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| Thread: Sorry but Newbie Topic: |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 01:23 AM |
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"If you look at it carefully though, a single level 14 level hero takes as much experience just about as 2 level 10 heroes. 2 hero can visit map locations twice compared to one hero"
but you cant optimize your ways with those 2 heroes like you could with 1 hero, and a few levels men A LOT, if you ever had a close battle you know that, or if you have basic earth and want advanced sooo bad...
never use 2 mains, always only 1
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 01:54 AM |
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actually you can optimize even better
With 2 hero you can choose different skills even more than with 1 hero and that means even more optimization, and I choose 10th level comparison just because that is the base level you need to get a result from the Library of Enlightenment- but the higher the hero level goes, the better it is to use 2. You can make one hero fire and earth magic, the other water and air...etc, lot of benefits. I usually make one might and the other magic, but sometimes 2 mights or really rarely 2 magics.
As for being in that situation were you really need expert magic... it shouldn't ever happen past level 7-8 if you control your hero skill advancement very well. Sure you might have only advanced tactics, and advanced armorer compared to your opponents expert, but you will have a hero tailored more to fight what your opponent is using than otherwise, and that's more valuable than a couple levels unless both heroes are faily low level. Even better is dealing with the unexpected- making two heroes in case you are surprised, or you can surprise your opponent... I've won more than a few games because I lost the big battle, but with my other hero who was also fairly high level and a few troops went and captured opponents main town which he thought was guarded well enough and would have been if it was a low level hero. The only drawback is you don't want to lose your artifacts... but often in my experience in ToH maps there are so many artifacts that you have more than you can use for certain slots, I just give the overflow to my 2nd hero since I usually end up playing evil towns it seems and can't sacrifice them for experience.
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 02:00 AM |
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Whether to get 2 heros, a lot depends on whether your main hero is lucky enough to get the key skills right away.
If I am lucky enough to end up with a main hero that at level 10 has Expert Wisdom/Earth/Logistics/Int, then I can probably build a secondary hero. On the other hand, if something randomly entered the mix, then I might need level 13 or higher to get Expert Wisdom/Earth/Logistics/Int.
As for the question of gold capitol verses creature generation, it depends on the map resources, and whether you have enough to buy everything. Last game I played (last weekend) was random/medium/king/tough monstoes. I went for capitol first, and by week 4, I STILL could not buy all of the good creatures I was generating. Money was the bottleneck, not creature availability.
What good does it do you to have 4 weeks of creature generation, if you can't afford to buy them? They don't add to your army unless you have enough gold to purchase them. With capitol paying for itself in 5 days, you have to be playing a pretty small map for an early capitol not to have given a good return by week 3-4. It boils down to this: am I willing to give up 14,000 gold in order to have one extra weeks production of the higher level creatures available to purchase? Usually not.
Incidentally, in our random map, I was playing conflux, and there were 4 firebird lairs, so it cost a lot of money to buy the 16 or so Phoenixes I was generating/harvesting each week.
If you played on a small map, then forget capitol, you are going to be in each other's face in 1 or 2 weeks. Or if the random creatures are a pushover, even a medium map could have a battle in week 2-3.
As I said before, a lot of the decision has to be made based on the map that you are using, how much time before you will engage your opponent, and whether your bottleneck is money or creature generation.
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 02:10 AM |
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i cant imagine how that works ichon, that MUST cost you time no matter how good you play it compared to using only 1 main...and besides that what is it really good for? if your main looses the battle he surrenders or you give up, depends, a 2nd hero wont help...if you cant flee coz shakles or something and opp gets arts you are lost anyway, no 2nd hero will change that
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 02:29 AM |
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Edited By: Ichon on 11 Jun 2002
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actually andi
The worst thing about using 2 heroes is as you pointed out that if you lose battle and can't flee all artifacts gone also. But- I don't make a point of losing the main battle. ;-) It's only happened a few times, and of those times, about only 50% the time were shackles present or I was D-doored and attacked while in castle.
As for taking time... you'd be amazed, 2 heroes clear the map way faster than one. Also- on open maps two heroes are way better because you can split your army and take out part of opponents area also. If you scout well and don't get too greedy so you can't chain your halves around in cause your opponent attacks you... alot of times you can get 2 hero equal experience to your opponents one hero.
