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| Thread: H4 Ultimate Magic Overhaul - Showcase |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 02, 2021 06:08 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 03:36, 04 Jul 2021.
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H4 Ultimate Magic Overhaul - Showcase
*Now don't take these as final, since everything is subject to change and the Mass Spell plugin will restore some extra spells when ready*
H4 Ultimate isn't only about creature abilities. It's about making everything better.
H4 magic was a little too "themed". . .
Today, we will be reviewing the current changes to Heroes 4 Ultimate Chaos Magic!
Chaos Magic was in particular all about "damage". But if all your spells are damage, isn't that basically like having the same spell a lot of times?
Damage spells, you have seen one, you have seen all of them - save for a few exceptions, of course.
The showcase will as such start with CHAOS. We will have a spellbook picture, and then review the highlighted spells within, and then have a nap and say "life is good". Ok? OK.
 Chaos Magic, Page 1
(The highlights effects are only for the thread, they don't appear ingame)
 Changed school
lvl1- Curse:
Curse is now a Chaos spell. It fits in the flavor, and Curse was Fire Magic back in Heroes 3. Curse is one of the few Chaos debuffs like Misfortune. Unlike it, though, it is a debuff to damage done, not to damage taken. Death already had several debuffs even in level 1 magic, so it won't miss it much.
Changed school
lvl1- Fortune:
What is more capricious and chaotic than Lady Fortune? This is now a Chaos spell, which makes it slightly more hillarious when Leprechauns (who are, after all, mischievous creatures) cast it. This is basically the only way for Chaos to reduce damage taken, and it is fitting.
 Altered - downshifted
lvl1- Magic Mirror:
Magic Mirror is a fun, necessary spell - but as a single spell, not particularly powerful. First, your enemy has to use magic. Then it has to target them specifically at the thing you have Magic Mirror with. And the last reason for its weakness is that creatures killed by magic damage, despite triggering the mirror animation, don't actually trigger the mirror effect. So, this is now level 1, where it can maybe be more useful - sometimes.
 Enabled
lvl2- Hydra Health:
Hydra Health is one of the original "potion" spells. Though it can be cast in combat, the true power of this spell is buffing any and all heroes in your army by being cast from the adventure map.
Altered - upgraded
lvl2- Confusion:
Confusion can now affect elementals. After all, they have a mind of their own. Confusion still doesn't affect Undead or Mechanical creatures. (Elementals have new immunities too to compensate, as we will see.)
Chaos Magic, page 2
 "Created"
lvl3- Convoke Iron Warriors:
This summons Goblin Knights to your side. This is currently the only Chaos creature summon, and is present on Devils. Despite not generating as many raw HP as some other summon spells, the Goblin Knights are quite useful.
Enabled
lvl3- Euphoria:
This works the same as Mirth, except it is a level higher and can be cast from the adventure map. The morale boost will be welcomed by sorcerers, allowing them to act first in combat.
Altered - downshifted
lvl3- Mass Slayer:
I wondered if to keep this spell or turn it into something else, but at the end of the day Slayer is a fire/chaos classic and dealing 50% more damage to level 4s from all of your creatures is pretty iconic... but not very powerful. Since in enemy armies just one of their seven stacks will be a level 4, this bonus can be pretty underwhelming. So, instead of level 4, the spell is only level 3.
"Created"
lvl4- Foundry Feast:
This is a Mass Fire Aura, though the damage level is slightly lower (almost imperceptibly so) than the single-target Fire Aura (now called Fiery Assault). This is good for a damage boost for all of your creatures, though remember the damage is, understandably, Fire type.
Changed school
lvl4- Berserk:
An all-time favourite, Berserk is now a Chaos spell. Order has already got Hyponotize and now also Charm, so it won't mind the loss of this relatively inferior version. However, Chaos will rather welcome it, as it was always rather of its flavor and not a very "orderly" spell by any means. Turn enemies against eachother with this chaotic trick!
Altered - upshifted - upgraded
lvl4- Fire Ring:
Normally Fire Ring was practically the same spell as Fireball, except it had a hole in the middle. Now, it is more rare and deals more damage, being level 4.
Altered - upgraded
lvl4- Cloud of Confusion:
Much like the invidual Confusion, this can now affect elemental creatures.
And last but also most
Chaos Magic, page 3
"Created"
lvl4- Mirror Gallery:
A magic mirror that affects everything you own is actually good! Unlike the weak level 1 Magic Mirror, this "protects" your whole army, leaving the enemy little choice.
