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| Thread: Conspiracy theories |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 01, 2022 11:28 PM |
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The link demonstrates that not only "white" western countries take in immigrants like you imply, there is no such pattern or ratio. (I personally had a ton of friends who moved to Japan, Russia etc., and we have millions of immigrants in this very country.) The link's purpose required no additional words to grasp but I forgot it was you on the other end. And such lobbyist organizations are an open book BECAUSE their agenda is not what you claim it is (masterplaning doom to eradicate the white man), that wouldnt require too many gray cells to grasp either. Political lobbies are not exclusive to Jews, they are a typical instrument of modern politics.
Your position is basically clinical level paranoia: Jews own every media, left, right politics, Christianity, they even invented most of these. In your head, if somebody in a position of power is a jew, that feeds your delusion, if not, that still feeds your delusion because it means they are controlled by jews. There is literally no way for you to step out of this cycle, especially in such a state of pathological frustration. You just desperately need a scape-goat for your life to make sense. Oh well, isnt it ironic that historically scape-goating (with actual goats) was a Jewish tradition. 
But you're right about one thing, it really is a waste of time replying to you. Keep insisting on seeing the world through the lens of your frustration and in the end you will be left screaming this non-sense to empty walls. You're already more than half-way there.
@JJ
So? I never said all Israeli citizens are Jewish or anythjng insuniating that by any logic. But if you claim to be one to become a citizen, it is not only your faith that is tested.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 09:18 AM |
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@ artu
I think you misunderstand the immigration laws of Israel.
If you want to become an Israeli citizen you
a) can do that because you are Jew; in this case you need all the documents that confirm that, plus some credentials of your local rabbi (to prove you are STILL a jew).
b) you can do that also, when you are NOT a jew, but one of your parents or great-parents is/was. (plus there are otrher ways as well, for example when you are married with one).
Also, this is no "biological" criteria,
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 02, 2022 09:39 AM |
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How is not a biological criteria when they ask for your DNA?
Link
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Geny
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 02, 2022 10:02 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
you can do that also, when you are NOT a jew, but one of your parents or great-parents is/was.
Sounds quite biological to me.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 10:50 AM |
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To both of you:
The DNA-test is used in some cases to determine whether you are indeed a descendent of the Jewish person someone claims to be the descendant of. So they don't check whether you have a Jewish gene, but they check whether you are indeed of the claimed relationship to a known Jew. Note, that this known Jew could also have been a convert.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 02, 2022 01:14 PM |
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Once again, relationship to a known Jew sounds biological to me. And by the way, you don't need to prove that you or the person you are related to is STILL a Jew by faith. He can be a pork eating atheist, but if he's Jewish by heritage that will be enough to get a citizenship.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted December 02, 2022 01:55 PM |
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Israeli = Atheist and Jew = religious.. I'm hoping that I'm right..
But voting! If Israel arranges.. and then you can be Israeli or not.. Impossible be Jew.. You need wife or husband for child, but you never become Jew..
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 02, 2022 02:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:42, 02 Dec 2022.
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@JJ
You are talking about a statistically very insignificant situation. If some Japanese woman converted to Judaism in 1783, her grandsons will be accepted, yes. But Judaism doesnt have missionaries. So most of the time, we are talking about biological heritage, you can be a non-religious Jew or you can be a recent convert who is not ethnically a Jew to be accepted but the second option is rare. No, of course not all Jewish people are genetically homogeneous but that's because only maternal ancestory is enough for required heritage.
Even Wikipedia's definition underlines what I mentioned earlier from the first paragraph:
Jews or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group[10] and nation[11][12] originating from the Israelites[13][14][15] and Hebrews[16][17] of historical Israel and Judah. Jewish ethnicity, nationhood, and religion are strongly interrelated,[18][19] as Judaism is the ethnic religion of the Jewish people, although its observance varies from strict to none.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 03:04 PM |
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No, YOU are talking about a statistically irrelavant situation, because it's simple:
IF YOU ARE A JEW, that is, of Jewish belief, you can immigrate to Israel. Period. You don't need any DNA-tests or something, you just need the documents that prove you are a jew. Ketubah, Bar-mitzvah-certificate, a letter of your local rabbi.
If you are NOT a jew, you can still immigrate if you can prove that a parent was a jew. Or if your marriage parther is a jew. (And they might even already be dead).
Conversely you canNOT immigrate if you were a jew, but converted to another religion.
However, you CAN immigrate if you converted in your lifetime; this needs a couple of prerequisites, but no biological ones. You have to live like a jew for a time, know the language and so on.
Lastly, correct, if your mother is a jew, you are considered a jew from birth on (but you would STILL need the documents that prove it, which means you'd have to be an ACTIVE jew, because otherwise you wouldn't have the documents nor the letter from the rabbi).
Conversely, if the father is a jew, but the mother is not, the kid is not considered a jew automatically, but that doesn't matter, because a jewish father COULD immigrate into Israel, and his kids and-non-jewish wife could as well as family). The kid could convert (later) and after the process immigrate to Israel as well.
So I dodn't see your point.
