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| Thread: Ultimate Gigachad Justice Clarence Thomas has finally triumphed |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Gandalf196
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posted June 24, 2022 06:08 PM |
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Ultimate Gigachad Justice Clarence Thomas has finally triumphed
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted June 24, 2022 10:40 PM |
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Crap decision because the US will now see "abortion tourism" - some states will have it legal, some not, and people will simply move to abort - the way it has been in Europe for a long time.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 24, 2022 11:13 PM |
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Edited by artu at 01:20, 25 Jun 2022.
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Exactly. And it is quite clear that abortion, up to a certain period of pregnancy, is seen as a basic right in any developed, secular part of the world, since the fetus has yet no brain or nerve system. It isnt a sentient being, put aside being human. It has not even fish level consciousness.
Now, some people believe the minute you’re contracepted, you are blessed with a soul, which is okay as long as it is your personal religous belief. If you believe that, then YOU dont abort your fetus. Dont force your belief on others though, it has no biological value.
This ultra-conservative judge, raised in Bible Belt Georgia, educated in the Collage of the Holy Cross, is simply using a technicality to enable some states of the U.S. to enforce abortion laws similar to Congo, Libya, and of course Vatican City and so on. Not to mention, he says they should be doing the same thing about gay marriages and even CONTRACEPTION, that’s right, contraception. That would be seriously embarrasing for the Americans. 
Abortion laws in the world
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Gandalf196
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posted June 24, 2022 11:42 PM |
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artu said:
Exactly. And it is quite clear that abortion, up to a certain period of pregnancy, is seen as a basic right in any developed, secular part of the world, since the fetus has yet no brain or nerve system. It isnt a sentient being, put aside being human. It has not even fish level conscieousness.
Now, some people believe the minute you’re contracepted, you are blessed with a soul, which is okay as long as it is your personal religous belief. If you believe that, then YOU dont abort your fetus. Dont force your belief on others though, it has no biological value.
This ultra-conservative judge, raised in Bible Belt Georgia, educated in the Collage of the Holy Cross, is simply using a technicality to enable some states of the U.S. to enforce abortion laws similar to Congo, Libya, and of course Vatican City and so on. Not to mention, he says they should be doing the same thing about gay marriages and even CONTRACEPTION, that’s right, contraception. That would be seriously embarrasing for the Americans.
Abortion laws in the world
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Salamandre
Admirable
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posted June 25, 2022 12:34 AM |
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Avoid pregnancy : take pills, use a condom, abstain before marriage, train your tongue. Why is so hard?
In 2020, roughly 1 million abortions (only legal ones) were performed in US. Maybe if people worried about consequences we could reduce that number. I don't buy the arguments about "has no brain, no nerves", as abortions are performed in many countries up to 16 weeks, so no.
And anyway, if you consider abortion is a right, exactly as having weapons, freedom of expression, WHY should be subsidized while none of aforementioned rights isn't?
Life is unique and so far, seems to occur only on this planet. That sounds like a miracle. I understand abortion is necessary in specific cases, but 1 million a year? Ending a life sounds as easy as going to have a new tattoo.
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yogi
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of picnics
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posted June 25, 2022 01:02 AM |
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 25, 2022 01:11 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:39, 25 Jun 2022.
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That’s pure demagogy Sal. How do you claim it’s as easy as having a tattoo for some people, based on what? You just make that up. If nothing, it’s a surgery where they scratch the patient’s uterus. I’m sure nobody would deliberately say “just get me pregnant anyway, I’ll have my uterus scratched in a few weeks for a thousand dollars.” There are zillions of ways to have unwanted pregnancies, not to mention condoms are not a hundred percent efficient. And what legal metric can you use to ban abortions that came out of “careless” acts anyway?
Subsidizing it? That’s not the topic here. The law enables states to ban abortions. And what will that achieve exactly, people will just travel to liberal states to have one.
