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| Thread: Engineer |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2001 05:45 PM |
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The thing you have to realize is that heroes is as much of an adventure/RPG game as it is a strategy game. Impassible barriers are used to create storyline (you can't confront your uncle about your family secret until you've learned the secret from somewhere else), to create RPG elements (you can't get to the treasure without slaying the dragons that guard the pass), and to create map balance. No other game has these elements, so you can't use them to compare to heroes. Without impassible barriers it would be impossible to make a good map, because you could have no control over the storyline, and people would say trigger event #5 before event#1.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 16, 2001 02:28 PM |
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I say keep HOMM pure. If you want Engineers go play Civ2.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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buffon_ice
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 17, 2001 04:51 PM |
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Engenears!?
I think that dwarfs are the best engenears ever!!!!
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Smiley
Adventuring Hero
King of All Smileys
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posted August 17, 2001 05:18 PM |
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I agree with Coldfyrius that if u want engineers u should go play Civ 2. it gives u a much more good prospective to wat engineers really are.
i think it is a BIG NO and really spoil the game.
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David
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 18, 2001 02:15 AM |
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Adventure Games & Strategy Games
Quote:
The thing you have to realize is that heroes is as much of an adventure/RPG game as it is a strategy game. Impassible barriers are used to create storyline (you can't confront your uncle about your family secret until you've learned the secret from somewhere else), to create RPG elements (you can't get to the treasure without slaying the dragons that guard the pass), and to create map balance. No other game has these elements, so you can't use them to compare to heroes. Without impassible barriers it would be impossible to make a good map, because you could have no control over the storyline, and people would say trigger event #5 before event#1.
First, not in all adventure games you have to trigger event#1 before event#5... Only in a movie happens that. In a game there's something called free-form: events are linked each other, but not necessarily in an specified order. Storylines in games must be more flexible, if not you go back to a plain movie.
Second, there's no adventure game if you can't control the character's play. In HOMM you control the whole game, but you don't have to go through a dungeon solving a puzzle... quests are just more than an strategic add: "go and bring me the rod of mighty and i will reward you with an ivory dragon". You go with your army, you kill the guardians of the treasure and come back to get the prize. If you were able to play, then will be more things to solve than just kill the guardians: find out the map which is hidden inside a mausoleum (inside it you have to solve a puzzle to open the door where the map is it and keep yourself away from the traps and the undead), if your party does not have a scribe then go to the town and seek for the cartographer to translate it and then you can go following the map. Neither of that it's inside HOMM. HOMM is just an fantasy-based strategy which simulates a war between different lords in an imaginary world with it's own rules. You seek to be the best lord. It could only be my military conquest or be accomplishing some other goal (like building the grail structur) for wish is still necessary to fight.
Third, as a fantasy-based strategy war simulation, HOMM should allow the player to pass through terrain unless it's magically blocked. There's no other explanation using fantasy logic.
That's all.
More opinions?
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 18, 2001 04:35 AM |
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"First, not in all adventure games you have to trigger event#1 before event#5... Only in a movie happens that."
Actualy in every adventure game, movie, book, or good story there has to be some kind of order of events. You can't confront your father about the evil family secret unless you've already learned that secret. You can't defeat the evil prince who rose to power after the defeat of the king until you first defeat the king.
" In a game there's something called free-form: events are linked each other, but not necessarily in an specified order. Storylines in games must be more flexible, if not you go back to a plain movie. "
A freeform storyline where there is no cause and effect, no timeline, and no dramatic build to a climax is not much of a story.
"Second, there's no adventure game if you can't control the character's play. In HOMM you control the whole game, but you don't have to go through a dungeon solving a puzzle... quests are just more than an strategic add: "go and bring me the rod of mighty and i will reward you with an ivory dragon". You go with your army, you kill the guardians of the treasure and come back to get the prize."
You obviously haven't played any good heroes maps before that really do have much more of a storyline then this. There are some excellent maps with some truly amazing storylines, which would be impossible without the use of impassible terrain.