"Created"
lvl4- Venomous Pact: This spell acts like a Poison Blade for everything in your army, allowing all creatures and heroes in your side to poison attacked enemies. This is now the signature move of Ogre Magi in Might. However, sorcerers may find a good use to it if they get it, specially by sing it soon, in long and protracted battles.
Changed school
Sacrifice:
lvl4- Death Magic already had plenty of resurrections, so this Fire Magic spell is now firmly in chaos. Trade something for another different creature? That can make the battlefield pretty chaotic. Sacrifice is very situational however, and of course involves a hard choice on who to "kill". It has to have high hitpoints, but also be expendable enough...
Altered - upshifted - upgraded
lvl5- Chain Lightning:
Chain Lightning was always a cool spell. And the Solmyr signature move deserved better than being mediocre. Now as a max level spell, it can serve sorcerers as a good, although a bit unpredictable, decimator of armies.
"Created"
lvl5- From the Ashes:
From the Ashes is a Chaotic version of Divine Intervention. Although its power, as you can see, is much lower numerically, this spell should never be underestimated. It revives dead heroes and even dead summons. It also counts as a "damage" spell for the purposes of Sorcery and other bonuses, as well as a Summoning spell.
Enabled
lvl5- Infinite Mana:
The Ultimate chaos spell does nothing! Not in and of itself, of course. But this spell can do exactly what it says: Provide infinite mana to the caster. It can be cast from adventure and will restore mana as many times as needed. The 15 levels of investment for Grandmaster Chaos Magic have borne fruit! Blessed, or cursed? Your choice.
**** ******* ****
 Chaos Magic Changes - Overview:
While Chaos Magic is still about 50% damage spells, more than any other magic, and many of them are fire-aligned, there is now a small scattering of blesses and curses. Chaos can also revive in high levels -though it can never just heal-, making it quite the tantalizing choice, even if you like variety and not limiting yourself to blasting enemies mindlessly. Of course, since other magic schools can also occasssionally able to mindlessly blast stuff now, the greater choice for Chaos is perfectly balanced - as all things should be.
The damage spells in other schools also make Sorcery a bit more special and cross-magically useful instead of just being Pyromancy 2: Electric Boogaloo (even in its picture!).
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If there is enough interest in this series, I may do the novelties in Order Magic next. Stay tuned!
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kkfkkkfk
Adventuring Hero
Nothing is impossible
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posted July 02, 2021 08:07 AM |
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Good job.
There are some images with abnormal colors in the game.
It seems that the game has only 256 colors at most.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 02, 2021 09:11 PM |
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kkfkkkfk said:
Good job.
There are some images with abnormal colors in the game.
It seems that the game has only 256 colors at most.
Each layer is limited to 256 colors, but not the whole game in total that can display multiple layers.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 04, 2021 04:40 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:19, 04 Jul 2021.
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Now for the next magic... Order!
Order is the jack-of-all-trades of H4 magic, being able to do what other magics do, but normally more weakly. This is consistent with what was its role in Magic The Gathering, near certainly the "inspiration" for the H4 magic system.
Since all magics are somewhat more varied now, Order has become even more versatile in order to not lose it's versatility "edge". However on the other hand, it lost powerful spells like Berserk and part of its overpowered illusionism was nerfed. Let's see what's up.
Order Spells, page 1
Not many changes, right? Boy are you in for a ride later...
Enabled
Level 1 - Fire Resistance:
This is an adventure-castable protection spell. Useful against efreeti, fire elementals, and other stuff which uses fire attacks, breath attacks, or fire magic. However this is still somewhat niche, thus the level 1 slot.
Altered - downshifted
Level 1 - Flight:
The flight effect is not really powerful on itself. But, with the right creatures, maybe you will find a niche for it.
Altered - upshifted
Level 2 - Dispel:
In default H4, this used to be level 1. But the power level of turning *any* blessing and curse on the battlefield into nothing with a single effect cannot be so underestimated. Now more creatures apply spell effects, so this becomes even more useful.
Order Spells, page 2
As you can plainly see, over half of the spells of this page have been altered...
Enabled
Level 2 - Velocity:
Another enabled Potion spell, this one makes your heroes faster and with greater initiative, and can be cast preemptively from the adventure map before fighting. It's a single level more expensive and rarer than the Nature and Chaos versions due to this key advantage. (it may be upshifted yet again later)
Enabled
Level 3 - Aging:
A now-Order debuff dealing with Time, aging is quite powerful. It diminishes ranged attack and defense, and also halves the movement of the target - thus why it's worth for it to be a level 3 spell. Magi can also cast it, but only by attacking in melee, which will be quite rare. This spell doesn't affect undead, mechanical and/or elemental creatures.
