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| Thread: Faction Discussion — Sylvan! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 08:24 PM |
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Are there any changes you would accept to see it as Sylvan if wood elves are off the table, as they should be?
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 09:17 PM |
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LordInsane said:
Are there any changes you would accept to see it as Sylvan if wood elves are off the table, as they should be?
I realize you’re asking Stevie but I had thought about this before and wanted to answer.
One more unit that makes me think of Sylvan rather than conflux would help a lot since the majority of the line up makes me think of conflux. The water elemental exists right now as a new creature that doesn’t try to be a stand-in for any previous sylvan archetype. It also isn’t a creature from mythology, just a normal animal turned elemental.
To keep the four elements theme and make room for one more sylvan creature, I would have made the water elemental a unique summon for the Druid. I could also see the fairy/sprite being combined with the water elemental, but maybe that’s just the MTG fan in me.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 09:48 PM |
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LordInsane said:
Are there any changes you would accept to see it as Sylvan if wood elves are off the table, as they should be?
Add in either the Unicorn or Treant/Dendroid.
Honestly though, even that's weak. Regardless of lineup, this will be the first time the faction hasn't changed names when changing locations. In Enroth it was the Sorceress town, in Erather, Rampart, Axeoth got Preserve, and Ashan got Sylvan.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 09:50 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:51, 31 Mar 2025.
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LordInsane said:
Are there any changes you would accept to see it as Sylvan if wood elves are off the table, as they should be?
Any of these: dendroids/treants/ents, unicorns, green dragons, centaurs, pegasus would improve the lineup, and the more the better. Fauns, pixies and druids are good to keep. At the same time I'd feel that would ruin a perfectly good Fey/Murmurwoods/elemental faction in order to fit the name, when it would be easier by far to make the name fit the faction and keep the lineup as is.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 31, 2025 10:35 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:41, 31 Mar 2025.
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I mostly mind the Sylvan name because it reminds me of Ashan. 
Otherwise, the lineup doesn’t actually remind me of Conflux. Faun, Hoplet, Yriad, Druid, Qilin, and Phoenix all contribute to a magical forest, fairy-tale feel rather than an elemental menagerie to me.
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TrueMefista
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 10:52 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
. The water elemental exists right now as a new creature that doesn’t try to be a stand-in for any previous sylvan archetype. It also isn’t a creature from mythology, just a normal animal turned elemental.
To keep the four elements theme and make room for one more sylvan creature, I would have made the water elemental a unique summon for the Druid. I could also see the fairy/sprite being combined with the water elemental, but maybe that’s just the MTG fan in me.
That axolotl thing, beside providing a missing element, does not even remotely fit the faction, it could have been a summon, yeah, but not a unit, a neutral at best.
I would have replaced it with centaur that can be infused with water without MTGness due to Greek mythology having river manifestation appear in the form of (horned) centaur.
https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/O20.1.html
Water mane would also looks nifty.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2025 10:55 PM |
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^^ Agreed. If the Aqualotl wasn't there, I don't think I would've even put this being a Conflux fusion together. It still feels very true to Sylvan thematically.
For the record, I agree with Lord Insane about not liking Sylvan as a name for being off-theme. IMO Preserve is the only good name that the faction has had. I'm just baffled at the gatekeeping over using a name for the same faction as the source of the name. Where was this brand loyalty for Heroes V when I was talking about OE paying homage to the Ashan version of Dungeon? Honestly, it feels like y'all just wanna pick things to get mad about.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 31, 2025 10:58 PM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
Where was this brand loyalty for Heroes V when I was talking about OE paying homage to the Ashan version of Dungeon? Honestly, it feels like y'all just wanna pick things to get mad about.
Honestly, when the biggest complaint about a town is its name, that’s basically a standing ovation in the HoMM community
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 01, 2025 10:35 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:30, 01 Apr 2025.
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MurlocAggroB said:
For the record, I agree with Lord Insane about not liking Sylvan as a name for being off-theme. IMO Preserve is the only good name that the faction has had. I'm just baffled at the gatekeeping over using a name for the same faction as the source of the name. Where was this brand loyalty for Heroes V when I was talking about OE paying homage to the Ashan version of Dungeon? Honestly, it feels like y'all just wanna pick things to get mad about.
