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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2022 04:38 PM |
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Not my problem when the US Americans don't go with the times - or when you have no clue what you are babbling about which is definitely more likely.
Enlighten yourself, look at the web page of an online headshop (or just amazon) and check the vaporizers.
But maybe I should phrase that differently. If you don't want to suffer from the ill effects of SMOKING, you don't use tobacco or BURN stuff, you use a vaporizer.
Smokers can do that as well, mind you. You can get your nicotin flash without damaging your lungs with tar (and the corps are praising it as the best thing since, well, the invention of the cigarette.
Instead of following your onsessive paranoia you should once in a while inform you about new developments.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted October 30, 2022 05:21 PM |
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Edited by yogi at 17:24, 30 Oct 2022.
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10 secs of google..
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping
https://www.healthline.com/health/is-vaping-bad-for-you
careful of observer/observed...
"When you say, ‘I must be free from all conditioning, I must experience,’ there is still the ‘I’ that is the centre from which you are observing. Therefore there is no way out because there is always the centre, the conclusion, the memory, a thing that is watching and saying, ‘I must’ or ‘I must not.’
Is there a state of the non-observer, a state in which there is no centre from which you look? At the moment of actual pain, there is no ‘I’. At the moment of tremendous joy, there is no observer – the heavens are filled, you are part of it, there is bliss. This state takes place when the mind sees the falseness of attempts to become, to achieve. There is a state of timelessness only when there is no observer.
Krishnamurti in Bombay 1961, Talk 8"
..https://kfoundation.org/the-observer-and-the-observed/
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 30, 2022 05:35 PM |
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Needless to say, that's why we want to listen to fred.
Therefore I am..rarely..fred! But artu realized.. Don't say anything else.. 
I laugh your peyote..fred!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 30, 2022 07:58 PM |
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THC does damage the brain and kill brain cells. It's not the worst, but it's evidently not safe, even vaped.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2022 10:28 PM |
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yogi said:
10 secs of google..
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping
https://www.healthline.com/health/is-vaping-bad-for-you
I'm not talking "E-cigarettes". I'm talking of vaporizing real tobacco instead burning it (and vaporizing weed instead of burning it).
This stuff.
Galaad said:
THC does damage the brain and kill brain cells. It's not the worst, but it's evidently not safe, even vaped.
Who cares? How many people smoke? How many people drink? How many people stuff themselves with sugar/fast food? How many people eat more red meat than is healthy?
Asked differently, since when are things forbidden that might be bad for your health depending on how extensively you'll do them? Phrased differently, since when are they criminalized? I mean, can you imagine overweight people being tried and sentenced to a diet as long as it takes to reduce their weight to healthy levels?
And who cares whether people WORK more than is good for them? Is that supposed to be criminalized as well?
So. Let people choose theior goddamn poison, because you know what? They'll do it anyway.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2022 10:36 PM |
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all vapers are douchebags, anyway. i've never known one NOT to be. i mean, consider the ego of someone who wants to look like they're creating clouds every 20 seconds or so; it's an almost entirely public habit. it's one of the stupidest and most pussiest forms of peacocking i've ever seen. it emasculates men and makes women look like snows as easily as fey behavior, skanky clothing and tattoos.
and, i think that was vaping's actual intended goals. i don't believe for one second it was meant as some "less harmful than smoking" option. what i see is marketing and intended social degredation, in it's creation and corporate pushing. and those creators/pushers are laughing themselves all the way to the bank as completely oblivious people like jj make utterly foolish attempts at "educating people" on the "new cool thing". 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 30, 2022 11:13 PM |
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LOL, you are so clueless fred.
Let me explain it again for you, fred. Instead of BURNING tobacco (and weed) at about 500 degrees Celsius, burning up all kinds of dangerous stuff like tar that you inhale at that temperature as well (not to mention the fact that the smoke can be quite hot), you put the stuff into a gadget that HEATS the product to a temperature that will VAPORIZE the stuff you want to inhale (dissolve it into a vapor) - nicotin, THC, CBD - which lies below 200 degrees.
It's like a barbecue wikthout having the charcoal glued to the meat. Humanity calls this progress, fred.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2022 02:12 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 05:33, 31 Oct 2022.
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it doesn't MATTER how the product you're shilling works; that's not the POINT of this discussion(and you don't appear INTELLIGENT by spouting that snow, so stop it). you always focus on exactly the wrong thing, no matter what it is.
protip: stick to music topics. at least there you can contribute proactively. you actually have something worth saying, in that area.
finally, i know you don't know this, but the only people who call me clueless(or any other term you people feel compelled to dub me), are the clueless themselves. that is THE reason people call me clueless, crazy, or whatever. i don't hide from reality like many of you do.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2022 08:51 AM |
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The point is, you post like mad and very often your posts show that you are completely clueless. Like in this case.