16 weeks limit would be exactly BECAUSE of the sentience argument, not to mention again, this not about changing that limit but baning the procedure:
“Much of the debate has turned on when fetal sentience occurs. Some are adamant that fetal sentience prior to twenty-four weeks is impossible, but other researchers do not rule it out. The development of neural networks necessary for the experience of pain might be present as early as seventeen weeks.”
Keep in mind, this is just about having pain sensors, not self-awareness, that’s even later.
Last but not least, how is “life sounds like a miracle” even an argument. That’s just fluff. Winning the lottery is also rare, is it a miracle? Life isnt a miracle, it’s rare in the universe yes, maybe unique to Earth even, but you have no problem with that while eating a chicken, squashing a mosquito or chopping a tree, do you?
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Salamandre
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posted June 25, 2022 01:41 AM |
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A fetus developing in the womb is one of various life's stages. It follows infancy, childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, mid-life and old age.
All the debate lays there and everything else is empty talk.
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artu
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posted June 25, 2022 01:44 AM |
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It wasnt empty talk when you assumed 16 week fetuses had sentience though, was it. 
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Salamandre
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posted June 25, 2022 02:30 AM |
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No, I was quoting you about "no brain, no nerves". Sentience isn't relevant, people in a coma don't have sentience yet we don't end their life because of that.
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artu
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posted June 25, 2022 02:43 AM |
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If they are brain dead, which is the actual equalivent of having no brain, we do. It’s called pulling the plug.
Besides, you acknowledge abortion is okay under certain circumstances. If you think it equals murder, do you think murder is okay under certain circumstances? Do you, in reality, treat women who had abortions as you would treat a murderer? If you will object by saying “I didnt call it murder” then what does all this talk about “just another stage of life” mean, what’s the point in it.
Woman gets raped, has an abortion, you’d be fine. Woman gets raped, has no means to an abortion, the kid is born, she drowns her. You’re not okay with it. It’s a simple concept really. A fetus until a certain stage, is not a human yet.
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Salamandre
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posted June 25, 2022 03:07 AM |
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A specific type of murder is legal in many countries, we call it euthanasia. It is strictly defined and can be performed when certain conditions are meet.
Same criteria could be used in abortion, sometimes the fetus condition may threaten mother's life, or the fetus has a medical condition which will heavily affect his later stages of development.
Fetus resulted from rape is a difficult problem to take a side in. On one side, the victim shouldn't have to undergo a double punishment by carrying the rapist's offspring, but on the other side, if you acknowledge the fetus is an human being at an early stage of development, he is innocent of everything mentioned above. So as I said, the essence of the problem lays in how you consider the fetus, is "it" an human or a piece of meat, some garbage you can dispose of.
Depending on that, the side you take will always appear as fanatical to the other side. However, one side claims "my body my choice", so is about individual comfort and "right" to free will, while the other side feels the moral burden of an innocent being murdered, moreover emphasized by using the taxpayer taxes, all of them, regardless their moral stance.
So is not really 50/50.
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louweed
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posted June 25, 2022 03:34 AM |
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This isn’t going to lower the number of abortions, it’s just going to raise the number of unsafe abortions
Whatever your moral stance on the issue of abortion, it’s a dick move
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artu
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posted June 25, 2022 03:35 AM |
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Euthanasia is a specific type of (sometimes assisted) suicide, not murder.
An early stage fetus is not a(n innocent) human yet, that’s the whole point. What makes you human is your brain, your finger nail cuts or your brain dead body also have your DNA but they are not you.
“My body my choice” is just a slogan targeting people who think they have the right to tell somebody what to do with a fetus in their own body which is not a human yet. In reality, the psychological aspect of the sitation is of course not black and white and it’s a hard process for a woman but the legal aspect is either to consider it murder and ban it or not. If the fetus is not a sentient being, it can not be murder. And even from a psychological aspect, everybody knows this, nobody (except hardcore religious fanatics) treats women who had abortions as actual murderers.
