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| Thread: General Factions Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted August 25, 2024 07:09 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 19:38, 26 Aug 2024.
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General Factions Discussion
Faction discussion is always my favorite part of new heroes games so I figured it would warrant its own thread. Here are my thoughts so far:
Of the revealed factions so far, we have Temple, Sylvan, Necropolis, Dungeon, and a new faction called Hive. There will also be one more faction in the base game and probably some DLC factions if the game does well.
Temple is Castle/Haven. I'm not sure if there's much to read into from the name change or not, but from what we briefly saw in the trailer and the blog post screenshot it doesn't look like its changed too much. Griffins seem to be back, as well as some sort of Angel-like creature based on the town screenshot having what looks to be a dwelling in the sky. Also looks like there's archers, some kind of warrior priest unit, and some kind of weird magical juggernaut thing which I'm not crazy about design-wise but it could grow on me. Overall, doesn't seem like much has changed from the previous versions.
Sylvan is back, but it seems to be totally overhauled and not really the same as past Rampart/Sylvan iterations. Notably, it seems possible there might not be Wood Elves. The announcement post describes it as a "Fey" faction rather than an Elven one and the trailer gives us only a limited glimpse at them. From what I see in the trailer it looks like the Fey are more chaotic and goblin-like than Elves have been in past Might and Magic games. The only confirmed Sylvan units are Druids which are described in the blog post as being capable of spellcasting at the same level as a weak hero. Halflings and Faerie Dragons also appear in the trailer but it is unclear if either or both of them are Sylvan units or neutral ones. There seems to be some kind of weird blue deer unit as well that kind of reminds me of the Avatar movies. This version of Sylvan seems to have taken a lot of inspiration from the Fey in Songs of Conquest.
Necropolis seems to have hired an exterminator for their spider infestation which is very good. From the extremely brief look at their creatures, it also reminds me of the Songs of Conquest undead. The only two confirmed units are Graverobbers, which I assume are the weird shovel zombies, and Skeletons which Graverobbers can apparently summon. That sounds like a fun unit to me. Liches also appear in the trailer but we don't know anything about them mechanically. Overall Necro doesn't seem to be too different from its old self not that there's but room for change. In the artwork of the Heroes at the end of the trailer, the guy in the middle looks like Thant so he might be the Necro protagonist.
With Dungeon it looks like we have almost the entire lineup shown in the trailer. Troglodytes, Black Dragons, Medusae, and Minotaurs can all clearly be seen. Troglodytes are specifically mentioned in the blog post and the artwork at the end looks like there will be at least one Medusa hero. There's also a reference to a blind human living among the troglodytes but it isn't clear if that's an actual character or just a hypothetical the designer was using as an example for their worldbuilding. Interestingly, it's been pretty clearly stated that Dark Elves will still be an important part of the faction. I've never played MM8 so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jadame Dark Elves don't seem to fit with Dungeon to me. Overall this looks like it is going to be a slightly reskinned Heroes 3 Dungeon with maybe one or two Dark Elven units/heroes to satisfy the Ashan fans.
Finally, the most interesting revealed faction, Hive. Demon possessed insects. My guess is that this is their way of having a demonic faction despite the fact that Kreegans have not arrived on Enroth yet and AFAIK never ended up in Jadame. This faction concept is actually one that I've seen people throw around on these forums before in faction creation contests so it's cool that we'll see it for real. Not much else to say because not much else has been announced but I think this faction has the potential to be really cool and fun to play.
Now the 6th faction hasn't been announced yet, but I have some speculation about what it could be. It seems weird to me to announce Hive and then have a secret faction. Presumably the secret faction will be new as well, otherwise why hide it? It could also be a fan favorite people have been asking to return for years but there really isn't one that I feel makes sense to hide. Stronghold and Tower/Academy are missing from the lineup which is weird and a little disappointing, but they don't seem special enough to be a secret faction to surprise people with later IMO. Swamp Fortress would make a little bit more sense since it hasn't been in any game since Heroes 3 but I'm not sure it's popular enough for that.