I'll admit I play open map way more than closed ones, and randoms alot also where being able to have strong hero for defense of homelands is almost as important as having a good hero out attacking. It's more difficult to accomplish 2 hero on a closed map, but I've done it before. HG for example can be cleared and your artifact on island gotten much easier with 2 high level hero than one. I always just barely getting my artifact by week 2 on HG with 1 hero, but with 2 hero one hero gets artifact, and I chain it to other hero who then goes into middle. It's much faster than trying to do that with 1 hero, or losing more of your units than needed trying to fight battles with low level heroes. Also DW... very good example, my hero who gets the chest usually goes for quest arty quick as I breakthru, the other guy fights the nearby monsters and tries for utopia- if you chain your army between your 2 hero you can do both in same week, and also choose which hero gets the quest bonus.
Maps which 2 hero doesn't work as well on are smaller type maps like BM, or BfH, there just isn't enough experience usually on those maps. I did manage it once on BfH, getting 2 level 10 hero by taking alot of chests for experience rather than gold, then fighting as many battles chaining army week 2-3 as I could and finally getting both heroes to the Library of Enlightenment by end of week 3. I could control both sides of the map with 2 strong hero on each side, I was lucky though cause opponent coulda disrupted my chain which was essential by passing up some heroes to take out my chain which was in the swamp in middle.
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KissBlade
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 12, 2002 09:12 PM |
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some of the tips here are really nice, I definitely want to try the double hero business though having a gathering hero and a main power hero is kinda foreign to me for Necro, Usually my main hero does my harvesting for me all the time.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 10:46 PM |
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chaining
Using 2 hero you need to chain very effeciently though. I played H3 so long I don't really need to count out the distance anymore, I can just look at map and tell within a couple tiles how far my hero can go on what terrain, but when I first started I had to count out every turn to make sure my chain would connect.
The other thing is you need at least 8 hero out on the map all the time as soon as you can usually, if the map is very big at all, and also if there are any neutral towns you should buy 9-10 hero and leave the extra in the garrisons. That way you cent get an even longer chain going. Plan for your chain to reach where you are going to go, not where you are, and if you don't need all 6 intervening chain link heroes to reach distance, keek the leftover around anyway- if your opponent tries to break yoru chain you'll need extra heroes.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 11:23 PM |
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mmontgomery
The longer the game goes the less need to build capitol early. It goes like this- if you wait to build capitol then you can with most towns get your 7th dwelling week 1- a couple towns you can get it and citadel or with the 2 might towns even get castle. So that means 2-3 7th levels on week 2. Now your 7th level are quicker usually then any other level and stronger. To fight your 1-5th level neutral monsters usually you only need your 7th level creatures. So it's cheaper to get your 7th level early since you don't lose creatures as they have the HP to last the battle, and you move over map quicker. It's more effecient. Also- for when you finally battle you human opponent in multi games, it's essential to have nearly the same amount of 7th level usually otehrwise you are dead already. Lot of other things come into play, but if your heroes are relatively equal and neither of you has totally overpowering artifacts, then it comes down to battle tactics, and having same or more 7th level gives you more options. Alot of time you don't buy your entire creature lineup because you don't have the gold. Almost every town has a weak creature so just don't buy that one. Like Necro for instance usually doesn't buy the wraith dwelling until really late since it isn't needed for any prerequisite building, and it's better to get the VL and bone dragon up early.
So let's say an extreme example here; a stronghold went, town hall, wolf pen, orcs, t-bird, behemoth, citadel, and castle in week 1, that gives them, 8 t-bird, and 3 behemoths week 2. In contrast a rampart player built, mage guild, town hall, market, first aid tent, city hall, citadel, castle, so on week 2 they have only centaurs growth and everything else what is bought on that day. The rampart player might manage to get his dragons week 2, but he is behind by two 7th's and multiple lower levels. Also fighting in week 2 is really hard without better creatures. If battle with opponent comes in week 3, or 4- he is way behind.
More likely even than that is stronghold same build, but this time vs dungeon who builds, mage guild, town hall, harpy nest, beholder lair, medusa hall, scorpicore, citadel in week 1, so week 2 has 5 scorpicores, and some lower levels... same situation but not quite as bad since you can fight most week 2 type battles with 5 scorpicores and the red dragon you can probably buy... but still way behind vs opponent.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted June 12, 2002 11:36 PM |
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a few comments:
Ichon, if u talk about TOH maps you should be able to make lvl 7 creatures first week whatever town type.
