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bloodsucker
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posted June 11, 2020 04:06 PM |
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blob2 said:
And we cannot compare USA police force to European one. Not only America has a military cult, it also has a "unions" cult. Most public services have strong identity and representation. Plus in Europe, while we do have terrorist attacks, our countries were never put on such a high alert as in USA. They were strongly weaponized (even if this was part of a plan to put more control on the society) and probably trained in responding more aggressively to threats. USA Police current state is an effect of years of building a society around outside threats.
Take a look on mostly de-weaponized British police. When protesters face against them it looks like a regular street brawl
First, the police unions are a problem. While they can certainly have a role in pressing for better salaries, better working conditions, etc... they need to have a limited range of interference and not be usable to suppress inside investigations on bad behavior and avoid the respective charges.
Second, being strongly weaponized and trained to respond more aggressively is what is causing the problem. If you gave shields and batons to the British police officers shown in your video they wouldn't charge against peaceful protestors (which those were not) in the same manner you saw in the Gugino video or in front of the White House, when Trump decided to came out for a prop photo-shoot.
They were trained differently.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 04:22 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 16:29, 11 Jun 2020.
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JollyJoker said:
That's because some media have (more of) an agenda (than others). Private media are owned by someone, and in some cases those someones have strong interests and use the owned media as an outlet for their own agendas and ideas (while others will be more lenient in that regard and/or the ownership is not in one specific hand). If something is instrumentalized for something else than what it actually should so, this will radicalize the environment.
So you agree with me about the media, to some extent at least?
JollyJoker said:
Riots are a sign of a sizable percentage of the population being VERY unhappy with something - as opposed to DEMONSTRATING, which is a basic right. Riots signal that something is very wrong. So if something like that would happen in a European country there wouldn't be any difference - because there would also be something very wrong, and it wouldn't be very wrong if the powers that are would be inclined to actually do something decisive about it.
I think we should wait a couple of months and see where Europe is going post-corona  Great Britain or France, which also contain a seizable minority population, are also rioting.
Without repeating the same stuff over and over again, there are multiple factors at work why America is what it is today. It had to blow at some point.
JollyJoker said:
I mean, seriously, the protesters say, the police is using too often unjustified force and what we are seeing is exactly that.
It's true, I don't deny that. But protesters also use force in some cases. And even if they aren't protesters, it doesn't help with stopping the "hate" spreading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjf0fSwyEGU. It's a sad situation really... all that while protesters aren't that easy to identify as a group (because there are various factions/groups of interests) like the police is. Police needs reforms, not only in USA, there's no running away form that. But putting them in limelight as the only bad side in all of this won't help.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 05:06 PM |
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blob2 said:
So you agree with me about the media, to some extent at least?
Well. You said: Quote:
I'm with Sal on this. Media should show the truth, but they usually overinterpret and escalate.
Sal said:
I say media should understand that over representing only one vision of the reality ends by creating a new reality. If you insist on a few things which went wrong, but choose to ignore and never mention the millions of police interactions which helped and saved so many lives, you create the actual state of anarchy, people literally chanting their hate on police. Because if you look at statistics, Floyd's death, Gucino and the few others incidents which were certainly hard to watch, represent basically 0% compared to the millions which were positive.
And I DISAGREE with that. If a plane is crashing and it happens due to human error or negligence, you don't expect a disclaimer: Viewers beware: millions of flights are completely flawless. If the second plane of the same airline crashes due to the same human error, you don't expect said disclaimer but an investigation.
If a doctor makes an error and a patient dies, it doesn't help to point to the hundreds of successful operations - it will still be investigated. If there are several of those deadly errors in any hospital it's a breaking news and the disclaimer is irrelevant.
Media should show facts, not fake facts. If they do that - there is no objectivity, because for objectivity you need ALL pertinent facts, and those are not known.
I'm not really sure whether this is related, but have you ever noticed that the whole legal system is based around allowing and disallowing the presentation of facts? Both sides in court will try their utmost to present exclusively supportive facts for their side and negative facts for the other and to avoid the other side doing the same? Objectivity isn't really a goal, because it's unreachable anyway.
So as long as there are no lies, fake news, baseless speculations, accusations and so on, I have no problem with the media.
