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| Thread: Sorry but Newbie Topic: |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 04, 2009 09:21 PM |
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The strategy is NOT based on the map you play.
You go for creatures in ANY kind of map. No matter if Small without underground or XL + underground.
The one who has more creatures and the better hero earlier will win the game in 99% of all cases.
What you call "weak guards"?
What would be "strong guards" in your eyes?
Quote:
1C. If your map has some higher level creature buildings, you will have far more recruits than you can afford to buy, so money will be the bottleneck in the long run. In this case, just because a player starts to build his army sooner, it does not follow that he will have the larger army at 4 weeks, because his army size will be money-limited, rather than creature supply limited.
This is the most common fault made by single players/offline players.
You do NOT need to buy ALL your troops in week 2 or week 3 to be able to make tough fights. You use 1 or 2 level 7 units...several strong flyers (level 5, level 6), and of course you use your hero! If your fights early, he will gain levels early...he will get expert earth/air much earlier.
Just try it...and you will see...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted November 04, 2009 09:42 PM |
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Quote:
What you call "weak guards"?
What would be "strong guards" in your eyes?
The strength of the neutral stacks is one of the options that is set when building the map. This is an extremely important factor in any map. If you always play with weak neutrals, then it is no wonder that you do not think that any other strategy makes sense. With strong neutrals, there is often very little that you can defeat the first week, even if you max out your army.
I play plenty of online games, and rarely ever lose, because I tailor my strategy to the map.
My typical strategy is more of a mixed strategy. Except on the most gold-poor settings, I recruit a second hero immediately, combine the forces, buy whatever range strikers I can, and explore, taking out the neutral stacks that I can with range strikers protected by single low level units, resulting in minimal casualties, usually at most a couple of low level units.
Even with strong neutrals, the slower stacks can often be defeated by range strikers, who can get off a few shots before the slow defenders can close. And even after closing, because I protect the range strikers with 6 stacks of single low level creatures, the defenders have to peel away these protective stacks before reaching the range strikers. Large stacks of slow creatures like zombies and dwarves can be easily defeated in this manner; I leave the faster stacks of strong neutrals until later, when my army is bigger.
When I find creature dwellings, I almost always spare the gold to buy these creatures right away, especially since they usually match my castle creatures.
My group of friends usually play with strong neutrals, which prevents an army with just a couple of level 7 creatures from wiping out the neutrals with no casualties. This also has the effect of providing a lot more experience from neutral battles once you are strong enough to take them out.
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supergub
Hired Hero
Abridged series fan
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posted November 05, 2009 02:45 AM |
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Wow...didn't know that my post would incite a flame war...
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HOMM3 is my favorite game, Castle is my favorite town,
Rion is my favorite hero, Marksman is my favorite unit, Haste is my favorite spell.
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 07:25 AM |
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I don't call it flame war. This is just discussion, because everyone here is polite so far. I think I will start thread:
Capitol, vs creatures analysis. To discuss this belowed topic  . I just need to put it together.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 08:01 AM |
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I wouldn't advise starting a thread on capital vs creatures. It's been argued into the ground and it will just piss people off.
If someone thinks they need to build capital right away, then they are doing something wrong. Instead of arguing that capital should be first, maybe they should find out what they are doing wrong.
My guess is that they just haven't learned how to fight yet. In other words, with the army they start with, they should be able to do enough fights to get money from the map. Depending on the map, it's true that you can't always buy all of your creatures right away. But you should have enough to get started. Your starting hero plus the army from 2 tavern heroes plus the starting troops from town is a decent size army for day one.
If you start on 200% or it's a very poor map, it will be a slow start. It's the same basic strategy, but it's just delayed a little.
Again, people who think that capital first is the best way should be finding out what else they are doing wrong instead of arguing about capital. Maybe post pics, size of army, size of guards, dwellings, etc. Basically they need to improve their gameplay.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted November 05, 2009 09:21 AM |
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those who would like to build Capitol first - come to Moscow and we will play hot seat or LAN game for real money Bets are $5000 per game.
P.S. Angelito, I would advise to move all noob posts from other threads into this one This thread has the right name for stupid strategies
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I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 10:31 AM |
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Edited by matkov at 10:31, 05 Nov 2009.
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@ Binabik
I know that this topic has been discussed a lot of times. But never in depth I wanted to show. Saying that someone else is wrong isn't just enough even when you are right. I wanted to pull out numbers to prove 1 strategy over another one.
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 04:40 PM |
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One thing I have brought up repeatedly and no one has even acknowledged is the effect of STRONG NEUTRALS on strategy. Is this because you never play with strong neutrals, or you have never paid attention to that part of the map construction?
My contention is that the map, particularly the starting resources, the size of the map, and strong neutrals, have a large effect on the best initial strategy.