If you talking randoms just pick Shakti with dungeon and youll reckon what speed is all about. Crashing convs day1 could be made if smallest/almost smallest conv. Which means you get lvl 7 creature day one. Or you find a drag dwell and you can crash that one too with out probs day1 as long as u got adv tactics. So by that you will have drag first day and another one when summon building built. With this im offcourse not saying u will find small conv/drag dwell day1, but ive found em several times first week. Just thought that should be mentioned
My problem with dung at randoms isnt about getting creatures fast, its about getting the cash to buy em. Im always short on cash when playing dung, and thats the #1 reason i dun like em anymore. At L+under they are awesome since you will prolly meet week3 or earlier and you could have crashed some convs or other banks at that time which will give u a fast advantage.
As for rampart its almost impossible to get lvl 7 creatures first week at a random, but i usually make em week 2. And if my opponent has made his lvl 7 first week...then good for him. There are still plenty of ways to turn the game around.
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"Youre zeroes and ones, youre wrong where im right"
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 11:52 PM |
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mebe it dif now
I didn't play Toh this last year at all and only a few games the year before that, but when I played alot the first 2-3 seasons most maps only gave you 1st level dwelling and town hall for free. I noticed when I dled some of the newer map versions that you get alot more free buildings than before so maybe it's possible to build dragons week 1 most of the time now.
As for randoms- it depends alot on the map, sometimes you get the chance for alot of conservatories, or wyvern nests, sometimes now. It doesn't affect castle builds though usually. Those creatures free anyway so it doesn't matter talking about capitol fast or not. Dungeon and Tower are most cash strapped of towns, but that is normal playing them and you learn to deal with it without buying capitol soon usually.
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2002 11:54 PM |
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Ichon, that's a very good example, and I see where you are coming from. In this case, by going for L7 first, you get 3 extra L7s to recruit, plus some L5s. However, you are delaying your capitol by 5-7 days, so you are effectively paying an extra 10K-14K gold for those 3 extra L7 recruitments. If creatures are truly your bottleneck, this could be well worth it.
But most random maps I play (and I usually play randoms these days) have quite a few creature buildings on the map, usually at least 1 or more that is level 7. (Last weekend the medium random had four L7 Firebird nests, but that was unusual. Two is more typical.)
Also, there are often other creature buildings around that are worthwhile, some even more so than L7. For example, if I happen to find enough Vampire places, I would rather spend my entire pool of gold on Vampire Lords than on Ghost Dragons.
My experience is more like what the last poster wrote: my bottleneck is always money, so I usually go for capitol first unless I expect to confront my opponent before week 4. If that puts me behind on L7s, I can console myself that I have an extra 10K-14K worth of other creatures to make up for the difference.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 13, 2002 12:04 AM |
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huh
Gold the bottleneck on randoms? Maybe I've been lucky and hardly ever encountered those poor templates that people talk about, but I usually have abundunce of gold on all the randoms I've played. Not even taking into account chests and random treasures or loose resources that you can sell in market, there are all the naga banks, cyclops caves medusa and dwarve halls... never had a problem getting gold without capitol in week 2. Like you said that is only about 15,000 gold and that isn't very much. 3-4 dwarven halls or couple hundred free resources sold in market
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted June 13, 2002 12:04 AM |
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"Creatures will get you through times of no gold better than
gold will get you through times of no creatures."
Paraphrased from "The Fabulous Furry Freak Bros" 1968 
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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sos
Known Hero
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posted June 14, 2002 07:52 PM |
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I play 95% of my games on random L 160% with about 60% win rate and I can say this. If I can I almost always prefer to build the cap day 8 or 9. I will have some less troops week 2, but I can build usually all unupgraded dwellings. Also, my oponnent may have more creatures in garison, but no money to buy them anyway. Besides I will have castle week 1 and it can be defended with very few troops against human or AI in week 1 or 2.
If I see that cap will be impossible early at a minimum I try to get city hall week 1. It depends on the map I play and the town, but in general I prefer to get my economy going ASAP. If I get level 1 and 2 prebuilt I may go city hall + castle week 1 and capitol next. If not level 2 I build one creature + city + citadel. Sometimes you lack resources and even if you want you cant build creatures - like missing crystals for pegasi or gems for magi, etc. Then there is no choice really.
