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| Thread: The Transgender Matrix: It’s Time to Choose the Red Pill |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 27 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 06:06 PM |
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artu said:
Your question implies that it’s something as obvious and clear-cut as being a brunette.
Inaccurate analogy, as what transgenders claim is a different sex or/and gender, not some petty characteristics a blood/DNA/scanner or whatever can't detect.
Can biologists identity the sex and gender by running a check, both by physical observation and DNA/blood etc? Yes, they can. Can they identify a third sex (let's put away the hermaphrodites for now) or gender by same scientific procedure? No.
Also, can they identify a transgender already transitioned as a different sex or gender than the one at birth? No, all analysis when out of drugs will still point to the original configuration.
I would call the whole thing as fraud, unless there is some irrefutable data that such individuals are really born different. So what remains? The mental perception of each individual, which doesn't mean they are ill but however claiming you are something no one can prove, by any scientific methods, isn't a good start.
The majority of people aren't happy about their bodies. They want to be tall, thin, have a long anaconda, bouncing boobs, nice nose, nice ears, hair implant, and so on. Everyone dreams about what he estimates he should look like, but that doesn't mean he must be that way, or that not being that way is threatening his life. And when it turns to obsession, as the esthetic surgeons can confirm, booking one can take up to 6 months today -, it may become indeed a sign of mental disturbance.
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artu
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posted May 19, 2021 06:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:34, 19 May 2021.
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But that’s the whole point, Sal. Your gender is in your brain, not as in it is a “personal preference” but as in “your brain chemistry determines the sex you feel like you belong to.” Your analogy is out of place, not mine, because ”feel” in this context, isnt like the wish to be taller, or have a bigger penis or wanting to be eagle-eyed although you use glasses etc.
Imagine someone color-blind, when they say “that shirt isnt green to me” it is not the same thing as somebody who’s not color-blind but wishes the shirt not to be green. It’s their hard-wired perception. And since your gender has no objective reference similar to the color of a shirt, the very reference itself is how you percieve yourself, it isnt wishful thinking. (Color also depends on the light of course but skipping that to keep it simple.) Why should they be wishfully thinking that anyway, it obviously is a very hard life.
And besides all this, why should it be a fraud? Who will benefit from it? Is there some political agenda when 0.00X of the population has different neurological brainwiring than the rest of us, the evil empire will prevail? It’s absurd.
It only requires some abstract thinking, we have a tendency to percieve gender as something very binary, genitals = gender. But it’s not. This tendency doubles when social norms are involved, we can easily imagine a color-blind person’s vision because it disturbs no one, it’s not a taboo.
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 06:49 PM |
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Yes, but that distinction between sex and gender you talk about, isn't crystal clear, but only conveyed by some sources.
Here is the definition of sex and gender, french wikipedia.
La distinction entre sexe et genre différencie le sexe biologique (l'anatomie d'une personne, le système reproducteur, et les caractères sexuels secondaires) du genre, qui désigne l'identité sexuelle reconnu par une société à tout individu en fonction des caractères anatomiques (vulve ou pénis).
Translated:
"The distinction between sex and gender differentiates biological sex (a person's anatomy, reproductive system, and secondary sexual characteristics) from gender, which designates the sexual identity recognized by a society to any individual based on anatomical characteristics. (vulva or penis)."
See?
Same source talks about the recent feminist ideologies, where difference between sex and gender has started to come out.
And when I say fraud, I don't talk about transgenders themselves, but the scientific support behind, which, when you dig enough, ends with nothing concrete.
The hypothesis that gender identity is an innate, fixed property of human beings that is independent of biological sex — that a person might be “a man trapped in a woman’s body” or “a woman trapped in a man’s body” — is not supported by scientific evidence.
And later :
"Compared to the general population, adults who have undergone sex-reassignment surgery continue to have a higher risk of experiencing poor mental health outcomes. One study found that, compared to controls, sex-reassigned individuals were about 5 times more likely to attempt suicide and about 19 times more likely to die by suicide."