Personally, my guess for the 6th faction would be Cove. Technically it would be a new faction since it's only in HotA, but it's also something of a fan favorite because of HotA's popularity. It's already been semi-canonized since the Heroes 3 board game is making a Cove expansion back, and the Heroes 3 board game is officially licensed by Ubisoft. Other possibilities are Conflux, Forge, or another entirely new faction. There's a small chance it could be Inferno but I don't think that's very likely since Hive is already sort of filling that niche. I'd love to hear other people's speculations about this.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 07:29 PM |
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What blogpost are you referring to? Can you give a link?
Rimgrabber said:
Of the revealed factions so far, we have Temple, Sylvan, Necropolis, Dungeon, and a new faction called Hive. There will also be one more faction in the base game and probably some DLC factions if the game does well.
I'm pretty sure we know all 6 base game factions, except for one's name. But we do have units and townscreen art of it though. It's the ice-themed one and with sea-looking creatures with tentacles. Or is that one of the revealed factions?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted August 25, 2024 07:32 PM |
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Oh really? I haven't seen that from any official channels. This is the only official information I've seen so far, but more might have come out: https://news.ubisoft.com/en-ca/article/62HpoWQkAIVogVkoVk8JuJ/heroes-of-might-and-magic-olden-era-unveiled-at-gamescom
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MurlocAggroB
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 07:43 PM |
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The town screens are gorgeous. They're so huge and alive. It's easily the best town screen designs we've had since 5. I'm also digging Temple's light magitek-punk aesthetic. People are calling it Warcrafty, which is justified, but I like Warcraft's designs.
Quote:
It's the ice-themed one and with sea-looking creatures with tentacles.
I wonder if they're doing a more eldritch take on Sanctuary or something. Sanctuary was the best part of VI, and I've always wished it was in a better game.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 07:55 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:57, 25 Aug 2024.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted August 25, 2024 08:02 PM |
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Oh nice! It kind of looks like a frosty Stronghold which is something I've always thought would be cool. I went back to the other thread and looked at some of the creatures and the faction is giving me really from "Others" vibes from A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones.
I definitely second what Murloc said about Sanctuary too. I would love to see it return in a good game. It sounds like more factions are planned to be added after early access if the game does well so maybe we'll see it back. Personally my hope is for Conflux to return in a more nuanced form than last time instead of just the 4 elementals arbitrarily being ranked over each other. Maybe have creatures like salamanders and mermaids and such instead of actual elementals.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 09:21 PM |
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Rimgrabber said:
With Dungeon it looks like we have almost the entire lineup shown in the trailer. Troglodytes, Black Dragons, Medusae, and Minotaurs can all clearly be seen. Troglodytes are specifically mentioned in the blog post and the artwork at the end looks like there will be at least one Medusa hero. There's also a reference to a blind human living among the troglodytes but it isn't clear if that's an actual character or just a hypothetical the designer was using as an example for their worldbuilding. Interestingly, it's been pretty clearly stated that Dark Elves will still be an important part of the faction. I've never played MM8 so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jadame Dark Elves don't seem to fit with Dungeon to me. Overall this looks like it is going to be a slightly reskinned Heroes 3 Dungeon with maybe one or two Dark Elven units/heroes to satisfy the Ashan fans
Individual Jadame dark elves could work, they are certainly cosmopolitan enough, but they certainly don't fit so well as to have Dungeon be a "dark elf" faction as the Steam page describes it, and the elven units that seem to be Dungeon-associated seen in screenshots do not look like Jadame dark elves (if you check Zydar's avatar, that's a Jadamean dark elf).
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Charrclaw
Known Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 10:39 PM |
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Got it from this Polish video, link with timestamp.