" If you were able to play, then will be more things to solve than just kill the guardians: find out the map which is hidden inside a mausoleum (inside it you have to solve a puzzle to open the door where the map is it and keep yourself away from the traps and the undead), if your party does not have a scribe then go to the town and seek for the cartographer to translate it and then you can go following the map. Neither of that it's inside HOMM."
Nothing you have mentioned cannot be done in Heroes. You can have a bunch of guards standing outside a underground entrance (the masoleum), and when you defeat them you explore the underground dungeon and find the map which allows you pass the quest gate in order to see the scribe and continue the plot. If you don't know this, you really need to play some better maps.
" HOMM is just an fantasy-based strategy which simulates a war between different lords in an imaginary world with it's own rules. You seek to be the best lord. It could only be my military conquest or be accomplishing some other goal (like building the grail structur) for wish is still necessary to fight. "
Heroes is much more then just a strategy game. There are major RPG elements, and this is what makes it so succesful.
"Third, as a fantasy-based strategy war simulation, HOMM should allow the player to pass through terrain unless it's magically blocked. There's no other explanation using fantasy logic.
"
Heroes is in no way a "war simulation", it's way more abstract then that.
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David
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 22, 2001 04:11 AM |
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Adventure vs Strategy
Well maybe HOMM has some fantasy adventure game elements. You can create a map to fit the mausoleum, but not a puzzle... no hidden doors, no illusionary walls, no people to talk and interact with.
You can have all the mythologic creatures in your army or fight them... but you can't interact with them.
If you ever have played a real RPG game (not a computer-like) you'll know that interaction and character's play is the most important part. You can modify the world as far as your influence can, therefore forcing the storyteller (or dungeonmaster) to adjust the storylines to fit the new and everchanging conditions. Of course character won't go to a quest if they have a motivation... If the storyline is well created according to each character motivation it will "natural flow"... instead of "forced flow".
Comparing HOMM with a fantasy computer game is like to compare a real fantasy RPG game with Magic: the Gathering card game. Magic has fantasy RPG elements... but you don't play as the wizard... you play as if it were a special chess.
I agree with you that maybe i haven't seen good maps. But maybe there are not too many good maps to be found.
You don't play HOMM as adventure computer game, even if i ever agree with you is it, you play it as an strategy games were well timed decisions in order to conquer your opponents (as most of the games are played) and not to go into the tavern and talk to the bartender asking a beer while looking at the strange hooded guys which have just came in.
In adventure you control characters. In strategy you control decisions. Maybe they could intersect, just like microeconomics and macroeconomics, but nothing more than that... there's no union posible.
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David
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 22, 2001 04:13 AM |
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Adventure vs Strategy
Well maybe HOMM has some fantasy adventure game elements. You can create a map to fit the mausoleum, but not a puzzle... no hidden doors, no illusionary walls, no people to talk and interact with.
You can have all the mythologic creatures in your army or fight them... but you can't interact with them.
If you ever have played a real RPG game (not a computer-like) you'll know that interaction and character's play is the most important part. You can modify the world as far as your influence can, therefore forcing the storyteller (or dungeonmaster) to adjust the storylines to fit the new and everchanging conditions. Of course character won't go to a quest if they have a motivation... If the storyline is well created according to each character motivation it will "natural flow"... instead of "forced flow".
Comparing HOMM with a fantasy computer game is like to compare a real fantasy RPG game with Magic: the Gathering card game. Magic has fantasy RPG elements... but you don't play as the wizard... you play as if it were a special chess.
I agree with you that maybe i haven't seen good maps. But maybe there are not too many good maps to be found.
You don't play HOMM as adventure computer game, even if i ever agree with you is it, you play it as an strategy games were well timed decisions in order to conquer your opponents (as most of the games are played) and not to go into the tavern and talk to the bartender asking a beer while looking at the strange hooded guys which have just came in.
In adventure you control characters. In strategy you control decisions. Maybe they could intersect, just like microeconomics and macroeconomics, but nothing more than that... there's no union posible.
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Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
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posted August 22, 2001 05:24 AM |
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dont worry about changes....
dont worry about rather or not they will put engineers in h4... cuz they wont. from the tons of screenshots and previews ive seen of h4 its looking like the only thing not done is the fine touches and the scenarios and campaigns...
so theyre not going to add engineers now...