I know at least one TV show based on this: Have you seen Damages? In each episode a small part of what happens last is shown, and in each episode you see a few seconds more. The picture will change accordingly and in the end things will be entirely different than you expected.
Quote:
I think we should wait a couple of months and see where Europe is going post-corona Great Britain or France, which also contain a seizable minority population, are also rioting.
There are riots in France and UK? Like in the US? When did that happen? Sure, there are warnings there MIGHT be (because of corona), but at this time?
Quote:
Without repeating the same stuff over and over again, there are multiple factors at work why America is what it is today. It had to blow at some point.
It has blown repeatedly and nothing happened.
Quote:
Police needs reforms, not only in USA, there's no running away form that. But putting them in limelight as the only bad side in all of this won't help.
They gut the (heavy) guns and they got the numbers, so they should actually be in the limelight as the bully.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2020 05:39 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
And I DISAGREE with that. If a plane is crashing and it happens due to human error or negligence, you don't expect a disclaimer: Viewers beware: millions of flights are completely flawless.
Is beyond my mind how you can expect someone to go through such weak comparison. If a plane is crashing, sure there will be no disclaimer that planes are safe, but if a worldwide protest movement starts to beat plane pilots, burn the planes then claim planes kill people, there will be a disclaimer within minutes on all medias, stating the truth: statistics - planes are the safest travel tool.
What us happening now is just one more cog to the daily oiled mechanism to put down Trump by all means, nothing less. That's why they will lose again, all is artificial and worthless squabble.
I feel so bad for the police, they have a few bad elements we know that, but this mob attitude to paint them all as thugs is despicable.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 06:19 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 18:28, 11 Jun 2020.
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JollyJoker said:
Well. You said: Quote:
I'm with Sal on this. Media should show the truth, but they usually overinterpret and escalate.
Sal said:
I say media should understand that over representing only one vision of the reality ends by creating a new reality. If you insist on a few things which went wrong, but choose to ignore and never mention the millions of police interactions which helped and saved so many lives, you create the actual state of anarchy, people literally chanting their hate on police.
Yes because it coincides with my view that media are agitating the crowds even more. Verbally and visually.
JollyJoker said:
Media should show facts, not fake facts. If they do that - there is no objectivity, because for objectivity you need ALL pertinent facts, and those are not known.
So as long as there are no lies, fake news, baseless speculations, accusations and so on, I have no problem with the media.
Yes but that is what they're doing in many cases - not only show the event itself, but refer to opinions that match their opinions, manipulate, show only one side of the coin etc, in too many cases even going as far as presenting their own personal, or their news stations, beliefs. Sometimes displaying obvious signs of political or different outlook aversion - something free-standing media should get away from as much as possible, as they have strong opinion-making powers.
JollyJoker said:
I know at least one TV show based on this: Have you seen Damages? In each episode a small part of what happens last is shown, and in each episode you see a few seconds more. The picture will change accordingly and in the end things will be entirely different than you expected.
If you know the machanism why are you so one sided with? I'm not talking the obvious wrongdoings of police, I'm talking about the whole "encasement" with which it is served. The police is rotten to the core and needs to be to plough under? How does this build their authority, even if it truly needs reforms? They still need to catch bad-guys, there are still many good cops doing their normal jobs of patroling the neighbourhood. Now their work will be obstructed with civil disobiedence like you saw on the video I linked. People like us will still be law-abiding. Thugs or frustrates will be even bolder now.
It's the same as with judistical sector in Poland. Under the guise of "fixing" it, current government made them their enemies and wrecked their authority, becasue they had their electorate hate to back it up (constant smear campaign). Funny fact: 50% of population that was in court will always be dissatisfied with them cus they lost a case There were protests sure, but because most of the society didn't give a f*ck that the judistical system was played into the govenments hands (removing and persecuting lawyers that were agaisnt the ruiling party interests etc). Judistical system in Poland is now a laughing stock, almost completly controlled by government and with no trust from the majority of population. Populace trust for the judistical system is at it's lowest in years. Even if reforms were needed, they compeltly turned it around.
You might think it's irrelevant, but this is exactly what happens when one side is shown only in bad light. It gets the populations "silent (or not) agreement" to kick their asses. While I don't sense any internal danger for the police in USA, nor any political interest, and supposedly only good might come form the reforms I think, police authority was blasted to smitherins and will be a problem in the coming months or years.