I agree with the approach of generating some real maps. Then one can simply play the map twice, once going for creatures, and the second time holding back money to get the capital sooner. We can post some situations for people to play and critique, in case someone says "you did not play the creature approach very well", or "you did not play the capitol approach the way I would", so that way people could play it themselves, and post their results.
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jontahontas
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 05:20 PM |
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Quote:
One thing I have brought up repeatedly and no one has even acknowledged is the effect of STRONG NEUTRALS on strategy. Is this because you never play with strong neutrals, or you have never paid attention to that part of the map construction?
My contention is that the map, particularly the starting resources, the size of the map, and strong neutrals, have a large effect on the best initial strategy.
I agree with the approach of generating some real maps. Then one can simply play the map twice, once going for creatures, and the second time holding back money to get the capital sooner. We can post some situations for people to play and critique, in case someone says "you did not play the creature approach very well", or "you did not play the capitol approach the way I would", so that way people could play it themselves, and post their results.
Im gonna join in here in this eternal battle. Mainly because I´ve just started playing online since a couple of months and been playing offline since Heroes III first came and I think I see where you´re coming from. I got murdered my first online game, mainly because I didnt chain good enough and got 2nd place in Utopia Races - which came down to the basis that I didnt clean the map fast enough. Im not as skilled as maretti and those guys, and therefore I often have problems keeping my economy going since I dont build capitol and city hall and not being good enough to clear full Naga Banks and so on first week. Therefore I sometimes think that "just maybe should I go for Capitol in this situation?". A BIG misstake.
To answer your question I think the reason people go for creatures and not Capitol is because most players BEATS the strong neutrals they need to beat to get recourses with 3 rocks, 1 behemoth, 50 goblins, 15-20 wolf riders and some orchs, in the example of being barbarian. Its about skill. Lots of lvl 4,5 and even lvl 6 units are beatable first week.
Also, you can clear some of the Dwarfen Treasuries and Naga Banks, all the crypts and possibly even some griffin conservatories with first week army, thus securing your economy. With first day army you can only clear crypts. If there are creature dwellings on the map you can also take them easily with first week army. ALL of this is impossible with first DAY army that you will have if you race for capitol. Regardless of how poor you are in the beginning - buying creatures will ALWAYS allow you to win harder battles against the map and therefore to faster expanding. ALWAYS.
Like someone else said, I think capitol players developed their tactic because they where unable to beat the map, which is a question of skill. And instead of improving their skill they argue until their death about capitol being better because that wont force them to improve their gameplay. It´s all about being tentative in your opinions and adjust to the situation.
And as last I would like to add that personally I would gladly see you showing an example of a map you played, how it looked etc, where you think that Capitol is the better choice to go with. Because I´m new to online gaming and I would gladly improve my game, and since you have a different approach I would like to see what I can learn from you!
/jonatan
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mmontgomery
Hired Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 08:48 PM |
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Quote:
My contention is that the map, particularly the starting resources ... affects the best strategy ...
What starting resources do you typically have? My group normally starts at King level, so we start with practically nothing.
There is a big difference between starting with 20,000 or 50,000 gold, and starting with zero gold, on the relative importance of increasing gold production.
With low gold, I build my city hall before recruiting a second hero, unless I have a +350 gold hero offered. With high gold, I get my second and third hero on the first day. This also affects the castle building order, since if I have high gold, I can safely delay increasing gold production.
So could someone tell me what starting resources that they typically use?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 06, 2009 09:04 PM |
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When playing online for tournaments, you normally play 130%.
When playing single player vs computer, you play nothing but 200%, no matter what size the map has.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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puddles123
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 07, 2009 06:43 AM |
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Hey guys,
I'm a newbie as well, and I was going to make a new post about this, but the overseer dictates that I must make more replies before I can make a new post (strange requirement), so I post my noob question here.
How do you guys defend in this game? I started playing this after years of hiatus, on a map with subterranean and water, large map, 4 comps and me, normal difficulty. After I was built up with two cities, as I tried to expand I found myself completely unable to hold my ground effectively as I did. I kept having to recall my most powerful hero and his army to come back and recapture one of my cities or kill off some enemy hero nearby. It seems to me that there is no way to remain secure in this game. I considered trying to plug entrances into my realm, but quickly came to the conclusion that this was impossible.
I was exposed to the sea from multiple sides, I had three entrances from the subterranean lands, and I had nowhere near enough forces at hand to watch the caves, watch the shores, garrison my cities, and take the fight to the enemy at the same time. The only way I could guarantee my own security was to stock up the cities with a week's worth of troops of all levels and have my biggest hero on constant patrol with a big army. When I sought to leave and take the fight to the enemy, one or the other computers (not allied, mind you) would swing by from god knows where to punch a hole in one of my cities, forcing me to recall my offensive to keep an eye on things while I waited for the next week to come along with funds to restore its defenses.
So my question is, how do you guys manage to hold onto what you have while still taking the fight to the enemy? On a large map with just four other computers, I felt constantly harassed and unable to both defend my holdings and get ahead. I'm considering having my next map be no water and no subterranean areas to try and alleviate this, but I feel like I shouldn't have to do that...