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 22, 2001 06:01 AM |
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"Well maybe HOMM has some fantasy adventure game elements. You can create a map to fit the mausoleum, but not a puzzle... no hidden doors, no illusionary walls, no people to talk and interact with. "
It's true you can't do hidden doors and illusionary walls, but you can create puzzles through the use of different pathways and boxes to choose from, and people can talk to you in the form of events. H4 should allow for even more of this.
"You can have all the mythologic creatures in your army or fight them... but you can't interact with them. "
Quite a few of the better maps have you interact with the monsters before they join you, or before you fight them as part of the story.
"If you ever have played a real RPG game (not a computer-like) you'll know that interaction and character's play is the most important part. You can modify the world as far as your influence can, therefore forcing the storyteller (or dungeonmaster) to adjust the storylines to fit the new and everchanging conditions. Of course character won't go to a quest if they have a motivation... If the storyline is well created according to each character motivation it will "natural flow"... instead of "forced flow". "
This is true, however we are discussing computer games instead of pen and paper games. So this is a moot point.
"Comparing HOMM with a fantasy computer game is like to compare a real fantasy RPG game with Magic: the Gathering card game. Magic has fantasy RPG elements... but you don't play as the wizard... you play as if it were a special chess. "
Yeah but HoMM maps have can have many more RPG elements where you really do play as a character and have a dynamic story that goes along.
"I agree with you that maybe i haven't seen good maps. But maybe there are not too many good maps to be found. "
There are quite a few good maps to be found if you check the astral wizard website. Even H3 expansions had alot of maps. Think how much the dragon slayer scenarios would have been ruined for example if you could just pass through any terrain you wanted. You should really go download some real h3 maps, before you try commenting on this. No offence, but I'm really getting the feeling that you don't know what your talking about here.
"You don't play HOMM as adventure computer game, even if i ever agree with you is it, you play it as an strategy games were well timed decisions in order to conquer your opponents (as most of the games are played) and not to go into the tavern and talk to the bartender asking a beer while looking at the strange hooded guys which have just came in. "
Ah, but in some maps you do have to go into a tavern and talk to the stranged hooded guy to get a quest in order to proceed to the next area. Like I said, you obviously need to play some real maps before you comment on these things.
"In adventure you control characters. In strategy you control decisions. Maybe they could intersect, just like microeconomics and macroeconomics, but nothing more than that... there's no union posible. "
There is in fact quite a bit of union possible, and heroes proves that. Just look at it's fan base, you get people who hate strategy and love RPGs, and people who hate RPGs and love strategy. If you alienate the RPG fans you will lose half of the customers.
In conclusion, you seriously need to play some more maps of Heroes before you talk about these things. Then you will be in a better position to discuss things.
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David
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 24, 2001 03:55 AM |
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Thank you
Quote:
Yeah but HoMM maps have can have many more RPG elements where you really do play as a character and have a dynamic story that goes along.
Yes, you're right... of course i haven't play many "adventure-like" maps for HOMM.
I'm part of the intersection who loves both strategy and adventure... But maybe i'm a purist. That's why i'm not able to see your point.
I can see every element you show to me... except this last one: "play as a character and have a dynamic story that goes along".
Even if you can really do that in an scenario... it's too simple. Interaction is more than: "Monsters are fleeing... do you wish to pursue them?" or "Monsters are willing to join your army... do you wish to allow them?". Not only yes or no... not only having or not the required artifact or army...
Please show me how you "play as a character" when it's a must of the game the army command. I'm sorry, but i don't actually have the game to test any new maps. I've played almost every map inside the game and i still can't remember any of them as "play as a character" but only as army commanding skill, even in Dragonslayer. You have your army, you have to choose which path to follow kill the monsters allowing most of your soldiers to survive to confront the dragon. Fight... there's always fight. "Play as a character" involves more than just fights. "Play as a character" is a much deeper concept to my concern.