Ngl, if they can make a Lovecraftian/Eldrich themed faction it would be cool. Hard to pull off tho.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 11:15 PM |
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The factions are honestly where I have the least confidence in Ubisoft. I mean, they might tweak things here and there, but they've never really been very innovative with the themes, have they? Humsns are still 'medieval western Europe', the Necropolis is still Gothic architecture in black, grey and neon green, etc.
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MurlocAggroB
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 05:18 AM |
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My unabridged thoughts on the choice of factions:
Temple: Interesting choice of town to rename. In my opinion, Haven was basically the perfect for this faction. You hear it and it clicks -- those are the good guys, they worship the light, they're boring. It's very White mana. Temple can have similar connotations, but it can also call to mind inquisition and fanaticism. I don't think you change the name for no reason. I think this is hinting at a more religious, grey take on the town. That's in-line with how Ubisoft has treated them in the story, but this change all but locks it in for me.
Sylvan: At first, I was a little unexcited to hear that this was one of the towns they chose. It's never been my favourite, and I think it's struggled to find a identity between games outside of a vague "haughty nature town". However, the press reveal definitely perked my ears a little more. If you're going to bring back Sylvan, I love the idea of redoing it from the ground up. I think I would've preferred another take on Sanctuary or H3 Fortress instead, but this is a good compromise.
Necropolis: Not much to comment on, it'd be weird if it wasn't here. Necro is easily the most iconic faction in the series.
Dungeon: I'm of two minds. On one hand, we have a bunch of classic creatures here, and Dungeon is as always visually stunning. On the other hand, it looks like there's two dark elf creatures. It's less bad than a Heroes V lineup, but doubling up still loses some of that storybook flair that the NWC games captured so well. I just think it's so much more flavourful to encounter a horde of Harpies over a horde of... women with knives. Also apparently this doesn't gel with M&M lore. I don't know anything about M&M outside of what's in the HotA campaigns, but it's even more disappointing if they used two unit slots on something that shouldn't even be there.
Hive: Perfect rename, in my opinion. It emphasizes the fact that these aren't the Kreegans we've seen, and it ties in with their apparent demonic insect thing. Plus, Inferno never really worked for their "living flesh" aesthetic in VI, which they're doubling down on. That's also how you pay respect to the lore -- Kreegans aren't on Enroth yet, so a different faction of demons takes over their mechanical and thematic role. If I have anything negative, it's that it sucks to lose the name Inferno. That word is fun to say.
Mystery Faction: If you're gonna do a new faction, you better do it balls-to-the-wall insane. Space squids that live in the frozen wastes is certainly unique. Colour me intrigued. Although that said, "eldritch abomination buried in the ice" isn't going to shake those Warcrafty accusations. There's a lot of room for speculation with how this town will function, but with Academy's suspicious absence I wonder if this is taking over the role of the "weak units, strong magic" faction. I think that'd work flavourfully.
Other thoughts:
1. Too few factions -- I disagree. II, IV, V, and VII all launched with six towns. VI only had five for some reason. I think six is plenty, especially if we get more in expansions. The alt unit upgrades also helps keep each town even fresher, since you can basically mix-n-match between two factions inside of each faction.
2. Give Stronghold pls -- This I do agree with. Stronghold being gone feels wrong. If Necropolis is the most iconic, Stronghold is second place. I think it's a no-brainer DLC faction, but that kinda sucks that Stronghold is potentially now taking the place of something weirder like Conflux or Cove. Granted, you could argue that Squidville or whatever the sixth town is is the weird DLC town but in the base game, but it still doesn't sit right.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 04:48 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:07, 26 Aug 2024.
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I think they struck a good balance of old and new and I'm all for it.
Temple, legacy faction, mainly comprised of a variety of humans with different weapons. Very familiar aesthetically. Troops are pretty much the same we've seen before, with mages and the ranged angel(?) being a bit novel. A solid faction overall, good for introducing the game to new players. Matches a lot with Castle/Haven from Heroes 3 and 5.