My point is that depending on map, difficulty, town, etc. going for gold may be better
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 27, 2004 03:53 PM |
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Revived.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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supergub
Hired Hero
Abridged series fan
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posted November 04, 2009 03:23 AM |
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Edited by supergub at 03:32, 04 Nov 2009.
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To all of you who go for high level creatures first.
Now, I've seen a couple of people that go for the Capitol first. You all can skip this post. Now, on to the rest of you.
The longer you delay your Capitol, the more you're costing yourself. Always go for the Capitol first. Unless there are like 5 or 6 gold mines VERY close to your capitol. Even if you have lots of chests around, if you take all the gold from the chests, you're depriving your hero of precious experience. I've seen battles where either a measly 2-3 power/knowledge or attack/defense or 4-6 of any one of those wins the battle. Just a few extra points of damage dealt or prevented, or a little more mana or longer lasting spells can win a battle. However, you do need to get out there relatively quickly so that you can take advantage of all of those. Also, when you take the gold, it's only because you built up your creatures instead of your economy. I've been able to get ARCHangels by month 2 or 3(usually mid-month 2) and STILL recruit EVERYTHING in one day from my castle. So in the long run, 1 week of creatures doesn't do much when your opponent winds up with 2 or 3 weeks worth of creatures that are sitting in your castle while you wait for your money. You're basically giving an economical opponent a 56,000 to 84,000 gold advantage if you hold off on your Capitol. Besides, you need the Castle for it anyway, so you HAVE to boost BASE creature growth on the path to 4k gold a day.
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HOMM3 is my favorite game, Castle is my favorite town,
Rion is my favorite hero, Marksman is my favorite unit, Haste is my favorite spell.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 04, 2009 02:46 PM |
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I like it if people have their own opinion about specific things.
But I hardly have read anything similar untrue refering to H3 than your post....sorry.
With the way you play, you will for sure lose 51 out of 50 games vs every average H3 player.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 04, 2009 05:49 PM |
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I never played true online game only hotseat / lan games.
Going for capitol first is tempting ang working strategy for badly playing players. It gives them time not fight for more gold and resources and still get their lvl 7. Going for creatures instead of gold makes them loose in harder battle (if they try) and set back for week or more.
On the other hand if you can take full crypt day 1 or 2, if you know how to fight for griphon conservatory...
Then you know that going for creatures is better option, because you can get more gold each day compared to capitol builder.
Economist (capitol builder)
week 1: (20000g at begining)
day 1, builds town hall (2500g) ussually 1-3 more heroes, light fights, loose resources total worth about 1500 gold (depends on map but he he probably take exp from chest)
total income 2000g total expenses 7500g (-5000g)
2,3,4,5: 1000g income, builds marketplace (500g), mage guild(2000g), blacksmith(1000g), city hall(5000g), he explores more and gets more very light guarded or unguarded resources (4000g - I'm very generous as he takes xp from chests)
total income 4000g+4000g=8000g. Total investments: 8500g(buildings) (-500g)
day 6,7: 2000g income each day, builds citadel(2500g), castle(5000g) Heroes probably have nothing to fight for, because unguarded resources are allready taken and other fights are just to hard for his heroes. He can try Solmir, or other caster mage guild mana refill and something harder so give him another 1500g (chests are for xp right)
total income is: 4000g+1500g=5500g. Total investments are 7500g (-2000g)
From 20 000g at start he now have about 12 500g, 2 heroes and lvl 1,2 creatures. He is quite happy, because next week he finaly gets capitol and he have enough money to build it.
now warlord (creature builder):
He does not go for city hall so town hall income income is 7x500g=3500g
day 1: he bought 5-8 heroes, let's say 6(15000g), orc tower(1000g), orcs (1050g); but with so many heroes, chaining and combined army he takes allmost all unguarded resouces together with easy guarded ones, few chests with gold and maybe even 1 crypt. Total sum: 7000g (resources - economist whole week work), 6000g from 4 chests, 1000g from 1 crypt (it was easy one),
total expenses: 17050g total income: 12000g (-5050g) so he sits at 14050g
day 2: he builds cliff nest (2500g), buy all rocs(1800g), 2 more heroes(5000g)
He is now able to do harder fights against shooters, and harder crypts.
