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| Thread: Faction Discussion — Sylvan! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 29, 2025 09:53 PM |
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Wait... We know the full lineup yet?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 29, 2025 09:59 PM |
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I'm basically going off of this document, which I think is accurate.
MurlocAggroB said:
Link
Sylvan hasn't been revealed in full yet, but to give the condensed version, it's a fusion of Sylvan and Conflux. Instead of elves, there are elemental spirits.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 29, 2025 10:07 PM |
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Yeah, it seems like they tried to keep some of the classic roles but with different creatures. Qilin for Unicorn, Iryad for Treant, Faun as a potential Elf. It’s a logical approach, just framed in a way that clashes with expectations.
The Aqualotl does feel a bit out of place, though. If the faction is leaning into a fey/elemental theme, a water creature like that seems more suited for a different lineup, unless there's some deep lore connection we’re missing.
At the end of the day, if the faction concept works and has a strong identity, the name is the main sticking point. Calling it Sylvan creates expectations based on past games, and when those aren’t met, people naturally push back. If it had a fresh name, as you suggest, I think most fans would be more open to it.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 04:18 AM |
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Rimgrabber said:
I understand what you mean, fair enough. Do Unicorns and such live on Jadame? I'm not super familar with the NWC lore. I think the name Sylvan fits fine and I suspect they're calling it that because they already changed the name of Inferno and don't want to scare off too many returning people by having most of the factions renamed. Haven has also been renamed to Temple so at this point it leaves just Dungeon and Necropolis as being relatively unchanged.
Unicorns definitely live on Jadame - in fact, in MM8 they are present in Murmurwoods, the region identified as the home of the Sylvan faction in Olden Era, and the MM8's Obelisk Quest points to them having been present there before OE's time-period.
I will say that in the context of a Jadamean Sylvan, I absolutely would not have expected wood elves to play much if any role (but we know they are around enough in OE's take for one of them to have jumped ship to Hive) - though I could have seen dark elves living outside urbanised mainstream Alvarian society play an important role.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 05:15 AM |
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Stevie said:
Here is the disclaimer: I don't really mind the pixie-like hoplets, what's basically an earth elemental, and the phoenixes being included in the lineup, even though they have been featured in Conflux and therefore seem to be a part of that theme. What I do mind is tossing out elves (for the first time ever), unicorns and treants and pretending it's still Sylvan. Why not call it Conflux/Preserve then when it has become closer thematically? Or give it a new name like Fae or Murmurwood? Why insist on calling it Sylvan when it's so removed from it?
It's really not that removed from it at all. From my understanding, there's no large contingency of wood elves on Jadame (in fact, I was pretty surprised to see any as heroes), so it makes perfect sense to cut them from the lineup. Fauns fill a nearly identical mechanical role to them in a lore-friendly way. As for the others: dendroids/treants have only been featured in three of the town's six appearances, and while unicorns have been more consistent, they're still getting a magical horse - just one rethemed to work with the elemental theme too.
Regardless of that, it's called Sylvan because it's still predominantly The Nature Faction™, and it's communicating what this is. The elementals are spirits taking animal forms, and they're all bound by the incredible magic of the forest. It doesn't feel like Conflux, despite using so many elementals. Conflux is otherworldly, Sylvan is VERY worldly.
Also, "Fae or Murmurwood"? Do you not understand the naming convention for Heroes factions? Those are just not how towns are named.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 09:23 AM |
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I'm finding the red-brown grass to be decidedly off-putting. It's not the natural colour for a forest.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 11:34 AM |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 01:10 PM |
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It might be novel, but it's another big departure from the theme of 'Sylvan', which has always had a fairly 'natural' colour scheme of mostly greens and browns. Add in the almost completely new lineup (only the Druid and Phoenix appear in any previous town, and the latter seems to have more in common with the Arcane Eagle of H7 Academy than the literal bird of fire its name suggests), which also departs rather markedly from the more natural colours in previous version of the town, and you really have a situation where you can draw links, between this town and the previous ones, but doing so does more to highlight the disparities than quell notice of them.
I'm sure it will be a great town, but I really don't feel it's worthy of the name.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 04:27 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:46, 30 Mar 2025.