To note also, very important:
"Children are a special case when addressing transgender issues. Only a minority of children who experience cross-gender identification will continue to do so into adolescence or adulthood.
There is little scientific evidence for the therapeutic value of interventions that delay puberty or modify the secondary sex characteristics of adolescents, although some children may have improved psychological well-being if they are encouraged and supported in their cross-gender identification. There is no evidence that all children who express gender-atypical thoughts or behavior should be encouraged to become transgender."
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artu
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posted May 19, 2021 06:54 PM |
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Well, if the transgenders themselves arent in any fraud, why do they exist according to you then? Science doesnt create or “support” them you know, only tries to explain the cause.
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 06:57 PM |
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And I am all for science trying to explain the cause. But not when you say it has found the causes - and they are biological, because it hasn't.
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artu
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posted May 19, 2021 07:02 PM |
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So all the data about hormones, genes that I linked and wont bother to again, is “political” according to you?
You can say “it hasnt” in the sense that, there is still a lot to be discovered, there usually is about anything. But it has done enough to conclude that it’s not some “delusion.” There are biological factors, that part isnt a debate anymore, how do these factors exactly play out, is of course a field of research.
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 07:05 PM |
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The main controversy is about mental disorder, people with your arguments associate it with having animus against. I consider my chronic insomnia as a mental disorder. It simply tells something is not going right.
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artu
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posted May 19, 2021 07:14 PM |
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For it to be a mental disorder, it should hinder your capacity to mentally evaluate things. And of course, not every mental disorder is a psychosis, they dont necessarily cause you to be delusional. So, going by your example, if your sleeping disorder hinders your functionality in life, it can be called a disorder of course. But it is not because you are mentally unstable. (I mean, at least I think you dont sound mentally unstable.  )
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 07:21 PM |
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Yes, when your brain doesn't react correctly at natural stimulus, be it sexual activities, sleep, eat, drugs etc there is some mental disorder involved.
My point is that the transgender issue shouldn't be presented as "normal", because it isn't. That doesn't mean those people who feel different things should be object of stigma, mocked or discriminated, just that their desires should be questioned much longer and deeper - unless there comes some scientific evidence, before allowing radical actions as surgery. But let's face it, if you let them think their perception of themselves is valid, then you have no argument to prohibit next step, sex reassignment.
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artu
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posted May 19, 2021 07:34 PM |
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Then, it may get semantical. If you consider reproducing as “the natural order of things” you can call it a disorder. But transgender or not, we dont do that anymore, people who choose not to have kids, arent seen as sick. (Although, you can actually claim that since the ordinary biological “purpose” is to pass along genes.)
If not, as long as they have a sound mind, you can call them “normal” whatever that corresponds to. Because to be able to have “psychological sexual norms” you have to stick to the basic goal of sex, right?
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Corribus
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posted May 19, 2021 07:40 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I consider my chronic insomnia as a mental disorder.
I thought that was supposed to be a sign of genius.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 07:42 PM |
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Is not about "reproducing is the natural order", but I definitely consider abnormal when someone hates his/her natural reproductive organs to the point to ask them cut off.
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Kipshasz
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posted May 19, 2021 07:43 PM |
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Corribus said:
Salamandre said:
I consider my chronic insomnia as a mental disorder.
I thought that was supposed to be a sign of genius.
It's actually both.
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Salamandre
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posted May 19, 2021 07:47 PM |
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Corribus
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posted May 19, 2021 07:48 PM |
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I sleep like a baby so it can't be true.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
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posted May 19, 2021 07:54 PM |
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted May 19, 2021 09:01 PM |
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Wait for aged! So you get extra 2 hours.
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Gandalf196
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posted May 26, 2021 03:48 AM |
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Gandalf196
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posted June 12, 2021 07:18 PM |
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fred79
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posted June 12, 2021 11:11 PM |
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the pitiful thing is, they don't look far off from that at all. then the fact they have to keep the wound open daily so that it doesn't close, and on top of that, the reeking mucous and constant threat of infection.
so powerful. so brave. so utterly mental.
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