JollyJoker said:
There are riots in France and UK? Like in the US? When did that happen? Sure, there are warnings there MIGHT be (because of corona), but at this time?
Oh don't twist my words. Obviosuly the scale is not comparable (yet) but there is unrest in major cities atm.
JollyJoker said:
It has blown repeatedly and nothing happened.
Well, last big riots in America of comparable scale were in 1968s and left both the political and social landscape changed afterwards.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted June 11, 2020 06:33 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I feel so bad for the police, they have a few bad elements we know that, but this mob attitude to paint them all as thugs is despicable.
More massive hyperbole.
Please show me where the major figures calling for reform are who are painting all the police as thugs. To whom are you specifically referring? I mean actual policymakers, not another arbitrary Youtube video of a raving 20-year-old college undergraduate student. Setting up a straw man and tearing it to pieces doesn't really help the conversation.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2020 07:18 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
And I DISAGREE with that. If a plane is crashing and it happens due to human error or negligence, you don't expect a disclaimer: Viewers beware: millions of flights are completely flawless.
Is beyond my mind how you can expect someone to go through such weak comparison. If a plane is crashing, sure there will be no disclaimer that planes are safe, but if a worldwide protest movement starts to beat plane pilots, burn the planes then claim planes kill people, there will be a disclaimer within minutes on all medias, stating the truth: statistics - planes are the safest travel tool.
What us happening now is just one more cog to the daily oiled mechanism to put down Trump by all means, nothing less. That's why they will lose again, all is artificial and worthless squabble.
I feel so bad for the police, they have a few bad elements we know that, but this mob attitude to paint them all as thugs is despicable.
What kind of a nonsense post is that? If a worldwide protest movement starts to beat plane pilots and burn planes there will be no disclaimers that planes are safe - instead the fact that planes were burned and pilots beaten will be reported. There isn't any connection to plane safety I see, nor any relation to what happened. Or are you actually implying that protesters are beating up cops and cops are accidentally killing people because of that? what kind of crazy scenario is that?
I shouldn't even ask with that last bull of the daily oiled mechanism. Trump is doing his best to put himself down. That twitter access ...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2020 07:37 PM |
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blob2 said:
Yes because it coincides with my view that media are agitating the crowds even more. Verbally and visually.
What are you talking about? If crap happens, it's completely ok to be agitated. How else would anything change? People SHOULD be agitated when outrageous things happen.
Quote:
Yes but that is what they're doing in many cases - not only show the event itself, but refer to opinions that match their opinions, manipulate, show only one side of the coin etc, in too many cases even going as far as presenting their own personal, or their news stations, beliefs. Sometimes displaying obvious signs of political or different outlook aversion - something free-standing media should get away from as much as possible, as they have strong opinion-making powers.
It's called plurality of opinion, and everyone can sue everyone else, if they feel grossly screwed over. That's how the system works. Reason: No objectivity possible.
Quote:
If you know the machanism why are you so one sided with? I'm not talking the obvious wrongdoings of police, I'm talking about the whole "encasement" with which it is served. The police is rotten to the core and needs to be to plough under? How does this build their authority, even if it truly needs reforms? They still need to catch bad-guys, there are still many good cops doing their normal jobs of patroling the neighbourhood. Now their work will be obstructed with civil disobiedence like you saw on the video I linked. People like us will still be law-abiding. Thugs or frustrates will be even bolder now.
That isn't what is said or demanded. A CHANGE is demanded, a serious one, but no one says there should be no police. As it is, there is no trust whatsoever in the US police that could still be undermined.
Quote:
It's the same as with judistical sector in Poland.
It's not. It's completely different.
Quote:
You might think it's irrelevant, but this is exactly what happens when one side is shown only in bad light.
I don't think it's irrelevant. I just think that this line of arguing leads to always more pent-up anger and frustration, until it explodes. If something is wrong, it's wrong, period.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
There are riots in France and UK? Like in the US? When did that happen? Sure, there are warnings there MIGHT be (because of corona), but at this time?
Oh don't twist my words. Obviosuly the scale is not comparable (yet) but there is unrest in major cities atm.
If the scale isn't comparable - why compare?
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
It has blown repeatedly and nothing happened.
Well, last big riots in America of comparable scale were in 1968s and left both the political and social landscape changed afterwards.