Altered - downshifted - upgraded
Level 3 - Banish:
Banish was not only extremely circunstantial, but also weak, since it actually dealt less damage than what equivalent Nature summons could conjure. Banish is now more powerful and can keep up with almost any summon HP in damage, being also able to attack outside of LOS. Its damage also counts as summoning (unsummoning) so it gets upgraded with summoning bonuses.
Enabled
Level 3 - Freezing Attack:
This gives any target a chance to freeze attacked creatures and heroes in melee, which will make them lose 2 turns. It is castable from the adventure map on heroes. Though it may be random, the effects are quite powerful.
Altered - downshifted
Level 3 - Mass Blur:
Mass Blur was sometimes useful, but against non ranged enemies it's a dead spell. Even against ranged enemies, it will struggle to protect your weakest and more vulnerable stacks. Su, it was downshifted from level 4 to 3. As the once-superior Mass Forgetfulness isn't enabled at the time (lack of mass spell plugin), you will use this more often.
Altered - nerfed
Level 3 - Phantom Copy:
AKA Clone, phantom Image, etc. This used to be a straight upgrade from the Create Illusion spell, making you not need it ever again. Now, things are different. While Create Illusion generates an illusion of *any* creature, Phantom copy only works on the *enemie's* creatures. The copied HP got upgraded by 12% to partially compensate the utility loss.
"Created"/Enabled
Level 3 - Time Reversal:
A thing which Order lacked was healing, while Life had it in droves. The Potion of Restoration effect was thus additionally turned into this spell, which completely restores the HP of a hero or creature, while also curing Poison and Plague from it. It can be cast from the adventure map.
Enabled
Level 4 - Charm:
The short version of the borderline OP spell Hypnotize, you gain access to Charm a level earlier. Though it lasts three times than Hypnotize, it is still a rather powerful spell that can win many a game against neutrals or spell-defenceless armies.
Order Spells, page 3 (last)
As you can see, this page is full of surprises...
"Created"
Level 4 - Experimental Shock:
This is basically a weak "chain lightning armageddon". It assaults any target within LOS with a weakened Order version of Chain Lightning... including the hero that casts the spell! Using this spell is quite dangerous, but very showy, and has occassional utility as we will also see.
Enabled
Level 4 - Frozen:
Freezes the target for two turns. There is no "you can't attack it" downside like in Blind - frozen targets will stay frozen. This is rather like Nightmare, but perhaps better as it is not a mind effect, thus the high level. It does count as a Cold effect, of course.
"Created"
Level 4 - Massive Exile:
Massive Exile is a Mass version of the Exile spell, that deals damage to any and all enemy summons, animated dead and illusions (but not allied ones). Good spell if the enemy has multiple summoners. Take into account Death has more summons now and even Chaos has one. Currently this is still a bit limited (you need to face spellcasters, and they need to summon stuff), but the amount of enemies that do that is not as small as one may think (example, in the mod Mages, Genies and Toxic Sorceress may use different Raise/Illusion spells, while Devils summon).
Altered - downshifted
Level 4 - Pain Mirror:
While Pain Mirror was never useless, it also never deserved its slot as a level 5 spell. That would have to be a Mass Pain Mirror, if anything (which doesn't exist, for now). For it to work, firstly you need a creature able to take punishment, and then you need the enemy damage to it to be relevant in order to come back. This is too situational in most cases to be considered an uber powerful spell. Now as it is cheaper and more common there is at least a better reason to consider it.
Altered - upshifted
Level 4 - Universal Dispel:
Similar to the single Dispel. In default H4, this used to be level 3. But the power level of turning *every* blessing and curse on the battlefield into nothing with a single effect cannot be so underestimated. Now more creatures apply spell effects, so this becomes even more useful.
Altered - upshifted
Level 5 - Town Gate:
This is possibly the most OP spell in the entire game, and it would be even more so if the regular H4 retreat action wasn't OP to begin with. Town Gate not only can save you a return trip, but also can save you from any enemy allowing full "surrender" without paying a single coin or giving the opponent any choice. Your army will just dissappear from in front of their eyes and it is dubious there is much they could do to stop you. Thus why this needed to be level 5, at least. The flip side, of course, is that Order magic isn't "tanky" like Nature or Life is, and neither is it demolishing like Chaos is, or overwhelming like Death is; so there are chances you will actually *need* this advantage to win. Perhaps in Nature this spell would have been even more damning.