And you are not determining what is off-topic and what not. In fact, you are the one going off-topic all the time because the only thing you are interested in is touting your paranoid obsession about the jewish globalist world conspiracy.
Save that crap for the pink elephants.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 31, 2022 09:51 AM |
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fred79 said:
all vapers are douchebags, anyway.
Fred, I've noticed you're doing some efforts lately but this is not OK. As well as other sentences you've posted, I should've penalized you a couple more times already. Antisemitism is against the CoC just as well.
I can refrain if you make a little more effort, please be so kind.
JollyJoker said:
Who cares? How many people smoke? How many people drink? How many people stuff themselves with sugar/fast food? How many people eat more red meat than is healthy?
[...]
So. Let people choose theior goddamn poison, because you know what? They'll do it anyway.
I agree. I was under the impression you were minimizing the bad effects. If there was a vote for legalizing cannabis, I would vote in favor, because people consuming it get it anyway and making it legal would cut grass off dealers feet.
However, where I don't agree with you, is about legalizing ALL drugs. This would just result in a lot of deaths that would be avoided otherwise. I don't see what good could come up from legalizing stuff like crack or heroin for example.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2022 10:55 AM |
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hopefully one day you two will understand. it'll be too late by then, and i don't even think you'll ever know that what i was saying was for your own good, either. you'll almost certainly blame whoever their media tells you to blame. if your kind make up the majority of europe, you're all doomed. oh well. keep protecting the people bent on destroying you; your ancestors would be proud.
to be back on topic, marijuana is a gateway drug. "progressivism" will see you get all the nice tranquilizers you can get your hands on. it's like none of you ever grasped that once you cross a line, the only thing to do next, is cross the next line. society snowballing downhill, and your kind actually APPLAUD it. then you rail against anyone attempting to stop the degredation and destruction.
"progressives", indeed.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2022 12:35 PM |
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Galaad said:
However, where I don't agree with you, is about legalizing ALL drugs. This would just result in a lot of deaths that would be avoided otherwise. I don't see what good could come up from legalizing stuff like crack or heroin for example.
But it's totally easy to understand.
First of all, obviously your point for legalizing Marihuana is valied for all illegal drugs. Las Vegas is based on alcohol prohibition money. The cocaine cartels own a lot of legit businesses meanwhile. And that money is used to fund things like the Taliban (Afghanistan is the biggest opium producer in the world). And so on.
Then there ARE millions of dangerous drugs already legal - the stuff you get prescribed, but prescriptions can also be forged, and a lot of people die from legal drugs - not only from those illegally obtained and not even from overdosing, but from side effects which you have with every medical drug, and that's even true for not so heavy stuff. Examples: Metamizole, legally available in countries like Germany, not available in other countries due to severe side effects.Vioxx and
basically all cox-2 inhibitors who are less harmful for the stomach then diclofenac and aspirin and ibuprofen, but have other dangerous side effects.
Tetrazepam, which is very addictive and comes with serious withdrawal problems comparable to opioids.
So society considers the legal prescription of medical drugs okay, when there is a "good" reason for it and then addiction and severe side effects and related health problems are ok. That's a fact. However, society has a problem with RECREATIONAL use of that stuff (which is folly, even medically speaking; it is widely known that a patient who feels good will heal faster than one that is unhappy and worrying too much, STILL society has the golden rule that medical drugs must not have a feel-good effect).
Society also allows other dangerous recreational drugs, and that's mainly because too many people want it. There just is no majority for banning alcohol, for example, although alcohol cost a lot of lives, both directly and indirectly.
The drugs you fear is the heavy stuff, but the thing with drugs is, people only take them regularly or continuously when they offer something. The effect must be considered positive by the consumer. Otherwise you don't use it. All numbing, pain-killing drugs - like Heroin, opioids, morphine and so on - are of value only to people in pain (I know, I'm repeating myself). Most junkies, if not all, are junkies because they suffered from life. You know, divorced parents, kid with mum, who turns tricks, kid with problems in school, life's crap. First shot - paradise. All quiet, all meaningless, no sorrow, just calm, nothing matters. Bliss.
So THESE kids will end up on something anyway, legal or not. Which leaves those who wouldn't dare to touch something like that, if illegal. You know what these kids could so? Go to a doctor, tell them their problems and try to work things out. I mean, how many people get anti-depressants? That are questionable in their effect, at best.
