charge but you can see in the video that some want to stop and help but others don't let them do that. From my understanding, once a charge is ordered no one can remain behind, isolate therefore become an easy target for rioters.
Your standards for police are too high and unbearable. They have orders to respect, then people do stupid actions, put themselves into dangers because they are activists and emotionally reckless, then sh!t happens. Sure, use cops bad decisions and lack of self control to improve things, that's what experience is for.
But a riot is a riot. 15 people died, full cities were burned to the bone by "peaceful protesters" ; cops have to deal with extreme situations where bad things will happen on both sides. Show them on BOTH sides, that is what I say.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 08:47 AM |
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That is all beside the point. I repeat: you have demonstrations against police brutality. It's not a good idea to muster and array the subjects of the protests, threateningly, armed and ready to pounce.
That's a decision escalating the situation, and escalating it in a rather calculated way.
This will play in the hands of agent provocateurs on both sides only who welcome escalation.
As it is, it just underlines what the protests are all about and rightfully so. The cops are doing themselves no favor when they hit and harrass "protected" groups - basically this is the same behavior pattern as that of the cops torturing floyd: mindless brutality in the face of camera presence. They are eitherly extremely stupid or extremely sure of their immunity, and both isn't good.
However, it's also clear that this is only a symptom and not the disease. The whole system is rotten to the core.
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Salamandre
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posted June 11, 2020 09:19 AM |
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How is rotten? On 350 million interactions/year, you have less than, let's say 50 when counting all races unarmed killing, going wrong.
That is 0%.
Some cops are not fit for this job. Fire them.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 10:46 AM |
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For the incident in question and some other things I find this pretty spot-on.
For the rotten system - I don't actually mean "the police". The problem, as was repeatedly said, is that too many things have been defunded in the past, while the budget of the police have been increased - the police is responsible for a ton of things that they aren't educated to actually deal with. This budget is a direct reflection of the federal budget with its blown-up military budget, with the police now ending up with military-grade equipment.
As I've heard someone saying, they need to go from a policy of punishment to one of care. You can't solve everything with a badge and a gun (and with riot shields and armored cars).
That's what de-funding the police means, and it's the right thing to do for a European anyway, because with us it's different.
I mean, 9-1-1 IS prepared to react differently, depending on the situation; if a fire is reported, they don't send the police, they send the fire department. If there was an accident, they send an EMT team. Differentiation makes a lot of sense.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 12:04 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 12:16, 11 Jun 2020.
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Salamandre said:
I say media should understand that over representing only one vision of the reality ends by creating a new reality. If you insist on a few things which went wrong, but choose to ignore and never mention the millions of police interactions which helped and saved so many lives, you create the actual state of anarchy, people literally chanting their hate on police. Because if you look at statistics, Floyd's death, Gucino and the few others incidents which were certainly hard to watch, represent basically 0% compared to the millions which were positive.
I'm with Sal on this. Media should show the truth, but they usually overinterpret and escalate. They do not understand what power they have in affecting people's opinions (or they do, and do it on purpose). I would even go as far as to say they are in part responsible for the anarchy because they put their emphasis on "police vs civilians" building towards the anger.
And we cannot compare USA police force to European one. Not only America has a military cult, it also has a "unions" cult. Most public services have strong identity and representation. Plus in Europe, while we do have terrorist attacks, our countries were never put on such a high alert as in USA. They were strongly weaponized (even if this was part of a plan to put more control on the society) and probably trained in responding more aggresivly to threats. USA Police current state is an effect of years of building a society around outside threats.
Take a look on mostly de-weaponized British police. When protesters face against them it looks like a regular street brawl with them having no means to counter the crowd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQpm5a4y5XE
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 12:39 PM |
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blob2 said:
I'm with Sal on this. Media should show the truth, but they usually overinterpret and escalate. They do not understand what power they have in affecting people's opinions (or they do, and do it on purpose). I would even go as far as to say they are in part responsible for the anarchy because they put their emphasis on "police vs civilians" buidling towards the anger.
With all due respect, but that is nonsense. We don't even have "media" anymore in the old sense - what we have, is Twitter, Facebook and Youtube, among others, in addition, which means, "media" are now you and me - and presidents as well. Everyone can post their videos and their truths now and does it. Secondly, the old media "presence" has been twofold right from the start; there has always been a part "present facts" (and leave others out, because of reasons of time not everything can be reported) and another part "commentary" (a subjective thing, that just has to be marked accordingly)- facts and events has ALWAYS been commented. A monopoly on fact/news reporting would be bad for the truth, so there is competition within the media, which in turn means, the traditional media are competing for viewers/readers/listeners which in turn means that everyone is keen on presenting the most sensational pictures, whatever that means, but there is one thing to keep in mind: it's NOT the task of the media to censure what is for their audience to see and what is not.You can argue, if you report about a mass accident, how much of the carnage has to be shown and when the lust for sensation starts, but we are not talking accidents here. Did anyone protest when you could see the planes crashing into the Twin Towers again and again and again? No.