Umm, you think so?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2020 08:51 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
And I DISAGREE with that. If a plane is crashing and it happens due to human error or negligence, you don't expect a disclaimer: Viewers beware: millions of flights are completely flawless.
Is beyond my mind how you can expect someone to go through such weak comparison. If a plane is crashing, sure there will be no disclaimer that planes are safe, but if a worldwide protest movement starts to beat plane pilots, burn the planes then claim planes kill people, there will be a disclaimer within minutes on all medias, stating the truth: statistics - planes are the safest tool.
It’s actually from a Chris Rock gig.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 09:51 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:58, 11 Jun 2020.
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JollyJoker said:
blob2 said:
Yes because it coincides with my view that media are agitating the crowds even more. Verbally and visually.
What are you talking about? If crap happens, it's completely ok to be agitated. How else would anything change? People SHOULD be agitated when outrageous things happen.
You're telling me it's ok to be provoking civil unrest?
JollyJoker said:
It's called plurality of opinion, and everyone can sue everyone else, if they feel grossly screwed over. That's how the system works. Reason: No objectivity possible.
Yep, so media aren't objective and agitate the crowd even more.
JollyJoker said:
A CHANGE is demanded, a serious one, but no one says there should be no police. As it is, there is no trust whatsoever in the US police that could still be undermined.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/66906846/1217232845.jpg.7.jpg)
JollyJoker said:
blob2 said:
It's the same as with judistical sector in Poland.
It's not. It's completely different.
Wrong choice of words here, my bad.
JollyJoker said:
I don't think it's irrelevant. I just think that this line of arguing leads to always more pent-up anger and frustration, until it explodes. If something is wrong, it's wrong, period.
I think we already agreed it's wrong. The problem is what comes afterwards.
JollyJoker said:
There are riots in France and UK? Like in the US? When did that happen? Sure, there are warnings there MIGHT be (because of corona), but at this time?
blob2 said:
Oh don't twist my words. Obviosuly the scale is not comparable (yet) but there is unrest in major cities atm.
JollyJoker said:
If the scale isn't comparable - why compare?
Yet again you twist my words, I originally didn't compare the scale of riots, I only stated civil unrest has also started in those countries in effect of events in USA based on the same ground - racism and social inequality.
JollyJoker said:
It has blown repeatedly and nothing happened.
blob2 said:
Well, last big riots in America of comparable scale were in 1968s and left both the political and social landscape changed afterwards.
Umm, you think so?
Uhm, what is the point of you bringing me up a list of civil unrest incidents in USA? It isn't even my words, it's the comparison being made by multiple experts in USA, to the so-called urban unrest of 1960s. While contexualy there are differences and similarities, it's the scale that's pretty similiar (yet some say 1968 riots were still more destructive).
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JollyJoker
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posted June 11, 2020 10:10 PM |
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blob2 said:
You're telling me it's ok to be provoking civil unrest?
If the representation of facts is provoking civil unrest it's okay. Sure. It's the task and the mandate of the media. As a pole, didn't you watch Matrix? Civil peace based on lies isn't worth much.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
It's called plurality of opinion, and everyone can sue everyone else, if they feel grossly screwed over. That's how the system works. Reason: No objectivity possible.
Yep, so media aren't objective and agitate the crowd even more.
What do you mean, EVEN MORE? What the hell are you even talking about? People protesting against police brutality. Police is brutal against protesters. And you expect the media to close their eyes, because it might agitate the crowd? The crowd has good reason to be agitated. The media report facts. Whether they are agitating or not is not.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
A CHANGE is demanded, a serious one, but no one says there should be no police. As it is, there is no trust whatsoever in the US police that could still be undermined.
That's just a rhyming bad apple joke.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
I don't think it's irrelevant. I just think that this line of arguing leads to always more pent-up anger and frustration, until it explodes. If something is wrong, it's wrong, period.
I think we already agreed it's wrong. The problem is what comes afterwards.
We'll see.
Quote:
Yet again you twist my words, I originally didn't compare the scale of riots, I only stated civil unrest has also started in those countries in effect of events in USA based on the same ground - racism and social inequality.
Let's just wait and see.