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I can see what you mean. I agree that the color feels slightly off for a faction called Sylvan, especially when compared to past games where things looked more vibrant and alive. But to me this is just nuance and I can let it slide, even though it's indeed not ideal and throws even more shade at the faction's identity. Maybe if it had the traditional Sylvan lineup I could take it as a compromise, but like this it feels aggravating.
What I do not like is this environment argument that people keep using to justify this faction's name. I've seen Elvin and now MurlocAggroB using it and it basically goes like this:
- "the faction is entitled to be called sylvan, as a woodland-themed faction"
- "it's called Sylvan because it's still predominantly The Nature Faction™"
The logic behind this argument is flawed for two reasons. One, it pretends that a faction is only its environment, which is not true, it is also its lineup. You can't have one without the other and still call it the same faction. Two, environment alone is not always indicative of what the faction is. We have multiple examples of that right here in Olden Era: a faction placed in a desolate caldera that is not called Inferno, a medieval town found in temperate grassy hills that is not called Castle, and a a faction placed in a snowy environment that is not called Tower.
For whatever reason those weren't called that way, this Conflux-like faction shouldn't be called Sylvan either.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 04:32 PM |
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Maybe they're just huge fans of The Owl House.
I don't mind the autumn-y grass, although I wouldn't complain about it getting toned down a little. Clearly they wanted to give each faction their own unique native terrain, which is why they split Grass like that. Don't hate it, but I would've preferred something closer in terms of colour to HotA's Highlands instead.
Seriously though, it's the exact same colour as the Owl House grass and trees. And that's supposed to look like dry blood.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted March 30, 2025 05:22 PM |
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@MurlocAggroB
There's literally an object called "Owl Hut" or so, and it's confirmed that at least some of the devs are Owl House fans. So yes, it's 99% intentional.
As far as the Sylvan debate goes, I don't see what's the big deal. It was clear from day 1 (at least to me) that the game will not be a "conventional" HoMM, in the sense that it will not port NWC factions 1:1 with relatively minimal changes (like some HoMMs did); or, in other words, that it will not use the most generic and sandbox-y execution for each town. That's not what this game is about - it's intentionally meant to be a bit different and exotic, as it also takes place on Jadame, and, as many of us know, each continent in HoMM has a different faction design philosophy. The game's setting and the fact that the nature archers in the reveal trailer were not elves pretty much excluded wood elves as a main race in the nature town, too.
But back to Sylvan. The general name of "Sylvan" is used in HoMM to describe the forest, nature faction, which OE's Sylvan is. And in OE's Sylvan, we have the forest-dwelling archer, the phoenix, the fairy, the sacred equine beast, and the treefolk, all classic "forest town" creatures. Whether the "forest-dwelling archer" is a wood elf or faun, that's not as important, since HoMM deals a lot with roles and identities, not only races. And the general roles and identities of this faction are perfectly in line with the overall concept of "Sylvan" we have seen in past mainline games (which begin with H1 Sorceress, and end with H7 Sylvan). Of course, at the same time, it is not absolutely necessary to call a faction which fulfills the same role the same in every game - we can see that with Temple, or with the factions in H4 (albeit there is a lot that can be expanded upon in H4's case, as HoMM suffered a huge shift in paradigm in that one particular game).
Small parentheses: "Sylvan" encompasses the role of H1 and H2 Sorceress as well, which means Pixies and Phoenixes, and, by extent, also the elemental themes from H3 Conflux (as H3 Rampart and H3 Conflux are the direct progenitors of H2 Sorceress). To that end, the Iriyad, Aqualotl, Kirin, and Phoenix represent earth, water, air, and fire. A nice detail, I would say.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:44, 31 Mar 2025.
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FirePaladin said:
Small parentheses: "Sylvan" encompasses the role of H1 and H2 Sorceress as well, which means Pixies and Phoenixes, and, by extent, also the elemental themes from H3 Conflux (as H3 Rampart and H3 Conflux are the direct progenitors of H2 Sorceress). To that end, the Iriyad, Aqualotl, Kirin, and Phoenix represent earth, water, air, and fire. A nice detail, I would say.
This is completely false and equivocating.
