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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2014 09:55 PM |
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Earth is crucial for all races, demons included, and it has nothing to do with being blinded by its power. After all, blind is from fire magic 
One of the reasons for that is town portal. And even if it is banned, two first level spells, shield and slow, are amongst three most useful spells in final battle(the third being haste). Moreover, slow gives enormous advantage in clearing conservatories, much greater than haste or any fire magic spell.
Fire magic is sometimes useful, but it is far behind earth. Curse will not work well on most powerstacks(high tier units, demons, or skeletons), bloodlust is too weak compared to shield, blind works perfectly well without fire magic, frenzy gives your powerstack a huge "kill me" sign on the back and berserk can be easily prevented by badge of courage, or recanters cloak. Slayer is a joke. Sacrifice may sound nice, but when you play inferno you usually focus on demon farming and have little to none spare low level units...
And about wisdom, not all games last till you have level 20 hero. If you only have 12-15 levels, it is likely that you will not choose wisdom, because spells that a hero can learn by having it are just too little of advantage. Offence, armorer, tactics, earth, air, logistics are far superior to wisdom, especially if travel magic is banned.
Besides, you mentioned the game with 80 demons as if it was casual one. Maybe on Jebus it is(don't know if you played it then though), but on core templates it looks as quite good starting conditions.
To sum up, maybe revolut1oN was a bit rude, but most his points are quite valid.
PS. Expert shield in that tope would be better. You could hit greens, 3 would retaliate, then 6 reds hit demons and 3 greens hit demons. In your case 8 greens hit demons, then 1 does so. But 30% of shield reduction makes up for the difference(from 12 dragon damage to 8,4 dragon damage), and shield will also reduce damage from gold and black dragons in next rounds.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 27, 2014 11:03 PM |
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Kicferk said:
Earth is crucial for all races, demons included, and it has nothing to do with being blinded by its power. After all, blind is from fire magic
It is never crucial but it can be handy. But you gain more from it when you have a good ranged unit to cripple the enemy stacks. It works well vs the map but in the end fight earth magic aren't too good for the Inferno as you are forced to advance and thus haste will be better.
Kicferk said:
One of the reasons for that is town portal. And even if it is banned, two first level spells, shield and slow, are amongst three most useful spells in final battle(the third being haste). Moreover, slow gives enormous advantage in clearing conservatories, much greater than haste or any fire magic spell.
Town portal is handy if you play a non jebus/balance map and aim for a 4+ week game. However even in its simple form it can be used and let's not forget poor man's town portal.
Slow is like I mentioned, better when you draw the attacker towards you. Mass shield is certainly a great asset, no argument there.
Kicferk said:
Fire magic is sometimes useful, but it is far behind earth. Curse will not work well on most powerstacks(high tier units, demons, or skeletons), bloodlust is too weak compared to shield, blind works perfectly well without fire magic, frenzy gives your powerstack a huge "kill me" sign on the back and berserk can be easily prevented by badge of courage, or recanters cloak. Slayer is a joke. Sacrifice may sound nice, but when you play inferno you usually focus on demon farming and have little to none spare low level units...
Remember Kicferk, all magics are useful given the right situation.
Frenzy has its uses but it must be used with care. Blind is ofc not tied to fire, Bloodlust can be handy at some points but primarily vs the map. Berserk (if you're lucky to get it) will wreck the enemy unless he carries Orb, cloak or the BoC/PoD. Slayer only has use in the utopia. Armageddon is a nice thing to have up your sleeve if it spawns in your Magi Guild. Sacrifice however is in a league of its own. While it is true your units are converted to demons, you must remember the pit lords and Wyverns.
Kicferk said:
And about wisdom, not all games last till you have level 20 hero. If you only have 12-15 levels, it is likely that you will not choose wisdom, because spells that a hero can learn by having it are just too little of advantage. Offence, armorer, tactics, earth, air, logistics are far superior to wisdom, especially if travel magic is banned.
I rarely pick wisdom before I have Offence, Armorer and at least Air Magic/Tactics, like you said it is useless before you actually have the spells. Games vary ofc but that's the charm of this game, nothing is really 100% assumable.
Kicferk said:
Besides, you mentioned the game with 80 demons as if it was casual one. Maybe on Jebus it is(don't know if you played it then though), but on core templates it looks as quite good starting conditions.
It depends on Tavern hero luck, secondary towns and map losses. In that example of mine I lost not a single unit to the map. I tend to swap between Jebus and Balance templates.
Kicferk said:
To sum up, maybe revolut1oN was a bit rude, but most his points are quite valid.
PS. Expert shield in that tope would be better. You could hit greens, 3 would retaliate, then 6 reds hit demons and 3 greens hit demons. In your case 8 greens hit demons, then 1 does so. But 30% of shield reduction makes up for the difference(from 12 dragon damage to 8,4 dragon damage), and shield will also reduce damage from gold and black dragons in next rounds.