Today, it doesn't matter anyway - someone will post some camera video, no matter what.
Quote:
And we cannot compare USA police force to European one. Not only America has a military cult, it also has a "unions" cult. Most public services have strong identity and representation. Plus in Europe, while we do have terrorist attacks, our countries were never put on such a high alert as in USA. They were strongly weaponized (even if this was part of a plan to put more control on the society) and probably trained in responding more aggresivly to threats. USA Police current state is an effect of years of building a society around outside threats.
Take a look on mostly de-weaponized British police. When protesters face against them it looks like a regular street brawl with them having no means to counter the crowd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQpm5a4y5XE
You are completely mixing up things here. First of all, Unions existed in Europe earlier than in the US - and for different reasons. In Europe, Unions were instruments of the class struggle. In the US they were instruments to protect the interests of the unionists against the non-unionists (and were actually used as an intrument of racism) - in practise that meant, unions pressured the employers to hire only union workers (and unions didn't take blacks and Chinese). Whether there is a military cult in the US is irrelevant, because the police ISN'T the military, and it's actually not responsible for dealing with terrorist stuff - that's Homeland Security.
The only relevant argument in this regard is that guns are freely available to everyone - even a simple street thug. However, that still is no reason for mindless police brutality. If someone IS secured, there is no threat anymore.
Lastly - if you have a demonstration and you's be afraid of terrorists - wouldn't you expect them to hit the mass of the protesters in order to do a maximum of damage?
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 01:42 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:48, 11 Jun 2020.
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JollyJoker said:
We don't even have "media" anymore in the old sense - what we have, is Twitter, Facebook and Youtube, among others, in addition, which means, "media" are now you and me - and presidents as well. Everyone can post their videos and their truths now and does it.
That's were you are wrong. With how bombarded the population is with information in current times people are even more confused and instinctively looking for someone to formulate their opinions for them. Simply put: they like listening to people that they identify their opinions with and build their rethoric further on what they see in TV. There is non-stop coverage of USA riots, people probably won't even turn off their TV's lately.
Remember we are not talking about people like you and me. I don't know how it looks in Germany, but in Poland the national TV is fully controlled by the government. It's not even funny how much of one-sided propaganda they spout each day. They are the literal tool of the government, backed by huge funding, their reporters being openly hostile towards opposition (becasue government offcials put those no-names where they are today, heck one of the previous ministers of the ruling party is now the de facto president of that TV station today), and used in presidential campaign to shed positive light ONLY on the ruling party, like you see in North Korea. Literally. I unfortunately cannot show you because most materials on Youtube for instance don't have English transcription. I think USA has quite a similar problem with two news stations (CNN and FOX) openly at war with each other and the populace being further split in half by them.
Why do you think there is such a polarization of opinions in USA? Or even on this forum? You say TV media are irrelevant? Then why these past days on these very forums there is such a heated discussion about media coverage of USA riots? Enlightend me. Your problem might be that you belive too much in the objectivity of the general populace.
News station still do matter in forming the opinions of a big chunk of populace, I'm really surprised you can't see that...
JollyJoker said:
it's NOT the task of the media to censure what is for their audience to see and what is not.You can argue, if you report about a mass accident, how much of the carnage has to be shown and when the lust for sensation starts, but we are not talking accidents here. Did anyone protest when you could see the planes crashing into the Twin Towers again and again and again? No.
Today, it doesn't matter anyway - someone will post some camera video, no matter what.
Now your saying irrelevant things. It's not what they show, it's what they "decide" to show or not to show and how they comment on it. They cut and montage materials or speeches to only show a part of the whole. That is the power of media, because most people won't bother to see the full material.
JollyJoker said:
You are completely mixing up things here. First of all, Unions existed in Europe earlier than in the US - and for different reasons. In Europe, Unions were instruments of the class struggle. In the US they were instruments to protect the interests of the unionists against the non-unionists (and were actually used as an intrument of racism) - in practise that meant, unions pressured the employers to hire only union workers (and unions didn't take blacks and Chinese).
I'm talking about the police union specifically. We don't have strong police unions in Europe like in USA. I'm not talking about cooperation unions like Europol. I'm talking about actual Police unions that represent their subordinates that are now under fire in USA in odds with even their local/municipal governments.
JollyJoker said:
Whether there is a military cult in the US is irrelevant, because the police ISN'T the military, and it's actually not responsible for dealing with terrorist stuff - that's Homeland Security.