So he takes another 6000g from chests and guarded resources, and 1-2 crypts 4000g together
total expenses: 9300g total income: 500g+10000g=10500g (+1200g)
total gold: 15250g
day 3: behemoth lair (10000g), 1 behemoth (1500g)
He is now able to fight medium blocks guarding path to second town and richer area or to fight for higher dwelings, full crypts, griphon conservatories, .... To sum it up he will get about another 8000-12000g together (let it be 10k). He has explored all unblocked parts of the map and have clear image what he can do in next 4 days.
total expenses: 11500g, total income 10000g (-1500g)
total gold: 14750g
day 4-7: he explores new area takes more unguarded resources, chests, another town, medium artefacts,.... his strength rises exponentialy and his account balance is growing. He probably does not need to buy any new creatures, because he allready have some angels/wyvern monarchs from conservatories.
What he really gets cann't be acounted but even if he get's 0g he have more compared to economist and his exploration and fights give him enough to buy all creatures and town buildings.
Try to guess who allready won this game if they are fightning each other.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted November 04, 2009 06:24 PM |
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there are no crypts on rough (stronghold native ground)...but its a good argument..
creatures vs capitol..there has always been this debate..people come from playing single player/lan with some ideas, then go online for a few games and get different ideas ...or they just stick to what they are doing and go back to single player 
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted November 04, 2009 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
I never played true online game only hotseat / lan games.
...
Economist (capitol builder)
...
total income is: 4000g+1500g=5500g. Total investments are 7500g (-2000g)
...
From 20 000g at start he now have about 12 500g, 2 heroes and lvl 1,2 creatures. He is quite happy, because next week he finaly gets capitol and he have enough money to build it.
now warlord (creature builder):
He does not go for city hall so town hall income income is 7x500g=3500g
...
day 3: behemoth lair (10000g), 1 behemoth (1500g)
He is now able to fight medium blocks guarding path to second town and richer area or to fight for higher dwelings, full crypts, griphon conservatories, .... To sum it up he will get about another 8000-12000g together (let it be 10k). He has explored all unblocked parts of the map and have clear image what he can do in next 4 days.
total expenses: 11500g, total income 10000g (-1500g)
total gold: 14750g
day 4-7: he explores new area takes more unguarded resources, chests, another town, medium artefacts,.... his strength rises exponentialy and his account balance is growing. He probably does not need to buy any new creatures, because he allready have some angels/wyvern monarchs from conservatories.
...
Try to guess who allready won this game if they are fighting each other.
First, I would like to thank Matkov for his detailed analysis! It is this kind of analysis which really proves the point.
1. The first point I draw from this is that the strategy you take MUST be based on the map you play.
I believe a lot of the reason for this debate of early Capitol verses early army has a lot to do with the settings for the maps you are playing.
1A. If you play on a smaller map, you need to get an army fast, because your opponent can be at your castle in less than 2 weeks, which does not give a capitol strategy time to pay off.
1B. If you play will weaker neutral stacks, an early army can give a faster resources payoff.
1C. If your map has some higher level creature buildings, you will have far more recruits than you can afford to buy, so money will be the bottleneck in the long run. In this case, just because a player starts to build his army sooner, it does not follow that he will have the larger army at 4 weeks, because his army size will be money-limited, rather than creature supply limited.
1D. If you play on a larger map, with strong neutral stacks, you will need time to build a strong army before you take out the neutrals. In this case, the earlier you build your capitol, the more money you will have to ultimately build your army.
1E. Every day you delay getting your Capitol costs you 2000 gold. Unless you are getting at least this much value from the army strategy, then the capitol strategy is better.
2. It does NOT follow that the early Capitol people are also those who take chests for experience.
With rare exceptions, ALL of my early chests are taken for gold, whether I am going for an early Capitol or eary army. Only my later chests are taken for experience.
The reason for this is quite simple. The value of the early gold is exponential. If I can use it for an early build, I can either get my gold or creature production higher sooner, or get my army built up sooner. Either way, this early gold gives a big advantage. Later on, after I get my capitol built, the gold makes less of a difference and I can consider taking some chests for experience.
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