"Created"
Level 5 - Mass Aging:
This identifies all valid enemy targets and puts the Aging curse over them. The whole enemy army (except immune creatures) will instantly get a big speed cut, and moderate attack and defense debuff, making this the most powerful massive debuffing spell by a significant margin.
"Created"
Level 5 - Ghastly Fate:
You actually get a chance now, though, to actually conjure an army as Order - and not of illusions. This will take dead bodies from *All* the stacks in the battlefield and turn them into Poltergeists at your service. The potential is very high, and it can be combined with Experimental Shock to turn even your own creatures into undead spirits at your service - at least, for a single combat.
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Order Overview:
The rebalance of this magic had the challenge of making it even more versatile, buffing its weak points, while also putting outlier spells -like the formerly level 4 town gate- in line with the rest. Order has kept its spirit due to the lack of directed damage and powerful obvious summons, leaving to it the focus in turning and hindering its opponents, making it a very strategic magic to actually control.
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Comment to enable the review and showcase of the next magic school! (no, really, if nobody comments I will go into "you are posting your third post in a row, your post count will decrease"  )
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted July 04, 2021 04:48 AM |
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted July 04, 2021 12:43 PM |
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Next Post!!! 
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted July 06, 2021 07:37 PM |
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Do the graphics look that glitched in-game, or is it some side effect of screenshotting?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 07, 2021 12:41 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:43, 07 Jul 2021.
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Sorry for the delay in the new post. I am overhauling the overhaul
- that means there are changes even in order and chaos and didn't want to make more obsolete posts -
As for the graphics, even as I put it in bold letters in the first message after the first image...
Quote:
(The highlights effects are only for the thread, they don't appear ingame)
The graphics just show the modified spells - bright for added spells, dark for changed spells.
It was quite the work adding this in GIMP just for the thread, but nobody understood it 
Oh woe of me. I guess I will just not use any effects next time.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 07, 2021 08:12 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 19:33, 07 Jul 2021.
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So, in a lighter mood (?), here are some of the notes for the upcoming magic changes:
I noticed Magic was becoming a bit too strong. The more spells enabled and invented by myself were increasing the utility noticeably. At the same time, removing the more circumstantial and useless spells to make way for this change, also had the side effect of buffing Magic in general.
Magic imitating the effect of potions also means spending on them (which nobody sane did anyways) was less useful.
These changes make the game more exciting and fun, but that shoudn't mean balance should be skewed towards being pro-magic.
So what to do? On the one hand, potions had their price slightly decreased. But this isn't enough.
I notices more and more, playing Heroes 4, that spell points are not so often a limitation. Since visiting a town with a high mage guild can replenish spell points almost instantly (even level 1 will replenish spell points without having to sleep, unlike H3), and due to many map mana rechargers (six different ones, to be exact!), and the obligatory subskills to get more mana and regen, using magic isn't really expensive on your "reservoir". There are also lots of artifacts to give you more spell points and even a buyable rod that makes your spells cheaper. These are underused due to how plentiful spell points are.
So, my solution rather than changing everything was relatively easier: Giving high level spells up to 33% more spell point use, while keeping their prices across levels consistent. Notice also, how I don't reuse previously utilized numerical costs, to avoid possible confusion.
Level 1 spells:
Still cost 2 spell points. No change. Level 1 spells in many cases become quickly obsolete, and while I tried to remedy that a little, their usability certainly diminishes with game progression.
Level 2 spells:
 - Now cost 4 spell points (from 3). 33% increase. Scroll-casting cost remains same.
Level 3 spells:
- Now cost 6 spell points (from 5). 20% increase. Scroll-casting cost remains same.
This wasn't made 7 now to keep all spell tier costs in even numbers, but this decision may be revised later.
Level 4 spells:
- Cost 10 spell points (from 8). 25% increase.
Similarly to level 3, these could cost 11 points too, to be closer to the 33% increase, but besides being an odd number, it's not a very aesthetically pleasing one.
Level 5 spells:
- Cost 16 spell points (from 12). 33% increase.
Level 5 spells are really powerful in general, and not only that, but require grandmaster in a mana skill too (which means their heroes will have lots of SP already), so their cost is well justified.
The even numbers have a justification and it is that scroll cost will be exactly half as normal cost, which means it isn't rounded up for some spell levels and not others (as it happens in vanilla h4).
This will make the upgrade SP artifacts a bit more useful, as well as add a little more tactical management to spell point resources from heroes. Creatures that had a spell point nerf before will get some points restored, as this change is aimed to curb the power of magic specialist heroes foremost, not creatures.