You didn't understand what I mean. By military cult I understand the general populace. Police isn't military, but it's full of people with para-military interests, weapon junkies of people with strong ego's. Sometimes even war veterans.
JollyJoker said:
Lastly - if you have a demonstration and you's be afraid of terrorists - wouldn't you expect them to hit the mass of the protesters in order to do a maximum of damage?
Bah, I'm talking about their gear, trainings. DEA or SWAT, even more heavily armed groups are also part of the police (and SWAT teams are called upon the protesters). I haven't seen gear like US police has in any other country aside of China maybe. Back it up with the in-country military cult/para-military like means and we have incidents like brutal police pacifications of protesters.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 02:17 PM |
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I'm actually not sure what your point is with a view on the media.
There is no objective truth, and not only can no one claim to have it, there is a ton of media outlets and a ton of opinions. Obviously we agree that a media monopoly is bad, but the logical consequence is (and has ever been), different comments and interpretations of the same things. There has always been left and right media, "state media" (remember, in Germany everyone pays for independent TV channels in addition to those privately and ad-financed).
And the facts are the facts. My last link here is an opinion piece that includes the video where the police is hurting that 75 year-old, but the opinion piece is actually on Trump's tweet about it and the reaction of his mouthpiece.
Now, I'm not "excusing" the media - I just say that the media have to show the facts and also to comment on them. The problem is that some news are fake and some comments are based on fake news or dishonest.
Police brutality is a fact.
With a view on Unions - we do have strong unions in Europe, they just don't work like the mafia. For example, in Germany, we have even three police Unions click and they go 100 years back. Sure, the unions in the US are strong, but they do what is their job - protecting their members within their legal rights.
What you about the military-grade equipment, I said myself - that is part of what defunding and de-militarizing is all about. Police don't need any tanks. But that has nothing to do with "military cult", that's an economic thing.
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blob2
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Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 02:52 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:55, 11 Jun 2020.
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JollyJoker said:
I'm actually not sure what your point is with a view on the media.
There is no objective truth, and not only can no one claim to have it, there is a ton of media outlets and a ton of opinions.
My point is that media is going out of line and is adding to the chaos. Plus recently I'm observing an influx of polarized opinions. You're either "with us" or "with them". There is no middle-ground. You're either racist or conformist. You're either left or right etc.
JollyJoker said:
And the facts are the facts. My last link here is an opinion piece that includes the video where the police is hurting that 75 year-old, but the opinion piece is actually on Trump's tweet about it and the reaction of his mouthpiece.
There's no denying that, the same as what has happened to Floyd (even if it turns out Floyds background is pretty sketchy, and Chauvin actions seem to have been influenced by their previous acquaintance). But there are parts of coverage I am not approving off with the way they are presented or handled.
JollyJoker said:
Police brutality is a fact.
It is.
JollyJoker said:
What you about the military-grade equipment, I said myself - that is part of what defunding and de-militarizing is all about. Police don't need any tanks. But that has nothing to do with "military cult", that's an economic thing.
I don't belive general populace was that much reluctant when police was de-equipped after 9/11 and other incidents. People seem to have realized only now what it has lead to.
On the other hand, do you belive most European countries police would handle the scale of riots America is having right now without the use of military?
And America using "force" to handle their problems is nothing new.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 03:37 PM |
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blob2 said:
JollyJoker said:
I'm actually not sure what your point is with a view on the media.
There is no objective truth, and not only can no one claim to have it, there is a ton of media outlets and a ton of opinions.
My point is that media is going out of line and is adding to the chaos. Plus recently I'm observing an influx of polarized opinions. You're either "with us" or "with them". There is no middle-ground. You're either racist or conformist. You're either left or right etc.
That's because some media have (more of) an agenda (than others). Private media are owned by someone, and in some cases those someones have strong interests and use the owned media as an outlet for their own agendas and ideas (while others will be more lenient in that regard and/or the ownership is not in one specific hand). If something is instrumentalized for something else than what it actually should so, this will radicalize the environment.
JollyJoker said:
And the facts are the facts. My last link here is an opinion piece that includes the video where the police is hurting that 75 year-old, but the opinion piece is actually on Trump's tweet about it and the reaction of his mouthpiece.
Quote:
On the other hand, do you belive most European countries police would handle the scale of riots America is having right now without the use of military?
And America using "force" to handle their problems is nothing new.
Riots are a sign of a sizable percentage of the population being VERY unhappy with something - as opposed to DEMONSTRATING, which is a basic right. Riots signal that something is very wrong. So if something like that would happen in a European country there wouldn't be any difference - because there would also be something very wrong, and it wouldn't be very wrong if the powers that are would be inclined to actually do something decisive about it.
I mean, seriously, the protesters say, the police is using too often unjustified force and what we are seeing is exactly that.
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