1. Rampart and Conflux are the direct progeny of Sorceress and represents a thematic split that distinctly places elves, treants and unicorns on one side of the spectrum (Sylvan theme), and pixies, phoenix and elementals on the other (elemental theme).
2. We couldn't talk about Sylvan up until Heroes 5 which is when the term landed, but we could understand in hindsight that this was Rampart's theme in Heroes 3.
3. In both Rampart (Sylvan theme) and Conflux (elemental theme), the ground is green and there are mountains and forests in the background. You can't invoke "nature" environment to argue that this OE faction is more Sylvan themed than Conflux themed, they both have that. The deciding factor is lineup.
4. This OE faction incorporates only the Conflux theme and calls itself Sylvan. The lineup does not have elves, treants or unicorns (Sylvan theme), but does have pixies, phoenix and elementals (elemental theme).
Please attack these points and present where the flaw is.
Again: If anyone can comfortably look at pixies, phoenix and elemental creatures and call it Sylvan, then to keep consistent with that logic they should also be able to comfortably look at the exact same lineup in Heroes 3 and call it Rampart instead of Conflux.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2025 07:56 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:00, 30 Mar 2025.
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Dungeon and Necropolis both share multiple units with their Ashan version lineups (and both names pre-date Ashan), but Sylvan has only one, the Druid, and also retains far less of the visual link as well. I'm sure it will be a great faction, but at this point it simply doesn't deserve the name 'Sylvan'.
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FirePaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted March 30, 2025 08:10 PM |
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1. My bad, that was a wording mistake on my part. "Progeny" is indeed what I meant to say there, thanks for pointing it out.
2. Still the same faction, pretty much.
3. I am pretty sure I was going for all things included, not solely environment or just lineup. Even in that case, there are subtleties, as OE Sylvan's native terrain is the one in OE which is most focused on the flora of nature - trees, mushrooms, flowers etc. In the same vein, I am doubtful that there will be a grassy terrain that is equivalent to it in this regard, which could mean that the game did a bad job at creating a "nature terrain" by making it autumnal. I personally don't think that's the case. I explain "why" in the last paragraph in my post.
4. But it does have elves, treants and unicorns, though. They might not be what old-time fans expect, as two of those creatures/roles are represented by different creatures, but it is what it is. Whether we like it or not, the faction is Sylvan. Unless faction names should be strictly copyrighted by a very narrow lineup? Still, OE's Sylvan does respect the concept of a Sylvan town - the only meaningful deviance is the lack of elves.
And technically-speaking, if coming from H3 to H5, one could say that H5's Sylvan is no longer Rampart, since it doesn't have any dwarves, and H5's Sylvan adds the too fairy-tale-ish pixies. I believe that OE's Sylvan is in a similar spot, except that instead of replacing roles (like H5 did), it replaced some races. So it's the other possible remix of Rampart and Conflux, one which is slightly more fae and elemental-leaning than H5's Sylvan is, but is still the Sylvan faction. But again, whether that's a good thing to do or not, that's another matter.
I am not sure why you give such an extreme example, with the Conflux and Rampart. There are various things which Sylvan has that Conflux doesn't, but Rampart does. Going by that, H3 could be called the exception for separating the Sylvan/Sorceress faction into two - well, it is that.
Also, I think it's worth noting that I am not strictly against your point. If OE was a mainline HoMM game, then I too would have been bothered by Sylvan not having elves, and perhaps even by it not being native to lush forestlands. I mean, the nature faction has to have elves in green forests if you want a repeat of what H3 is and was, meaning a collection of the most generic fantasy concepts for the most sandboxy chess-like TBS of a fantasy world (which is great at H3). But as OE is not a mainline game and is instead a spinoff (which is true), I am more open to such creative freedom. I consider it more of an "RPG-y" game, in that way, so one which is not following H3's generic, most classical faction design, in terms of races. Or maybe this is what is considered generic among youths today, I don't know. Dark Elves surely are better known today than over 20 years ago.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 30, 2025 08:56 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:59, 30 Mar 2025.
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Stevie said:
This is completely false and equivocating.