I really enjoy playing HOMM or any strategy game to see if i can outcome my opponents by making the best decisions. I also really enjoy playing Eye of the Beholder or any adventure game to see if i can outsmart myself, if i can solve the puzzle, if i can pick up the key word from the phrase that the computer played character said to my character...
Maybe it's just i'm too blind to see it... sorry.
Maybe you can give me a stick... jajaja
I love debate anyway  It's been a very good time.
As soon as i recover the game i'll try any map you suggest me to see if i can see your facts
Have a nice game 
PS: Either it's strategy or adventure or a gentle mix...
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Bluegreen
Adventuring Hero
Master Of Swords
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posted August 24, 2001 08:16 AM |
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Btw in the map editor you can script events and things, so things like mountains and tree'va vanish when you do a certain thing. Such as capturing a town or something.
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Dragonhunter
Adventuring Hero
Anybody got a Band-aid
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posted August 26, 2001 02:32 AM |
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No Engineers for me thanks; but I think a Mountaineering skill wouldn't be a bad idea. Depending on the map you may not want to use this skill anyway but in some cases you may want to go with it.
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Gimmickless
Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
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posted August 27, 2001 01:38 AM |
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My take on tactics vs. plot...
I thought the object of any Heroes3 map was to conquer the map within certain parameters (killing all enemies, flagging all dwellings, finding the Grail/Artifact, etc.) and that everything else was just window dressing. Sure, developing complex storylines for a person to go through *like a book* adds a dimension to the gameplay, but it's still window dressing all the same. I thought the object of any map is to win, not to brag about how complex you can make your XL map by giving you a quest to go off and find the Blue Necklace of Seafaring in order to to get another quest to kill Xarfax, Pontifex of the Underworld so you can subdue the Woaden Dwarves who are threatening the town of Shangri-La by digging up the Grail sructure and taking it back to your hometown, but not realizing that doing so meant that you accidently freed 100 Black Dragons and so you have to kill them too.....
Am I making my point clear? I don't have the patience to wade through quest after quest after quest. If I wanted complex plots, I'd play Might and Magic. I thought *Heroes* of Might and Magic was a war game when you got down to the nit'n'gritty.
On the same side, I like the option of being able to destroy mountains and generally making a clear cut path to my enemy instead of wading through so I don't lose armies and be made slim pickings. I support the idea of an added skill, but not a character class.
But I guess I'm just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the complexities of a good plot in a war game. *dramatic sigh*
Flame away, boys and girls.
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Lyricist's Lounge Champion Wanna test your skills?
Johnny The Ball:... too long to display...
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 27, 2001 07:03 AM |
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"I can see every element you show to me... except this last one: "play as a character and have a dynamic story that goes along".
Even if you can really do that in an scenario... it's too simple. Interaction is more than: "Monsters are fleeing... do you wish to pursue them?" or "Monsters are willing to join your army... do you wish to allow them?". Not only yes or no... not only having or not the required artifact or army... "
Well you have to remember this is just a computer game. Interaction in any computer game is going to be limited. Often playing a map with a detailed plot in H3 is similar in alot of ways to reading a good book where you control things between the scenes. Still alot of people really enjoy that, and this is a large part of the audience. Alot of the choices you do have however are done by controling your movement through obstacles. And H4 should have much more ability to do this as well.
"Please show me how you "play as a character" when it's a must of the game the army command. I'm sorry, but i don't actually have the game to test any new maps. I've played almost every map inside the game and i still can't remember any of them as "play as a character" but only as army commanding skill, even in Dragonslayer. You have your army, you have to choose which path to follow kill the monsters allowing most of your soldiers to survive to confront the dragon."
Dragonslayer is a perfect example of my point. Imagine if you could destroy mountains, then you could just go around all the pesky fairy dragons and quest gates and complete all the scenarios without actually killing all the dragons like you are supposed to.
" I also really enjoy playing Eye of the Beholder or any adventure game to see if i can outsmart myself,"
Well really a good heroes map has at least as much roleplaying, story and decision making as eye of the beholder did. Granted that's not saying much.