See you soon with more news.
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted July 08, 2021 04:53 AM |
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NimoStar said:
It was quite the work adding this in GIMP just for the thread, but nobody understood it
Oh woe of me. I guess I will just not use any effects next time.
It looks like the problem was whichever filter you applied to the region caused a bunch of artificing which made it look like a glitched in-game render - which has clearly thrown a few of us. I also read the Order post a few days after the Chaos post and had forgotten. Anyway, simple colored borders or icons - really anything as long as it clearly isn't from the game - is the way to go for markup.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 08, 2021 09:00 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 09:04, 08 Jul 2021.
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I explicitely said It isn't from the game. Also pretty sure there are no color filters in the whole game. Additionally color glitches don't look like that at all - I should know, I have been modding for over 10 years in over 10 different games. Furthermore, there's the fact that the image marks coincide with the descriptions below. Spells with a are the darkened spells, while spells with a are the highlighted spells.
But well, nevermind, I already said I would not trust people's ability to read ever again, ho ho
So next there will be just unaltered screenshots.
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karmakeld
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2021 09:45 PM |
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Did you build this mod on Equilibris mod or on WoW version? Just curious if you seemibgly found the way to reenable Town Gate spell, as I recall that wasnt as straight forward a procedure as Dalai explained it to be..
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 12, 2021 09:56 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:56, 12 Jul 2021.
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It's just from default H4 Gold. The plugin doesn't work on Equilibris version. Otherwise no, we still don't know how to enable town portal there. I have used hex compare features, and seen equilibris has thousands of hex changes not even counting their DLL, and the purpose of most of them is not readily apparent (at least to someone who isn't an ace at binary hacking). They even used binary hacking for things that could be done with tables.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2021 10:14 PM |
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I'm very interested, but I'd like to see Order as the uber magic school, you see, as I've discussed multiple times in the forums, Wizards/Magi are the polar opposite to Barbarians. They are the magus of the magi, they study magic very professionaly, quasi-scientifically and, therefore, they have a mastery over it that has no rival. Order being such a metamagic school always gave me the impression that the developers were also aiming for that. Anyway, not to break the symmetry of the magic schools, while also boosting the faction's magic deparment, I have a couple of suggestions 
-Order should have FOUR magic wing buldings - yeah, right. We are talking about the magic nerds here. These guys can learn ANY magic school they like (this would entail, (right?) changing the mage class chance to get nature and chaos magic) ;
- Mana Vortex should be moved to order (same reason as before);
- Charm does not fit at all a magic-user class. I'd go for something along the lines of sorcery (its Heroes V counterpart, mind you), that is, casting spells cost less initiative (the name could be Wisdom);
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 12, 2021 10:17 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:19, 12 Jul 2021.
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Besides being unbalanced, we don't have the code means to do that currently. So your "order is supreme over all" total conversion and wizard fanatiscism will have to wait
Actually, H4 magi are more like illusionists and hypnotists, not metamages. Their spells and subclasses reflect this, aloing with Charm.
But hey, you can have the Magi with correct colors, casting two different spells on melee and a ranged attack now, so not all is lost for the cause of OP wizards.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2021 10:21 PM |
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Fair enough. I'm downloading it rn, gonna give you feedback soonish
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 12, 2021 10:23 PM |
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There's also the thing that I moved the "Infinite mana" spell to Order in the release (to keep 5 level 5 spells in each school, since Chaos got a new one), so you don't actually need the mana vortex - if you learn this spell, you will be able to make as much mana as you want
Though it *is* max level.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted July 12, 2021 10:45 PM |
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Intended?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 12, 2021 11:05 PM |
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Yes. That is part of the "hero species" module, some heroes are given creature sprites of the ones relatively fitting to their stereotype. In H4 Greatest Mod this comes with more radical portrait changes, but here I have decided to keep the classic portraits (besides the background enhancement). The main plus is that this allows, for example, to have a Mermaid boss as a map enemy.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted July 13, 2021 01:21 AM |
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Ok, first impressions
- Nice to have alternate models for heroes, but I don't think mermaid suits Calyphona. Actually, the female mage is modelled after her;
- Order magic feels weak, idk, many borderline useless spells or very situational ones;
- Nice new abilities, but I really don't like what you did to the Titan - having a 4 tier creature randomly attack doesn't feel good;
- Magi (creature) is nicer looking, but seems very weak and has a nearly useless ranged attack;
- I'm having a good time playing the game and I like the direction, but I wonder how much more you could do (like changing some fundamental things)
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