I'm getting Phoenix Wright objection vibes 
I don't get why you find my message gaslighting and if anything I'm disappointed you'd think that was my intent. I don't actually care if the faction is called sylvan or nature or something similar. What I said is that sylvan refers to a woodland faction and that can have numerous interpretations. If you asked me what I'd expect ahead of time I'd say elven archers, treants and phoenixes. I don't see how that makes the faction less sylvan though. NWC never settled on any particular name for most factions for the first 4 games anyway so I don't see why that is a big deal.
PS rampart is a fortification type so I never saw that as a good faction name. But that's just how H3 decided to roll so 
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 06:00 AM |
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MattII said:
I'm sure it will be a great faction, but at this point it simply doesn't deserve the name 'Sylvan'.
Oh, get over yourself. It's a town name, not some sacred rite that you have to ascend the peak of Design Mountain to attain. Sylvan is the settled-on name for The Nature Faction, and this is OE's version of The Nature Faction. It's not any deeper than that.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 10:14 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
MattII said:
I'm sure it will be a great faction, but at this point it simply doesn't deserve the name 'Sylvan'.
Oh, get over yourself. It's a town name, not some sacred rite that you have to ascend the peak of Design Mountain to attain. Sylvan is the settled-on name for The Nature Faction, and this is OE's version of The Nature Faction. It's not any deeper than that.
I know the decision is made, but I find it annoying that they changed the name of the human faction, despite the lineup of the Temple being much more similar to that of Haven, than than OE Sylvan's lineup is to either the Heroes 5 or Heroes 7 Sylvan lineups.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 01:59 PM |
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I will say I do think the name should have been changed for the simple but petty reason that it breaks from the theme the other names have (and that applied to the Ashan games too): it isn't a noun for a type of location.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 02:37 PM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
Sylvan is the settled-on name for The Nature Faction, and this is OE's version of The Nature Faction. It's not any deeper than that.
Probably more thought has been put into it on this forum than the devs did in the decision, which I wouldn’t count as a good thing.
Sylvan name gives off quota vibes. Like they were told to have at least half the factions be legacy factions or something, and conflux didn’t count. Or they just know Slyvan faction is more popular so it had to be included despite elves not existing on Jadame. The Phoenix returning was clear during early announcements but I admit the excitement lessened after realizing it’s less of a return and more of conflux take over.
Especially considering the olden era sub title. Why would a faction name be from the ubi-soft era of games in olden era - the game that returns to NWC setting. So if we get fortress as an expansion, should we expect dwarves?
Edit: I should add, credit where it’s due the line up looks fun. I just think of Conflux when I look at it, not Sylvan or Rampart.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 06:16 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:17, 01 Apr 2025.
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FirePaladin said:
1. My bad, that was a wording mistake on my part. "Progeny" is indeed what I meant to say there, thanks for pointing it out.
2. Still the same faction, pretty much.
3. I am pretty sure I was going for all things included, not solely environment or just lineup. Even in that case, there are subtleties, as OE Sylvan's native terrain is the one in OE which is most focused on the flora of nature - trees, mushrooms, flowers etc. In the same vein, I am doubtful that there will be a grassy terrain that is equivalent to it in this regard, which could mean that the game did a bad job at creating a "nature terrain" by making it autumnal. I personally don't think that's the case. I explain "why" in the last paragraph in my post.
4. But it does have elves, treants and unicorns, though. They might not be what old-time fans expect, as two of those creatures/roles are represented by different creatures, but it is what it is. Whether we like it or not, the faction is Sylvan. Unless faction names should be strictly copyrighted by a very narrow lineup? Still, OE's Sylvan does respect the concept of a Sylvan town - the only meaningful deviance is the lack of elves.
And technically-speaking, if coming from H3 to H5, one could say that H5's Sylvan is no longer Rampart, since it doesn't have any dwarves, and H5's Sylvan adds the too fairy-tale-ish pixies. I believe that OE's Sylvan is in a similar spot, except that instead of replacing roles (like H5 did), it replaced some races. So it's the other possible remix of Rampart and Conflux, one which is slightly more fae and elemental-leaning than H5's Sylvan is, but is still the Sylvan faction. But again, whether that's a good thing to do or not, that's another matter.