The question to consider is why anyone who isn't a jew with a quasi-spiritual relationship to the lands in question would actually WANT to immigrate into Israel, which might explain why Israel isn't exactly overrun by immigrants.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 03:07 PM |
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Geny said:
Once again, relationship to a known Jew sounds biological to me. And by the way, you don't need to prove that you or the person you are related to is STILL a Jew by faith. He can be a pork eating atheist, but if he's Jewish by heritage that will be enough to get a citizenship.
Not true. Jewish by heritage means, MOTHER is a jew. But if you want to immigrate you STILL have to prove YOU have been a jew by faith - you can't just immigrate. If your father is a jew you can immigrate only if HE is an Israeli already. If not, you are NOT a jew by heritage and must convert.
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gatecrasher
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posted December 02, 2022 04:50 PM |
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The world would be a better place without those conspiracy theories called "religions".
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 05:48 PM |
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That might well be, but since ALL known human societies have developed some kind of religion, it stands to reason that without religion humanity wouldn't have survived in the first place.
Which doesn't contradict your claim, mind you.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 02, 2022 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 19:47, 02 Dec 2022.
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JollyJoker said:
Not true. Jewish by heritage means, MOTHER is a jew. But if you want to immigrate you STILL have to prove YOU have been a jew by faith - you can't just immigrate. If your father is a jew you can immigrate only if HE is an Israeli already. If not, you are NOT a jew by heritage and must convert.
I'm sorry, I didn't know. Guess I'll have to return the citizenship I was given by mistake over 20 years ago.
Still, this whole discussion does not surprise me in the slightest. The connection between Jewish religion and people is... weird. Once upon a time all the Jewish people believed in the Jewish faith, so the two were one and the same. And even when their kingdoms crumbled that connection mostly persevered for a VERY long time. But eventually people started moving away from their faith or converting altogether. It was actually the racists that made it very clear that it doesn't matter what you believe in or whether you wear the star of David. The Pogroms, the Crystal Night and of course the Holocaust did not target people of faith, but people of bloodline. It was explained to me once that the Israeli "Law of Return", the one you described, JJ, is actually modeled after the Nuremberg Laws - anyone who was Jewish enough to be killed by the Nazis, is Jewish enough to be welcomed to Israel. At least so far. Apparently some things are going to change soon.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 08:09 PM |
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German "race laws" identified everyone with 3 jewish grandparents as "jewish", independently of actual belief or practise of the person in question. Which is "Jewish by heritage". However, the 3 grandparents STILL had to be identified as Jewish (obviously) and THEY were identified by actual FACT, that is, existing DOCUMENTS (not heritage).
When it comes to the Nazis, though, THEY thought that Jews were a "race", so that practise isn't strange.
Speaking of Israel, if a family member has jewish citizenship, kids and so on can immigrate, that's what I said. So if you are a jew "by mother", but your mother does NOT have Israeli citzenship you STILL must prove you ARE a jew (and didn't convert).
I doubt you've been jewish enough to be killed by the Nazis.
There also is some some immigration rule that has to do with whether you have relatives that came to Israel before 1970 or some such year - but obviously those who have and are not living in Israel anyway become less and less.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 02, 2022 08:17 PM |
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Oh, obviously you need proof and documents. But those documents don't need to be a Rabbi's confirmation that you go to the synagogue on Shabath or anything like that. If I recall correctly, state issued birth certificates stating you or your parents/grandparents are Jewish is enough.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 08:45 PM |
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Only when they have Israeli citizenship.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 02, 2022 08:54 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 09:22 PM |
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 02, 2022 09:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:52, 02 Dec 2022.
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@JJ
You are wrong, just read the link (or better, stop your usual stubbornness and listen to Geny's first hand experience), you can be openly faithless but if you are ethnically Jewish, you have a right to citizenship. "Jewish" is also the name of an ethnical heritage, so saying "If you are NOT a jew, you can still migrate if you can prove that a parent was a jew" is meaningless if said parent is your mother, in this regard, your jewishness is automatically inherited just like being a Turk or a German is. You can not "not be a Jew anymore" That is how ethnicity works, that is why the Nazis fixated on bloodline regardless of religiousity.
And unlike some other religions, you cant just convert to Judaism on sheer will, they have to accept you, someone cant self-identify as religiously Jewish without the approval of their clergy, at least from a citizenship point of few. This is not an easy process, it was even harder historically. The candidates (not too many to begin with) go through tests, their knowledge of scripture is challenged... Hence, it is statistically insignificant.
And my point was quite obvious, it was "as a religious doctrine, it's not easy to draw the line between faith and ethnicity in Judaism" which is underlined even in the most basic definition. "The promised land and its tribe" is the basic of the religious doctrine. It is a very old religion, some (including me) even consider it as a transmission between henotheism and monotheism. Henotheism is when you are loyal to one deity among many. During the time of pagan religions, each tribe had their own god, they didnt try to convert strangers, the idea was that their own god protected them against other gods, not that other gods were fake. You can see that in its language if you read the Old Testament, there isnt yet a fully formed monotheistic approach. So it is a tribal god.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2022 10:47 PM |
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I read the link (and not just that, this) is in German), after all I linked it, and you are wrong. You should read a bit more about this.
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