So what do I do?
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fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
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posted November 07, 2009 05:34 PM |
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Dig holes along the shores and place heroes with sufficient army on all subteranian gates and two way monoliths
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And you believed that?
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 05:40 PM |
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Build mage guilds and find town portal.
Or don't play larger maps, i never liked them for that reason...hunting someone all over the map is boring in homm3.
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Lumske_Beaver
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 10:04 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
My contention is that the map, particularly the starting resources ... affects the best strategy ...
What starting resources do you typically have? My group normally starts at King level, so we start with practically nothing.
There is a big difference between starting with 20,000 or 50,000 gold, and starting with zero gold, on the relative importance of increasing gold production.
With low gold, I build my city hall before recruiting a second hero, unless I have a +350 gold hero offered. With high gold, I get my second and third hero on the first day. This also affects the castle building order, since if I have high gold, I can safely delay increasing gold production.
To go for capitol before creatures doesn't necessarily ensure that you have more money. Just To get capitol you have to use a lot of money (town hall 2500, city hall 5000, capitol 10000, blacksmith 1000, and you need a lot of time to do this also. Accordingly you have to spend 18500 gold, which you don't have to spend in the start if you are going for creatures (of course you buy capitol at some time; this is just to simplify).
Just to take an economical view on both strategies, I make a simpel and general comparison becaue it is not possible to take all the different ways of building into consideration: Lets say we have to people. One rush for capitol and the other goes for creatures (does not build any money building)
The fastest possible time to have capitol is day 1 week 2. Day 7 week 3 his earnings would be like this: 4*1000 (town hall)+3*2000+13*4000 -18500=43500 (if you include marked, mage guild and castle it will be 33500, but these are obviuos for both capitol and creature strategy)
The other persons earnings would be: 20*5000=10000+ money from map - creature dwellings.
My claim is that in almost all cases it is possible to gather 33500+ creature dwellings cost in three weeks by clearing the map and get new towns (possibility for double building which you will probably not get if you go for capitol since your army is too weak. Also you would normally build money buildings in the end of week 2 and through week 3 which I haven't taken into consideration in my comparison.
Of course you can also gather ressources and gold if you are going for capitol, but not to the same extent as if you build creature dwellings first.
Additionally when you build money buildings you only have a little money while you have surplus money some weeks later. In other words you have a lack of money when you need them and a lot of money when you do not need them. If you are building creatures first you will spend your money gradually ensuring that you don't have surplus money.
When the main fight occurs, the amount of money means nothing, but the amount of creatures means a lot.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 07, 2009 10:19 PM |
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It is interesting to see that an unique style playing leads to an unique economic behavior. I don't see how is wrong to build money first if no rules. Sometimes you don't need more creatures to dispatch your opponent but more gold. Depends greatly how early you will meet his main or scouts, how rich is map in utopias/pandoras, how fast you can develop secondary magic heros, which fast destructive spells you get. 4000 gold/turn on second week if meet him and have lightning on all scouts is not that bad.
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Era II mods and utilities
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 08, 2009 08:00 AM |
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Lol...
So your scouts destroy him with 1 lightning spell?
They all have dragon flies and +2 speed arties so they have a chance to cast at all?
Come on Salamandre...the only way you can win week 2 vs human players when going for money instead of creatures if you play against Dungeon, 200% and opponent didn't have the chance to find any resources to build beholders early enough.
The only way to win with economics at all is diplomacy. But to be able to get some joiners, you need to have a little strength in your army too, so you need creatures.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 08, 2009 09:32 AM |
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I understand it seems laughable to those who never tried it. But I saw hundred of games where game finished second week because of 4-7 scouts with 200+ lightning and a good economy. Hit and run can be decisive if on the other side we don't expect it. Do the maths about a good lightning casted 2-3 times at 200+ X 4-5 heros coming again and again.
Why do you think they are afraid of H&R if not this?
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Era II mods and utilities
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fank0
Known Hero
There are no limits
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posted November 08, 2009 01:27 PM |
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And how exactly do you train 4 (not to speak of 7) spellcasters on week 1 ? How do you supply lightning bolt to all of them ? What troops do you give them to make them able to cast in battle ?
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And you believed that?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 08, 2009 01:48 PM |
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The spellcasters go to level 8 by killing 15-20 enemy scouts if you chain well.
I can't explain what is Open Heroes if you asking me this. Now it is obsolete. Open medium maps, 10 towns, 25-30 dead scouts on first week from both sides, no way to go past level 8 with main if the other plays well, Tazar/Crag means nothing and all is ruled by fast chaining and hit there were it hurts the earliest possible. Many maps played had red and blue towns at two-three turns one from other, and still map could go for 2 months. Templates changed that. Now you smoke your cigar for 2 weeks in game, softly and gentle
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Era II mods and utilities
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