I am not sure why you give such an extreme example, with the Conflux and Rampart. There are various things which Sylvan has that Conflux doesn't, but Rampart does. Going by that, H3 could be called the exception for separating the Sylvan/Sorceress faction into two - well, it is that.
Also, I think it's worth noting that I am not strictly against your point. If OE was a mainline HoMM game, then I too would have been bothered by Sylvan not having elves, and perhaps even by it not being native to lush forestlands. I mean, the nature faction has to have elves in green forests if you want a repeat of what H3 is and was, meaning a collection of the most generic fantasy concepts for the most sandboxy chess-like TBS of a fantasy world (which is great at H3). But as OE is not a mainline game and is instead a spinoff (which is true), I am more open to such creative freedom. I consider it more of an "RPG-y" game, in that way, so one which is not following H3's generic, most classical faction design, in terms of races. Or maybe this is what is considered generic among youths today, I don't know. Dark Elves surely are better known today than over 20 years ago.
Alright, so we largely agree on the first three points. That's great. Then about point number 4, let me break it down because you said a lot of things I disagree with:
"But it does have elves, treants and unicorns, though."
- No, it doesn't. Elves are not fauns or satyr, treants are not earth elementals and unicorns are not qilin.
"They might not be what old-time fans expect, as two of those creatures/roles are represented by different creatures, but it is what it is."
- It's not that they might not be, they are not what fans would expect of "Sylvan", because at the forefront of this fantasy trope you have creatures that are simply missing from this faction. And entertaining this idea that similar gameplay roles means similar thematic identities is rooted in equivocation and is misleading. If these fauns, iriyad and qilin are supposed to stand in for elves, treants and unicorns, then get a stand-in name for the faction as well and no one will complain.
"Whether we like it or not, the faction is Sylvan."
- Reiterating the point in contention is not a rebuttal.
"Unless faction names should be strictly copyrighted by a very narrow lineup?"
- If you really think about it, the answer is more yes than no, but there's no need to use legal verbiage when the point is about addressing the breaking of a fantasy trope which anyone can tell is happening in OE's "Sylvan". A name is identity and identity is something concrete, recognizable and provides continuity. If you take away the core that makes it be that thing, it will inevitably lose its identity and rightfully should also lose its name. Except OE insists that the wolf in sheep's clothing is actually a sheep, which I find disingenuous among other things.
"Still, OE's Sylvan does respect the concept of a Sylvan town - the only meaningful deviance is the lack of elves."
- It doesn't respect it, you're just reiterating the point I'm contesting without addressing my arguments. I say "it's not Sylvan" for the reason that "it doesn't have any of the core Sylvan units". You're saying "it is Sylvan" without providing any form of counter-argument, but rather partially agreeing to mine by saying "it lacks elves". Address the argument.
"And technically-speaking, if coming from H3 to H5, one could say that H5's Sylvan is no longer Rampart, since it doesn't have any dwarves, and H5's Sylvan adds the too fairy-tale-ish pixies."
- A reasonable concern over selective bias which I took into consideration and wanted to avoid. That's why I asked many people around me with no stakes in this debate: "what creatures do you think of first when hearing the word Sylvan", a small experiment showing how the majority says elves, treants or unicorns in two out of the first three they give. Centaurs, dwarves, pixies, etc. are all outliers. Even someone without any knowledge of Heroes or M&M said elfs and ents. All of this to say that the identity of Sylvan is intuitive and well established beyond any reasonable doubt for both Heroes and non-Heroes fans, since it's a meainstream fantasy trope that goes beyond the confines of a single video game franchise.
"I believe that OE's Sylvan is in a similar spot, except that instead of replacing roles (like H5 did), it replaced some races. So it's the other possible remix of Rampart and Conflux, one which is slightly more fae and elemental-leaning than H5's Sylvan is"
- In this Rampart and Conflux mix that OE allegedly has, kindly point to me the Rampart part of it please, because I'm not seeing it.
"But again, whether that's a good thing to do or not, that's another matter."