I don't think Revolution is "rude" but a bit tunnelvisioned (but I admit I can be at certain times aswell). His points are certainly valid. Earth is in most cases (when you allow artifacts) superior to the other magic schools. Since earth has some of the strongest lv 1 spells which are easy to come by. I enjoy going with Fire and Water to spice things up a bit and when I started to do this I noticed these magic schools aren't too much of a letdown in the end fight or vs the map either.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 01:34 AM |
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Ebonheart said:
Remember Kicferk, all magics are useful given the right situation.
Frenzy has its uses but it must be used with care. Blind is ofc not tied to fire, Bloodlust can be handy at some points but primarily vs the map. Berserk (if you're lucky to get it) will wreck the enemy unless he carries Orb, cloak or the BoC/PoD. Slayer only has use in the utopia. Armageddon is a nice thing to have up your sleeve if it spawns in your Magi Guild. Sacrifice however is in a league of its own. While it is true your units are converted to demons, you must remember the pit lords and Wyverns.
Sure they are, but some spells are useful more often than others. And spells from fire magic are useful less often than spells from earth magic, especially those that are easily accessible.
Armageddon is a bit like blind, it does not get a large boost from fire magic proficiency. And if you are sacrificing your pit lords and vyverns to resurrect your demons, then you are doing it wrong
Besides, building your mage guild to get anything useful is kinda expensive. Earth rules with just its lvl1 spells, while fire needs some luck and lvl4 spells to truly shine.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 10:08 AM |
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Kicferk said:
Sure they are, but some spells are useful more often than others. And spells from fire magic are useful less often than spells from earth magic, especially those that are easily accessible.
Armageddon is a bit like blind, it does not get a large boost from fire magic proficiency. And if you are sacrificing your pit lords and vyverns to resurrect your demons, then you are doing it wrong
Besides, building your mage guild to get anything useful is kinda expensive. Earth rules with just its lvl1 spells, while fire needs some luck and lvl4 spells to truly shine.
Earth is indeed more useful in more situations and fire will require some luck. But how much joy do you get when you know that earth will be the only way to go with a backup expert air magic for mass haste? You might aswell forfeit the entire match if you never get offered earth magic before w3 with that reasoning.
As for the sacrifice, what do you propose me to use? It can't be used on the efreet sultans. The Angels won't come in high enough numbers to provide a healthy resurrection. I highly doubt you would sacrifice the devils.
So what remains? Your Pit Lords, whom are likely to get sacrificed first and your Wyverns.
As for the last statement, you need to do the same with earth if you want your beloved town portal, resurrection, anti magic and implosion.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 10:36 AM |
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As for sacrifice, I suggest saving around 60-100 first level units, maybe even peasants. The reason for that is the formula for points resurrected, I think it goes like
number of sacrificed creatures * (sacrificed creature health + hero power + fire magic bonus).
That being said, low level units are much better, because they use up more hero and fire magic bonus. And if you plan on resurrecting 100 demons you only need around 100 familiars(or 150 peasants  ). That means additional 10-15 demons(max 25 if you are lucky with arts). But if you want to resurrect 100 demons from vyverns you need like 30 of them, much too much for me.
As for earth magic being offered, beastmasters and barbarians can only get 3 magic schools, so earth is pretty much granted
Besides, you said that you try to stay away from earth, which suggests you don't take it even if you are offered it, and that does not sound like a good strategy
And as for earth needing high level mage guild and luck - it needs them to reach its full potency, but with just lvl 1 spells it gets like 70-80% of its usability. And fire magic with just lvl 1 spells gets like 40-50%, at most. Which makes earth more reliable, because it is much easier and cheaper to build lvl 1 guild than to build lvl 4 one
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 11:13 AM |
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Kicferk said:
As for sacrifice, I suggest saving around 60-100 first level units, maybe even peasants. The reason for that is the formula for points resurrected, I think it goes like
number of sacrificed creatures * (sacrificed creature health + hero power + fire magic bonus).
That being said, low level units are much better, because they use up more hero and fire magic bonus. And if you plan on resurrecting 100 demons you only need around 100 familiars(or 150 peasants ). That means additional 10-15 demons(max 25 if you are lucky with arts). But if you want to resurrect 100 demons from vyverns you need like 30 of them, much too much for me.
As for earth magic being offered, beastmasters and barbarians can only get 3 magic schools, so earth is pretty much granted
Besides, you said that you try to stay away from earth, which suggests you don't take it even if you are offered it, and that does not sound like a good strategy
And as for earth needing high level mage guild and luck - it needs them to reach its full potency, but with just lvl 1 spells it gets like 70-80% of its usability. And fire magic with just lvl 1 spells gets like 40-50%, at most. Which makes earth more reliable, because it is much easier and cheaper to build lvl 1 guild than to build lvl 4 one
My we are keeping this a hot topic, I like it!
Peasants, but where would I get those? During all my Jebus and Balance games i've never seen a single peasant hovel.
But more on a serious note, you are correct about the lv 1 statement. I used to save 100 imps a few years back, but they had a tendancy to get destroyed early and it also crippled the demon stack.
Barbarians and Beastmasters have greater odds yes, but if you don't find one you might be in a quite compromising position.