Quote:
Uhm, what is the point of you bringing me up a list of civil unrest incidents in USA? It isn't even my words, it's the comparison being made by multiple experts in USA, to the so-called urban unrest of 1960s. While contexualy there are differences and similarities, it's the scale that's pretty similiar (yet some say 1968 riots were still more destructive).
Let's just wait and see. I mean, the riots of the 60s don't seem to have been that successful, considering the next 50 years (and the riots now). So riots or not, the end result doesn't seem to have ended the riot cycle.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2020 10:12 PM |
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@Bloodsucker
Bad analogy, first of all, the protesters are not an institution with a hierarchic structure. Each one is responsible only for themselves. Secondly, holding out banners is not violence and there is room for hyperbole, it’s freedom of speech. We all know, there will still be a police force after all of this.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 11, 2020 10:35 PM |
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Agreed and acted on.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 10:41 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
blob2 said:
You're telling me it's ok to be provoking civil unrest?
If the representation of facts is provoking civil unrest it's okay. Sure. It's the task and the mandate of the media. As a pole, didn't you watch Matrix? Civil peace based on lies isn't worth much.
Ok, now I see where are you coming from. Explains some things.
Quote:
JollyJoker said:
It's called plurality of opinion, and everyone can sue everyone else, if they feel grossly screwed over. That's how the system works. Reason: No objectivity possible.
Yep, so media aren't objective and agitate the crowd even more.
What do you mean, EVEN MORE? What the hell are you even talking about? People protesting against police brutality. Police is brutal against protesters. And you expect the media to close their eyes, because it might agitate the crowd? The crowd has good reason to be agitated. The media report facts. Whether they are agitating or not is not.
I don't expect them to close their eyes, I expect them to to weigh one's words.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2020 10:50 PM |
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blob2 said:
I don't expect them to close their eyes, I expect them to to weigh one's words.
Why?
I mean, think about a situation YOU have had to deliver bad news to someone. Say, you break up with a girl. Do you really think, "weighing your words" is making a difference? How often did you weigh your words and the result was so bad you wondered whether it wouldn't have been better to not do so?
Weighing your words is not in the media job description.. Simply because sensibilities differ. Remember the old saying, Don't kill the messenger? The reporter isn't responsible for the facts they report - provided they keep to the truth.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted June 11, 2020 11:11 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 23:14, 11 Jun 2020.
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JollyJoker said:
Weighing your words is not in the media job description.. Simply because sensibilities differ. Remember the old saying, Don't kill the messenger? The reporter isn't responsible for the facts they report - provided they keep to the truth.
Worth pointing out, it's not only coverage of recent events, it's also the build up to them. Did media have an impact on USA's societies sentiments? I think they did. I still think they overstate their boundaries, bringing facts is one thing, but there are a whole lot of other activities they do around it. But history will judge. Hopefully they won't regret their actions: https://www.voanews.com/usa/nation-turmoil-george-floyd-protests/economic-damage-civil-unrest-may-persist-decades.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 12, 2020 08:20 AM |
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The last paragraph makes it clear that this is all speculation, yet. They really don't know anything, except that the level of destruction is far below that of the 60s so far.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2020 10:27 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 11:08, 12 Jun 2020.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 12, 2020 11:45 AM |
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blob2 said:
Pretty twisty that the club in which in Floyd worked and supposedly met with Chauvin in Minneapolis was burned in riot fires...
Pretty twisty indeed. Makes me wonder if that was caused by random rioters or the work of some umbrella guys trying to cover evidence. Cause if proven that could raise Chauvin accusation to premeditated murder.
blob2 said:
Yay protests!
I find amusing how there are people around the world ready to condemn the entire protests cause property was stolen or destroyed but show way less empathy for the people being injured or killed.
blob2 said:
yet again America makes heroes from criminals...
Talking about twists, I can't see why some are saying Floyd isn't "the hero our community needs" when he clearly isn't a hero.
He was murdered by an abusive cop with three others dispersing the crowd that wanted to help, after trying to pass a counterfeit bill, which is a felony not a life threatening crime.
No, he definitively isn't the hero here, he is the victim. Protesters are the hero, they are the ones trying to correct a wrong doing.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 12, 2020 12:45 PM |
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blob2 said:
EDIT: Meanwhile in Seattle, protesters established a no-police autonomous zone.
Yup, they did. And while Trump tries to pressure seattle into "taking it back", the local politicians have told him to go back into his bunker.
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