Crack?
Here we are at another advantage completely legalization had. Can you imagine sex education in school in a time when society considered sex before wedding a mortal sin? Same thing here. Drug education is unthinkable with all these things illegal, but are a necessity, same thing as sex education. Kids must KNOW about alcohol and what they must not and under no circumstance do, because... Kids must learn what IS out there, and it's better when everything there is out there is quality controlled. Never take anything that you don't where it comes from (and watch your drink so no one can slip anything into it.)
To sum it up: a modern society must decriminalize all the vices and CONTROL them: sex, drugs, gambling. This allows public education in school, reduces crime by probably 90 or more percent, keeps the money from flowing into offshore bank accounts and will make everyone much happier.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted October 31, 2022 01:27 PM |
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@Galaad:The main benefit of legalizing (not decriminalizing, with legalization there is still regulation and control) hard stuff like Crack or Heroine is that you can create controlled environments for users and addicts easier. Places with staff that are there to help someone going through a bad trip, where doses can be monitored and controlled, where the supply can be kept from contamination (reducing risk of death and injury from bad trips more) and it’s just generally going to be healthier and cleaner. It would also, hopefully, make it easier for people to seek out help getting over the addiction in the first place, as a lot of addicts try to hide their addiction instead of admitting they have a problem and getting help due to the stigma that those addictions come with (including the legal repercussions.)
Now, not everyone will use those facilities if they are created, it’s true. Some people value their privacy or will see it as a shameful thing even if it’s legal and accepted (see: alcoholics who try to hide their addiction from their friends and family), but such facilities would and do reduce the over-all morbidity and complications of hard drug use in the general public. The linked article is an exploration of the efficacy of facilities for drug use in particular, they don’t provide any opiates to the people that frequent them, but they could potentially be expanded to be (or be linked to) secure legalized drug supply points. Kinda like a bar… but with nurses on hand instead of a bartender to complain about their job to.
Generally better than someone buying and obtaining stuff (that they are getting anyway, as you point out about weed) they cannot assure the quality of, in quantities they don’t have full control over, in dirty drug dens where they share needles and inject into the wrong places, where they could flip and hurt other people, aye?
To make sure it’s clear, this is the only scenario in which I would personally support legalizing these kinds of drugs. Just legalizing these things and letting people use them in their own homes is super, super risky, as that’s an easy way to OD or spiral into uncontrolled, burn-out addiction. Also importantly, heroine and crack are often just a cheep, bootleg fix for people that got addicted to prescription pain killers or other opiates/ people who can’t afford prescription meds in the first place, which is much more dangerous than the prescription. Any legalization should make versions of these drugs that go through strict quality control and would by their nature be much closer to the medications they emulate, hopefully making them safer and an effective way to ween someone off of that addiction.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 31, 2022 02:57 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
That's a nonsensical point, because it wouldn't happen, because pushing yourself a needle into a vein is a pretty high hurdle and 15-year-olds doing that won't do it "for kicks". Not in these times. A 15-year-old pushing a heroin needle into their arm in their room would have fundamentally massive problems to do so.
Let me repeat that. To become addicted to a drug you must LIKE the effect of the drug. If you don't like it (and I don't think anyone who smokes liked the experience of their first smoke) you must get the impression from something that you don't get it and should further try. Which may be possible with smoking (less so now than, say, 50 years ago, but still), but believe me the effect of heroin (especially considering it would be clean, undiluted stuff), couldn't be mistaken.
And that's the point you don't seem to get: if you don't like what you get - the numbness, the detachedness, the not-caring-for-anything, een if you puke right beside where you sitting, unable to actually to something for a time until yor system has adjusted...
You must crave for that, meaning you must in some way or other SUFFER from your regular life, and in a massive way to keep at it, and if you ARE, as I said, you are a case for a psychologist/therapist anyway.
Other example. In my time cocaine was heavily diluted with speed (probably because the clients came to expect that effect, but I've read that undiluted cocaine doesn't actually have that effect at all and makes you happy and feel good in a very mild way). When I tried it, I couldn't stand the effect because I had no calm in me anymore. Couldn't sit, had to DO something, move, go somewhere, drive, dance, whatever, but not sit around with people and talk. I absolutely HATED that (but might have loved the effect of the real thing).
And here we come to the crux, because as we all know cocaine has been completely legal once, which is how Coca-Cola got their name. It was sold as a tonic and people in rural regions of the US had a bottle at home in case they got a cold or had a stomach problem, because it helped and put the country doctors out of profession, mostly, which was probably one of the main reasons it got banned in the first place - Aspirin, but better (and if you consider how successful THAT one was...).