Except that only two creatures in the 'Sylvan' faction have been there before at all, and only the Druid was in in the Ashan version. Plus, although it's too early to be sure, the fact that the primary 'grass is red-brown makes it soom, to me, that we'll be getting a different visual style as well.
Meanwhile with Dungeon (a name, I will point out, that has been in use since Heroes 3, though got skipped in H4) you have the Troglodyte (H3, H7), the Infiltrator (has some visual similarities to the Shade oh H6 and H7), the Onyx Dancer is new, the Minotaur (every game since H1), the Medusa (H3, H4, H7), the Hydra (every game except H3), and the Dragon (every game since H1). So that's a lineup of at least 70% of creatures drawn from the previous game (closer to 85% of the Infiltrator proves to be similar to the shade). Necropolis has also kept the majority of its lineup from previous games, and both have also kept their iconic visual styles.
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TrueMefista
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 01, 2025 06:12 PM |
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I tried to make AI procure a watery centaur (learned that most models do not know what a centaur is), do not ask why it looks like a 3D render
Horns may make it look Ashany, but they are for both mythological compatability with that river god and to fit this version of Sylvan, as even druid has horns.
And leave axolotl for potential future Regna.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 01, 2025 09:25 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:28, 01 Apr 2025.
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I talked to 3 of my colleagues today at work and basically ran the same experiment as with other people: asked what creatures they thought of when hearing Sylvan, then showed them this faction. All three said elves and treants, two added treefolk spirits to that. One of them knew the series and was a fan when I showed the faction, but then connected the dots and understood on his own the point I was about to make and agreed with it immediately. The other two with no experience of Heroes fantasy liked it and kept liking it even after I made the point because the lineup looked good and fit the theme, though one of them said that breaking continuity of elves was a big issue after I mentioned how it was the first time in the series that that has happened. He also said that the Aqualotl looked the weirdest and that the Qilin was questionable because it's Chinese myth. And finally, all three agreed that the faction would be better off and more Sylvan with elves and treants than without.
And well, I think we've already seen these takes here too, so this shouldn't be surprising.
Leave it to me though to point these flaws to people and shepherd their minds towards the right conclusion. Hopefully, by becoming justifiably discontented about the faction, they will also become inspired to ask for the much needed name change that we all desire (even if some just secretly).
I know I'm doing my part.  
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted April 01, 2025 10:19 PM |
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One thing to notice about the history of heroes lineups, is that whenever the setting changes there usually are big shakeups like this to the lineups of familiar towns. I know the issue Stevie has is more to do with keeping the name Sylvan than with the lineup itself, but consider that this is the first time we've seen a town called Sylvan in the original universe. From a lore perspective, you could argue that this is a brand new faction filling the Preserve niche in the same way that Preserve was a new faction filling the Rampart niche and Rampart was a new faction filling the Sorceress niche.
Maybe that's a flimsy argument since afaik the name of the factions are gameplay terms that never appear in-universe but that's how I look at it, but in gameplay terms it does very much seem in line with Ashan Sylvan from what we've seen so maybe that's moot too.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2025 11:04 PM |
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Stevie said:
I talked to 3 of my colleagues today at work and basically ran the same experiment as with other people: asked what creatures they thought of when hearing Sylvan, then showed them this faction. All three said elves and treants, two added treefolk spirits to that. One of them knew the series and was a fan when I showed the faction, but then connected the dots and understood on his own the point I was about to make and agreed with it immediately. The other two with no experience of Heroes fantasy liked it and kept liking it even after I made the point because the lineup looked good and fit the theme, though one of them said that breaking continuity of elves was a big issue after I mentioned how it was the first time in the series that that has happened. He also said that the Aqualotl looked the weirdest and that the Qilin was questionable because it's Chinese myth. And finally, all three agreed that the faction would be better off and more Sylvan with elves and treants than without.
And well, I think we've already seen these takes here too, so this shouldn't be surprising.
Leave it to me though to point these flaws to people and shepherd their minds towards the right conclusion. Hopefully, by becoming justifiably discontented about the faction, they will also become inspired to ask for the much needed name change that we all desire (even if some just secretly).