Also, it’s not just party animals who rock out and then make drunk love that has abortions other than life threaening situations. It’s just you who makes it sound like that. Let’s say we have a housewife, has three kids, financial situation is barely fit, one night her husband’s condom blows without them noticing, she finds out she’s pregnant a month later. She’s 45. She decides to abort. So now she’s a murderer? Do you realize how fanatical that sounds?
Are you suggesting that extreme majority of civilized countries except some future conservative states of America, have legalized murder then? Do you seriously believe that?
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Salamandre
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posted June 25, 2022 03:52 AM |
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What makes you human is not your brain. Many people survive without a functional brain. You will always find examples where the claims "you are human because you have this or that" are easily invalidated and contradicted by sharp reality - illnesses, medical conditions, which are for the most much longer than the 9 months of pregnancy, sometimes even definitive.
The question is: can we create an "human" without going through the fetus development stage, yes or no? If yes, then let's go for that, so abortion is no longer a problem.
Oh, we can't? Then we have a problem, a fetus looks to be a necessary, natural and unavoidable stage of human development.
Like a baby needing to babble first words, again and again, developing his senses and his intellect as time goes by, before becoming later a great speaker and thinker like artu. A 5 months old beautiful baby is babbling unintelligible sounds, should we cut his tongue because he is unable to speak intelligently?
artu said:
have legalized murder then? Do you seriously believe that?
I'm not a militant for no abortion rights. Hopefully I'm not politician neither so I don't have to take such decisions, and to say the truth I would not be able to. But also politicians suffer a lot of pressure from lobbies, medias, so unless they are above all this, they hardly can speak what they really believe in, at personal level.
That's why the supreme court decision is something interesting to watch, a first. Those guys are above the media gesticulations. However it is only a moral stance, as they do NOT prohibit abortion, only remove it as constitutional right. Which means politicians, still, will have to show balls of steels and risk non reelection if they want to prohibit it at local level. Very unlikely.
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artu
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posted June 25, 2022 04:32 AM |
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1- Many people survive with some malfunctions on their brains. Without a brain though, when it stops to function at all, you are considered literally dead. They pull the plug. There’s no sharper reality than that. Early stage fetus has no brain at all.
2- Well, you cant have a human without a fetus. (At least yet, genetic engineering is advancing fast though and it will bring on dozens of ethical dilemmas in the future.) But if we keep rolling back and back like that, you cant have a human without sperms either. So is masturbation murdering millions of potential humans? As I said, biologically, becoming human is not an instantaneous thing, unlike in religions where in a finger snap you have this metaphysical and eternal soul the moment you are contracepted. The general consensus is, sentience is the phase when you are considered an actual human.
Thanks for the compliment btw, although it was a little tongue in cheek. I like you, too. 
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Salamandre
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posted June 25, 2022 04:54 AM |
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The difference is empirical : if you don't intervene, the sperm will never grow into a baby, but the formed fetus yes, with a 100% probability.
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Gandalf196
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posted June 25, 2022 04:58 AM |
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The materialistic mindset leads one to this sort of dead end, namely the idea that humans are merely the sum of parts, instead of a cohesive whole, whose essence precedes and transcends the arrangement of parts.
Also, you should find this interesting:
Remarkable story of maths genius who had almost no brain
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NimoStar
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posted June 25, 2022 07:50 AM |
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Quote:
Euthanasia is a specific type of (sometimes assisted) suicide, not murder.
Lies, animals, dogs etc. are euthanized all the time.
Many people have their legal rights revoked becauseof insanity, mental disability etc. and their familiars would then be the ones to decide to "euthanize" them. Probably because it's cheaper than actually caring for somebody.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 25, 2022 08:53 AM |
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Everything meaningful has been said about abortion - no need to discuss this nonsense again.
There is nothing wrong with abortion, not morally, because it's an individual, personal decision, not a societal, and not socially, considering the world is full enough. All those anti-abortionists should care for the living who starve to death each year, instead of those who aren't consciously living yet. Would make a lot more sense.
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