I stay away from earth as I have come to rely little on it for the map and to make the overall game a bit different.
I already admitted that earth has better lv 1 spells but it is darn rigid and boring. When I picked fire magic or water over earth in many of my online games my opponent was caught completely off guard.
During the end battle some of them messed up badly for they had no idea how to combat something that was more out of the box.
However each player has his own strategy in the end and if you can clear the map without many or no losses, won't you agree that earth loses some of its value?
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 11:47 AM |
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It is not about your losses, but about speed. Taking a conservatory without big losses with fire requires week 3 army in most cases, while with earth you can do it week 2.
Ebonheart said:
However each player has his own strategy in the end and if you can clear the map without many or no losses, won't you agree that earth loses some of its value?
You can clear entire map with artillery instead of offence. But that does not make artillery more appealing, or offence less powerful.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 12:16 PM |
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Kicferk said:
It is not about your losses, but about speed. Taking a conservatory without big losses with fire requires week 3 army in most cases, while with earth you can do it week 2.
You can clear entire map with artillery instead of offence. But that does not make artillery more appealing, or offence less powerful.
Both losses and speed matters and the fact remains you might get expert earth very late or if you're very unlucky, never.
You can take conservatories week 2 even with fire magic (curse does wonders). But it depends on what town you play. Let's actually take the Inferno as an example. You got no ranged units to weaken the griffins so you're forced into hand-to-hand combat and due to their specialty you can't wait until their retaliations are gone. A slow will only cripple them down but they will still hit you hard. Thus losses.
As for the last sentance, it depends like so many other things on what town you play, what magics are at your disposal and what kind of hero you got.
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ulikekok
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 30, 2014 04:38 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 12:01, 01 Jul 2014.
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yawn...
multiple accounts not allowed on HC.
Silenced.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 01, 2014 12:04 PM |
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Thread cleaned.
Please do us a favor and don't react at all to such trolling posts. You feed the troll...he goes on trolling....and much more work for us (deleting posts...)
Thanks in advance...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 01, 2014 01:01 PM |
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angelito said:
Thread cleaned.
Please do us a favor and don't react at all to such trolling posts. You feed the troll...he goes on trolling....and much more work for us (deleting posts...)
Thanks in advance...
Alright Angelito, pardon the spam we made.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 03, 2014 11:44 PM |
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Does anyone knows when was "Poor man's Town Portal" invented and who did it?
I remember to use heroes with scholar to learn TP and then travel to where my "main" was to teach it, now most of the times I do the oposite: I rehire him where the spell I need is. But I learned the trick last year.
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looom
Adventuring Hero
Flying High
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posted July 18, 2014 01:26 PM |
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Can't point any fingers, I worked out the poor man's town portal for myself and I later saw that I wasn't the only one who thought of it. Really can't say.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted July 20, 2014 01:55 PM |
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Probably poor man tp was invented in 2000-2001. I think i saw it's description at russian forums that time
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I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 21, 2014 07:12 PM |
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PMT was probably invented shortly after the release. I think most players have used it on many occasions but never given it a proper tactical thought.
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DivineClio
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 07:19 PM |
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This trick is basically surrender/retire(with 1 stack) and rebuy him?
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Daemon481
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 23, 2014 03:41 PM |
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How to get easily diplomacy as secondary skill
Hi, Is there any tactic how to get diplomacy as secondary skill, excluding heroes (Adele/Cyra/Ryland). What primary and secondary skills improve chance to get diplomacy. Thank you very much for help.
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted July 23, 2014 03:55 PM |
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As far as I know secondary and primary ones do not directly affect chances of getting diplomacy.
The greatest chance to get this skill have clerics, and unless you are willing to use some external programs, hero type is the only factor affecting your chances.
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Daemon481
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 23, 2014 06:33 PM |
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kicferk said:
As far as I know secondary and primary ones do not directly affect chances of getting diplomacy.
The greatest chance to get this skill have clerics, and unless you are willing to use some external programs, hero type is the only factor affecting your chances.
What about hero Brissa from conflux ? Mate plays as a necromance Aishilnn and in 5 game get 4 times diplomacy.
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted July 23, 2014 08:08 PM |
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Edited by kicferk at 20:10, 23 Jul 2014.
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Well, there are two cases.
First of all, elementalists and necromancers have 4/112 chances to get diplomacy on every lvl-up, so it can happen if he waits long enough(not to mention universities, they seem to offer diplo pretty often).
Besides, there is a program predicting skill trees for heroes. I never used it, so I am not able to provide any link to it, but from what I know it can show you what skills you should choose to get what you want (diplo included), and you have to fill in some details, like primary skill received on lvl2. It is a bit like cheating though.
And finally, all this stuff is not so important, because of three heroes you mentioned. If you don't play with in-born diplomacy heroes, then I don't get why you play with diplomacy allowed at all, it differs quite little.
Of course, I assume you are playing on random maps and your friend is an honest kind of guy Meaning the possibility of him editing map or saves is excluded from my reasoning
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