I know I'm doing my part.
Unfortunately, the faction would be worse off with elves.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 01, 2025 11:50 PM |
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Stevie said:
I talked to 3 of my colleagues today at work
Working hard I see
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted April 02, 2025 12:25 AM |
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Picture this - fae-adjacent and more corporeal Kelpies instead of the super original water pokemon with a made-up name.
And Birdmen instead of Kirins (also elemental creatures in MM8, and already represented in OE by the handsome birb hero).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 02, 2025 01:25 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:27, 02 Apr 2025.
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I thought about Kelpies but they are notoriously evil, they drown and eat people trying to ride them. It doesn't fit in a good alignment faction. However, if this were a neutral town by the name of Conflux or something more appropriate... Maybe. Would still take some work to reconcile the themes, but it's a better idea than an aqualol at least.
Birdmen are about as mythical as the iriyad and the water pokemon. And you put this in between the taloned druids and the phoenix and the faction starts leaning too heavily into the birb-theme. Armor and polearm is not a good fit either. Besides, harpies already exist and are unclaimed by any faction so far, though they'd probably fit better somewhere else.
So I like the Kelpie as a creature related to the water element, just not if we think of this faction as "Sylvan", but rather as an elemental faction like Conflux or some other name. And I don't like the birdmen in either case.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ANcientDRuids
Famous Hero
(Andruids for short)
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posted April 02, 2025 02:21 AM |
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Stevie said:
I thought about Kelpies but they are notoriously evil
As are Gremlins and fairytale creatures in general?
Stevie said:
Birdmen are about as mythical as the iriyad and the water pokemon.
I disagree. Besides, being in a M&M bestiary scores them more points in my book than being mythical.
Stevie said:
And you put this in between the taloned druids and the phoenix and the faction starts leaning too heavily into the birb-theme.
Didn't notice talons on druids, yeahhhh... I'd get rid of that. They should be as Troll-like as possible, the native population of Murmurwoods. But on the other hand, Iryads refer to Slavic Wyraj, a paradise-like dimension mostly populated by beautiful and colourful birbs. Rampart was dominated by horses, HOE's Sylvan leaning more into the birb theme? Why not.
Stevie said:
Besides, harpies already exist and are unclaimed by any faction so far, though they'd probably fit better somewhere else.
Such a shame about the lack of Harpies so far. I'd love to see them in Dungeon instead of another Dark Elf. Mods can't come soon enough.
Stevie said:
So I like the Kelpie as a creature related to the water element, just not if we think of this faction as "Sylvan", but rather as an elemental faction like Conflux or some other name. And I don't like the birdmen in either case.
In my mind Sylvan is enough of an umbrella term to house Sorceress/Rampart themes and the Preserve ones (if Elementals could fit there, then they should also fit in Sylvan). Actually one of the good things that Ashan introduced.
Alternative names I thought up would be: Arborea, Mycelian, even ol' Grove. None of them are as universal thought.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted April 02, 2025 02:22 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 02:27, 02 Apr 2025.
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Stevie said:
I thought about Kelpies but they are notoriously evil, they drown and eat people trying to ride them. It doesn't fit in a good alignment faction. However, if this were a neutral town by the name of Conflux or something more appropriate... Maybe. Would still take some work to reconcile the themes, but it's a better idea than an aqualol at least.
I would point out that the dragon in western myth is almost always evil as well, but still appeared in previous iterations of this faction.
Quote:
Birdmen are about as mythical as the iriyad and the water pokemon.
Except that they're very definitely mythical, per the Tengu of Japanese myth, which is occasiomally pictured with a bird's head, as well as Leigong/Leishen of Chinese myth with the same.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 02, 2025 07:22 AM |
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I dunno, I'd like a kelpie.
I don't really see the new units as a conflux repeat, more of an excuse to add different units. I quite like the hoplets for instance. Stuff like the axolotl and iryad, I haven't decided yet.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 02, 2025 08:06 AM |
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Galaad said:
Honestly, when the biggest complaint about a town is its name, that’s basically a standing ovation in the HoMM community
Indeed. 
And this debating over a town's name shows we are still a very passionate HoMM community.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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