- It's not a good thing to dilute a factions identity. But if you look at it as something other than Sylvan, it not only makes more sense, it's appeal increases instantly. Why do we have to go through comparisons, equivocation, cognitive dissonance, endless arguments, just to try to make things fit where they don't belong, when all of that could be blown away by changing a single word to something more appropriate, pleasing everyone in the process?
Alright, so that was for point 4. Then:
"I am not sure why you give such an extreme example, with the Conflux and Rampart. There are various things which Sylvan has that Conflux doesn't, but Rampart does. Going by that, H3 could be called the exception for separating the Sylvan/Sorceress faction into two - well, it is that."
- The Sylvan theme, or Rampart theme, or Tolkien theme, or insert-any-other-name-that-helps-you-stop-equivocating-it theme, is not the theme of H1 Forest, H2 Sorceress or H4 Preserve. I thought that was clear by now. Sorceress is the progenitor of two different themes, one of which is that theme, the other being elemental theme. Yes, Heroes 3 creating that split is the exception in NWC's universe, but it has gradually become the norm ever since, given how Ubisoft (and media in general) reinforced the concept.
"Also, I think it's worth noting that I am not strictly against your point."
- Then join? What's keeping you?
"If OE was a mainline HoMM game, then I too would have been bothered by Sylvan not having elves, and perhaps even by it not being native to lush forestlands."
- Uhm, objection, OE is a mainline HoMM game, it's not a mainline Ashan game. Very important distinction.
"But as OE is not a mainline game and is instead a spinoff (which is true), I am more open to such creative freedom. I consider it more of an "RPG-y" game, in that way,"
- OE is canon for both the HoMM series and Enroth universe. If you consider it to be a spin-off (of what even?) then that's fine, but such a take is way too arbitrary and self-serving on top of not having a factual basis to be considered an argument.
"so one which is not following H3's generic, most classical faction design, in terms of races. Or maybe this is what is considered generic among youths today, I don't know. Dark Elves surely are better known today than over 20 years ago."
- Yes, but the loss of classical faction design has always been viewed as something deplorable in this series and this "Sylvan" case only further proves it. To make it clear, my complaint is not that this faction's design is bad per se, it is that it inherits a heavy legacy baggage by calling it Sylvan, which subjects it to comparison and changes the terms of the conversation in its disfavor.
Now to Elvin:
Elvin said:
I don't get why you find my message gaslighting and if anything I'm disappointed you'd think that was my intent. I don't actually care if the faction is called sylvan or nature or something similar. What I said is that sylvan refers to a woodland faction and that can have numerous interpretations. If you asked me what I'd expect ahead of time I'd say elven archers, treants and phoenixes. I don't see how that makes the faction less sylvan though. NWC never settled on any particular name for most factions for the first 4 games anyway so I don't see why that is a big deal.
PS rampart is a fortification type so I never saw that as a good faction name. But that's just how H3 decided to roll so
"I don't get why you find my message gaslighting and if anything I'm disappointed you'd think that was my intent."
- Because you said my reasons for not seeing this faction as Sylvan are arbitrary and I made that clear in the same post. I will also not assume your intent, you're free to state it.
"I don't actually care if the faction is called sylvan or nature or something similar."
- Then first of all, change that avatar you poser  . Second, you've always lamented the decline of classical fantasy, so how come seeing it done to your own favorite faction leaves you so apathetic and indifferent now? Wouldn't you say that's a bit contradictory or at least questionable? Third, I do care about it and about faction identity in general. We are not the same.
"What I said is that sylvan refers to a woodland faction and that can have numerous interpretations."
- Here is exactly what you said: "While it's not the same faction as in H5/7, it technically still is a sylvan faction. I would not particularly mind either way but you are as entitled to not see it as sylvan for your own arbitrary reasons, as the faction is entitled to be called sylvan, as a woodland-themed faction." I already addressed the environment part by the way in my post before this.
"If you asked me what I'd expect ahead of time I'd say elven archers, treants and phoenixes. I don't see how that makes the faction less sylvan though."
- Props for honesty. Well, in your case you could say it's less Sylvan because elves and treants are missing. Am I wrong? If so, then affirm the contrary. "It would not be more Sylvan if elves and treants were in it". Sounds ridiculous? Only because it is, but make the leap to prove your point.