95% confidence/approval
Necropolis, legacy faction with the undead flavor and dare I say a fan favorite of many, including myself. Appearance seems to be a mix of NWC-era style and Ashan style. For example the vampires look more like Heroes 3's nosferatu while the ghosts look more like the Heroes 6 incorporeal variant. Coloring is more varied, with grey, blue and red in the mix, yet still predominantly green especially in the townscreen, but at least without the neon light this time around. Lineup seems to have a majority of returning creatures, with the notable exception of the bone dragon(?) which I doubt is the one proposed by Eugene Xaar, even though it still could be. The hound and gravedigger seem to be new inclusions, welcome at that. All in all, it's about as expected of a Necropolis town.
90% confidence/approval
Dungeon, legacy faction that has seen a lot of iterations, has a big focus on greek mythological creatures such as medusae, minotaurs, hydras, and I'd say harpies too were they not completely missing thus far. We get some dark elves instead. Townscreen looks gorgeous, my second favorite from what was shown. I'd say it feels like what Dungeon we've seen in the other games, which is great.
90% confidence/approval
Sylvan, legacy faction with a focus on nature and elves, though this time around it seems to be quite different from the one in Heroes 3 or 5 and more like the Nature faction from Heroes 4. We don't have townscreen art, but there are some creatures revealed, such as druids, satyrs, pixie dragons and.. is that a serpent fly? Anyway, much of it is still shrouded in mystery, which is why I'll say that based on what can be seen so far it feels like H4 Nature met H3/5 Sylvan and now they're having a thug of war for the faction's identity. It could be a good thing or a bad thing, but it certainly is a confusing thing for me currently.
75% confidence/approval
Hive, new faction, demon-possessed insectoid swarms. Basically the Zerg of Might and Magic. I mean.. it could work, but it seems very one-dimensional, which is how everything "demonic" has been historically. But despite that, it does intrigue me more than an Inferno faction simply because it's new and has unexplored potential. Townscreen is a massive sea of onyx, charcoal, and red color, such that I can barely notice how buildings are a combination of metal, thorns, blobs of orange stuff and.. are those flower buds on the center building? Even the terrain is so twisted. And all of it makes me believe that every detail is intentionally constructed to tell the story of what this faction is about at a glance - invade and destroy. How much do I feel it's a good inclusion? Well, let's just say it has some more convincing to do.
60% confidence/approval
Ice/Sea town, new faction, seems to have a lovecraftian motif with tentacles and sea-things. I like the idea and hope the town can be placed on water and that heroes are amphibious, would be cool and no doubt a good opportunity to have that. It does make me think of Tower in some ways because of snow and magic themes, but it's a bit of a stretch. A the very least it has the most beautiful townscreen so far in my opinion and the creatures look decent too. Can we expect a kraken maybe?
80% confidence/approval
Safe to say that for now I like what I see and feel that this is the right direction for factions. What I hope for the future is a return of Stronghold and the introduction of another new faction.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 06:02 PM |
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I was never crazy about Dark Elves associated with Dungeon, I'm a bigger fan of how Warlock/Dungeon was handled in h1-h3. But if they can make a compromise that's fine with me.
The new Sylvan could be really cool. I like the "Fey faction" vibe. It helps that I liked H4's Preserve (Nature) quite a bit as well.
Hive feels like a nice spin on things, I'm glad we're getting this as opposed to the standard Infernal troops. Of course they'll remind of the Zerg or other insect-themed factions in different games, but they're quite welcome in Heroes in my opinion.
Necro and the Temple are not that surprising but there's no need to change what has worked so well before. They look good.
I'm one who actually liked the "Sanctuary" town so I'm all for an Ice/Sea faction.
Yeah, there should be Barbarians in there somewhere. And I'm even hoping from my heart for the good old swamp Fortress to make a comeback.
What do you guys say about the Wizard/Academy faction being seemingly absent? It's never been my top favourite so I'm not that upset...