"As soon as i recover the game i'll try any map you suggest me to see if i can see your facts "
The main problem is you've only played the maps that come with the CD, some of which are good but few have a storyline to them. If your get your CD back go check out the astralwizard website and read some reviews to find a good map. The maps there are usualy MUCH better then the ones you find on the CD.
Finally, I should point out to anyone who just says that they don't like the story and roleplaying parts, that this is fine. What you like and don't like it up to you. But at least half of the Heroes players play because of these things. So obviously they are not going to make any changes that will cut their sales in half. This is in fact why they are going to so much effort to create even more storylines in H4.
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Xirtam
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 27, 2001 09:55 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Wouldn't it be a little too powerful to be able to destroy mountains on the adventure map?
not really i mean whats the differece between this and Dimension door? sure its permanent but still you will have to have played for quite some time to get expert engineering and it would cost money eh. lots and lots of money +it would add ore just came to me
I think that dimension door sucked too and adding ore for destroying mountains would make it far too easy to get resourses as you could trade the extra ore for anything.
This said making roads and garasons may not bee too bad
Mabie they could be the only way to upgrade castle walls to make them more resistant to catapults
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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted August 28, 2001 03:25 PM |
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Engineers are not for HMM
I can't belive this is something that would be wanted or needed for HMM.
Maybe for some games this would be ok, but the Mountains usually serve to create closed area's of maps that you are not supposed to be able to reach. Why dont you just edit maps so you don't have to fight that certain creature for that art, or edit Dim door and Fly into maps that they have been removed from, viola, Instant Engineering.
This isnt even a closed or open map debate tho, (although this ability would nulify the use of a closed map. Some maps also put mountains near water area's so the access to water is limited to certain area's or to prevent use of water walking.
If a map is Linear by design, this ability would throw the Storyline off as said above, but even in non-linear maps the engineering ability would seriously ruin gameplay imho
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Winner or Whiner?
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Draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 02, 2001 06:53 AM |
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8-) HOLY CRAP
holy crap lots of people have started talkin on this thread now  !
i get the feeling that destroying mountains is a very unpopular idea and after readin messages i agree (wasnt thinking of custom maps) making roads and garrasins i dont see any problems with (other then it may make the map ugly if u put to many) speedy mine oppenings = good
LVL 6-7 building (whatever is max) only done with expert engineer = good
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Thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2001 08:32 AM |
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I dont get it when people try to change a game.There isnt enough games out there to make everyone happy?
If i want to play a game with dungeons,quests,interaction,.... i'll go play my Everquest chars or Asheron's call.But when i want to have fun for a couple of hours,i play HoMM.I dont say HoMM is perfect,there is surely many ways to improve the game,but you cant change the basics to much.If so many people keeps playing,they must like it the way it is.
I dont want to talk with "lots of gremlins" to see if i couldnt get them cheaper than 800gold.
As for engineers,i dont like the idea.There is always age of the empire if you want to cut trees and get ore from mountains.HoMM4 will include mining,estate and nobility.It will be good new skills.
When i play a map,my challenge is to beat it,not to change it.
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Rage
Adventuring Hero
Slipping Through the Trees
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posted September 02, 2001 12:03 PM |
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Just think...
For all of you Multiplay fans out there...
Just think about what effect modifying the map in game would be like.
Maps that have been played over and over may play out differently depending on your style of play.
Building walls, bridges, roads, portals, garrisons, lookout towers, and traps will add a new strategy to the game.
closed maps will definitely be less boring because you won't know what to expect in your enemy's territory.
You can play the defender and build up a series of walls, traps and garrisons to hinder the attacker or build portals, bridges and roads to hasten your way to the enemy and other revisitable places.
Obviously building times and resources would be the cost and of course balancing those costs (I'll let the Programmers take care of that) would be crucial.
These structures should be destroyable or flagable but then take time to dismantle (IE walls would end your turn when destroying them). But certain creatures like cyclops, peasants etc would help build/destruct times/costs.
Maybe It's too complicated and time consuming for some so How bout a toggle at starting menu for those who don't want to deal with this aspect.
BTW Definitely no mountain smashing. They are there for a reason and would take years to remove anyways.
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L8r
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