"NWC never settled on any particular name for most factions for the first 4 games anyway so I don't see why that is a big deal."
- That's because NWC's naming convention was smart and didn't go against the game's legacy, unlike what Ubisoft/Unfrozen seem to be doing here. This debate wouldn't exist if they gave the faction an appropriate name.
Phew, that was a lot. I don't intend to enter quote wars territory, however inglorious that might turn out to be, but don't put it past me. I'll even take it further if I have to. Why? Because name, identity and legacy are important things that I don't like muddied or diluted for no good reason. And I very much suspect that a lot more people who would agree than disagree with me on this one.
Oh, but one last thing:
FirePaladin said:
I don't see what's the big deal.
Elvin said:
I don't see why that is a big deal.
Oh? You really don't see? Fine, let me tell you how things are gonna go down: people will enter the game and select to play "Sylvan" with the baseline expectation that the faction will include at least some household names like elves, treants, unicorns, dragons, pixies, etc. I'm not entertaining the notion of whether or not this expectation exists, it absolutely exists, both inside Heroes and outside in the broader mainstream fantasy genre. Unfrozen and Ubisoft know this better than anyone, yet they reeeally wanted to include a recognizable name, so they pushed with it. And then - surprise!- none of those creatures are present in the faction! Fans get rightly upset, and now Ubifrozen face a mess of their own making.
"Haha, Stevie, you fool, what do you mean, they're all there, I see them, haha!"
- Yea bro, if a satyr is an elf just because it has a bow and an earth elemental is a dendroid just because it wears a tree stump for a trench coat, then the only one you fool with that is yourself, not the wider audience.
"Haha, Stevie, you fool, you don't have a clue, there are lore reasons why elves are not present, so it makes sense, haha!"
- Right. Suddenly it's justified to call a faction for the things that it's not. Pack it up boys - it's in the lore. You really think that after betraying such basic expectations people are gonna listen to that cart-before-the-horse type of excuse? Usually when Ubisoft made such blunders with Ashan we took the piss out of them for putting themselves into a corner, but now it flies? And what about the other creatures that are not subject to lore restrictions, what's the reason for leaving those out? What's even left to call "Sylvan" at this point?
"Haha, Stevie, you fool, I don't see what the big deal is, it's very much Sylvan as the nature/woodland faction, you saying it's not is arbitrary, haha!"
- Surely. Green grass and verdant trees are also part of Castle, Conflux and Fortress in the same game and it doesn't make them Sylvan. But I guess it does by comparison to OE's "Sylvan" which doesn't even have that apparently. This line of reasoning is not the saving grace for this faction's lack of Sylvan identity no matter how you look at it.
And that's just a taste of how conversations are gonna go. Ubifrozen is risking a lot of backlash if it goes ahead with this. It will happen. It's already happened here. People following the development of this game on discord, on reddit, or here, the dedicated fanbase so to say, are already divided on the issue and taking sides. You expect this to not be way worse on release? Wishful thinking. I am doing Ubifrozen a favor by raising the flag early on this, and I hope that Etharil takes this feedback and presents the situation upstream so that maybe, if at all possible, something can be done about the name of this faction, otherwise it's another divide in the history of an already very divided franchise. Imagining down the road, I really don't want to start adding disclaimers in conversations that the Sylvan I'm referring to is not the fake-Sylvan or Sylvan-wannabe from OE, but if that's what the future brings I guess I'll have to.
TL;DR of my position on why the "Sylvan" faction name is inappropriate and needs to change:
In Sylvan's case (to be understood as H3 Rampart and H5/7 Sylvan, not any other faction), the core has always been creatures like elves (rangers and druids), treants, unicorns and green/gold dragons. In the faction's different iterations we have seen this core combined with many outliers, of which pixies and the phoenix stand out as a tasteful nod to their progenitor faction from H2, Sorceress. It is not okay then for Olden Era to come along and start throwing out the Sylvan core, replace it with the core of another faction where the pixies and phoenix were core themselves (Conflux), give them a more nature-y facelift and then pretend it's still Sylvan! It's NOT Sylvan, it's something else masquerading as Sylvan. If it's a different core -> it's a different identity -> and should also go under a different name.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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