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted August 26, 2024 09:02 PM |
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I gave it some thoughts and I have to confess I'm not 100% sold on the visuals.
I feel like the styles of the map and the units clash too much.
The map takes inspiration from H3-2-1, the NWC erra, while the units are more in the in the line of H7-6-5, Ubi's setting.
Then there's the fact I'm too old of a veteran and can't to take the setting out of the discussion.
It's the vision of H5+ style darkelvs in Jadame. The continent was so rich in unique ideas and all I can see are towns that are too similar to their generic incarnations (Dungeon, Temple) in a setting you could have a Lizard town from Daggerwound or Pirat based faction. Dungeon with dark dwarves and a Minotaur based Barbarian town. It just feels like a waste. And we are back in Enroth, I want my Warlock based Dungeon. You could make new faction for dark elves/dwarves.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 27, 2024 12:07 PM |
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MattII said:
The factions are honestly where I have the least confidence in Ubisoft. I mean, they might tweak things here and there, but they've never really been very innovative with the themes, have they? Humsns are still 'medieval western Europe', the Necropolis is still Gothic architecture in black, grey and neon green, etc.
On one hand I agree with you.
On the other: do we want hardcore innovation at this point? I think the target group is clearly old fans and a lot of those, iirc, would rather want 2 steps back than one forward. Some would clearly be happy if this was more or less an H3 remake. Not me, and I feel your statement. But I think too much innovation in this project - especially concernung factions - could actually be dangerous to its success.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 27, 2024 01:10 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 13:11, 27 Aug 2024.
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Jiriki9 said:
On one hand I agree with you.
On the other: do we want hardcore innovation at this point? I think the target group is clearly old fans and a lot of those, iirc, would rather want 2 steps back than one forward. Some would clearly be happy if this was more or less an H3 remake. Not me, and I feel your statement. But I think too much innovation in this project - especially concernung factions - could actually be dangerous to its success.
Okay, maybe not entirely new towns, but rejigged aethetics, a Roman/Byzantine Haven f.e. or an Ancient Egyptian Necropolis, etc.
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 27, 2024 03:01 PM |
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I think from what we've seen so far the factions are well thought. It's really cool that the team behind the game consists of H2 and H3 fans.
One thing I'd like to suggest to Unfrozen is to simplify the unit design. If you put armor, chains, helmets and what not on every creature, they begin to look the same. Make the black dragon just plain black dragon. Make the skeleton warrior just a white skeleton with sword in hand. Probably the dev team is really proud with the design, but when you look at the creatures in a battle, they are too tiny and small to see these little details anyway. In Heroes 2 and 3 it's super easy to see what is what and even guess the faction it belongs to. Now when I see the minotaur, I have to actually zoom in and try to guess what exactly is this... Sometimes less is better and it's 100% true when it comes to unit design.
So, please Unfrozen, don't look at each creature individually - yes, looking at them like this and zoomed in, they probably look super cool. But put them together in a battle or on the adventure map and you will see how similar they all look. To make them more distinguishable, make them simple. Skeleton, troglodyte and minotaur are very different creatures by themselves, but put them in armor, give them a shield and a sword and now it's difficult to see what is what...
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Nekrozerk
Hired Hero
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posted August 27, 2024 04:20 PM |
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So far I'm mostly interested in Hive and the ice town. It would be cool if demon corrupted insects turn out to be stronger than other factions individually, highlighting the main threat they are supposed to be.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted August 27, 2024 06:37 PM |
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This beetle creature looks better be replaced, it's scary.
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zydar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 27, 2024 08:07 PM |
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Ice Town for Vori Elf ? that would be interesting
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 28, 2024 06:13 PM |
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Nekrozerk said:
So far I'm mostly interested in Hive and the ice town. It would be cool if demon corrupted insects turn out to be stronger than other factions individually, highlighting the main threat they are supposed to be.
I completely disagree here, the faction should be balanced.
I can imagine them being relatively strong in combat, though, but weak on the Adventure Map...
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