Lastly, a 15-year old obviously couldn't get heroin legally, even if its use and production wasn't illegal. Keep in mind that heroin is used in Britain as a medical drug.
Well, they dont even sell beer to 15 year olds but that doesnt mean it is impossible for them to obtain it and obviously it was a hypothetical comparison emphasizing that in real life situations you wont treat all substances the same either, nobody will, nobody does.
The rest is you making things up only because you want to be right. Of course, people like their high but that doesnt mean they have to be psychologically bankrupt in the first place to get addicted. There is the physical withdrawal phase when it comes to hardrugs and then there is the enjoyment of the high itself. You know how junkies always say "heroin is better than sex" right, would you neccessarily need your life to be empty to return to a feeling better than sex? Does your life need to be empty to enjoy sex idself?
And to clear things out, I dont think users should be treated as felons if that's what you mean by decriminalizing. But hard drugs should not be as easily obtainable as soft drugs because not only they are more addictive, they are more deadly as well. To put it very simply, it is overwhelmingly easier to lose self control with some substances, plus overwhelmingly quicker to die when you do. That is not a psychological trick. It's very real.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2022 05:41 PM |
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I don't make things up.
There is no withdrawal after you take something for the first time.
The harder a drug is, the more "total" the effect.
The risk to die is highest when people use ILLEGAL substances they buy somewhere. Hash has been known to be "diluted" with pulverised glass. Do you want that?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 31, 2022 05:59 PM |
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I smoked ILLEGAL HASHISH in plastic, it called ASS SNOW.. Because of customs arrested the smuggler, so whole Finland got a ASS SNOW.. It hashish melted plastic with.. Police laughed.. Sick without thinking healthies..and drug users moved to stronger drugs..
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 31, 2022 07:16 PM |
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There is something else as well. As I said, shooting drugs into your vein is a pretty high hurdle (as opposed to eat or drink something), but say Heroin was legal and the stuff you'd get had medical quality.
Does really anyone think that a junkie was worse off than an alcoholic (a real one) in that case? I mean we know how alcoholism looks, right? Even though it's legal and the stuff is clean?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted October 31, 2022 10:52 PM |
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Just because you are not completely hooked in the very first try, doesnt mean you can compare it to stuff like alcohol, put aside sugar. Yes, of course there is a period when people think they can handle it, but the thing is, that is also much shorter with hard drugs and with stuff like weed or alcohol, most people actually can handle it, where as in comparison, in heroin almost nobody can. And with alcohol, even if you step in addiction zone, the intensity is usually still not the same. There is no such term as “a functioning junkie,” I woldnt write it off as impossible but it would be extremely rare, where as alchohol and weed, it is not so.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 31, 2022 11:51 PM |
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@JJ and Gnomes :
I think all this is impossible in practice. You cannot control to such extent, unless you’re some kind of totalitarian state, and even then I foresee a huge mortality increase within populations.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
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Duke of the Glade
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posted November 01, 2022 12:59 AM |
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*Posts a link to facilities that are literally two steps away from what I described, already in wide spread practice and use, which are completely voluntary and have been proven to reduce mortality.*
Galaad: Okay but that’s impossible. And also totalitarian. And also will still kill more people.
Tell me your biases without telling me your biases. 
But with less overt sarcasm, the only differences between what I was describing and facilities that already exist and have proven their efficacy are:
1) Turning the facility into a distribution point, to give the addicts who are going to them a source that makes their addiction safer and a reliable supply that doesn’t rely on some frankly quite awful druglords. Also standardizes the prices so that they don’t get price-gouged relentlessly, which is its own very well documented self-destruction and mortality spiral.
2) Regulation of products that are basically just bootleg/ unsafe painkillers. This regulation would also standardize and limit doses, since that’s part of regulating controlled substances in the first place. There are already agencies in every single country our members post from that do this. This is just expansion to new products that should be covered by them anyway.
This isn’t some pie in the sky, pinko hippie impractical nonsense that I’m proposing, it also isn’t tyrannical oversight and imprisonment of anyone found to be in possession of any relevant amount of these substances. (Yes, that was a suggestion that the current system is tyrannical, I think it’s hard to argue otherwise) It’s just a potential next step of a system already in place to reduce risks and increase the health of people addicted to stuff that they are going to get their hands on anyway. Also it’s capitalist because WE MAKE THE MONEY NOW, you don’t just give these drugs away. I mean, you could, but that’s communist and doesn’t prioritize people getting off of substances that are very rapidly deleterious to their wellbeing and ability to effectively contribute to society.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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This thread is pages long: 
