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| Thread: Croatian general dead |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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WaY2HeLL
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posted April 29, 2003 07:51 PM |
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Croatian general dead
one of the biggest generals in croatian war died in his house today.
Now there is very sad day in Croatia.
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Nebuka
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posted April 29, 2003 08:41 PM |
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It's not that sad.
He was supposed to be prosecuted (sp.?) for war crimes, but due to his old age and illness he wasn't.
And most who are sad are right-wing nationallists who're against taking our generals and others to Tribunal in Haag.
So, not that sad. Atleast I am not.
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WaY2HeLL
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posted April 29, 2003 10:22 PM |
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oh no.
he was prosecuted (i don't know how to write) as a war criminal but he was first man who stand up and go to war for independet Croatia. And he was a war criminal only for Carla Del Ponte and Hag.
For all Croatian people he is hero.
i don't kknow if you know how was the situation in Croatia in last century but if you find out you will have opinion like me.
THX
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Nebuka
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posted April 29, 2003 10:29 PM |
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WaY2HeLL
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posted April 29, 2003 10:54 PM |
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and of course i am not some nationalistic freak i just wanna live in independent country.
and i am sorry if i have said something wrong but i think that is true what i said
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privatehudson
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posted April 30, 2003 12:38 AM |
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Well I don't even know the guy sorry so, commiserations, but if he was wanted as a war criminal I can understand why some people are less than impressed by the fact he fought for croatia's independance. Then again if he was the first to do so, I can see why croatians see him as a hero.
Sorry for your loss anyway.
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Vlaad
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posted April 30, 2003 11:20 AM |
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Privatehudson, I was impressed by your comments on the war against Iraq even when I didn't agree with you. However, posting everywhere and anywhere, especially if you are not familiar with the subject, might not be the best idea.
You are "sorry for his loss"? That general comitted war crimes and was not in prison due to his poor health. He was like one of those old Nazis who had fled and died in South America or Australia. Yeah, I'm sorry, too... Sorry they escaped the justice.
Nebuka, good points. I just want you to know that there are a lot of people on both banks of the Drina who think the same.
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privatehudson
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posted April 30, 2003 01:58 PM |
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All I said was that I can understand why he's a hero to the croatian's, crimes or none. It's not like people like Tito or Churchill could claim to have never committed a war crime is it? I'm not personally upset, just saying I can see that I agree others do have reasons to be.
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Peacemaker
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posted April 30, 2003 06:43 PM |
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I join PH in passing briefly through this foreign Croatian territory. May we always pay respects to all lost souls, living or dead.
And may love rain on the fire of the anger we all carry, especially when that anger is justified.
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WaY2HeLL
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posted April 30, 2003 06:44 PM |
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Vlaad i can see what you wanna to say but what with Blaskic,Milosevic,Adlesic, Arkan and so on???
i don't wanna go into discussion i just wanna said that he was a great leader i am not some kind of nacionalist.
He was defender. i can see that you know what was happening on this territory and you must say that Serbian people were attacking our country. They want some new country inside Croatia and that was imposible to us and to J.Bobetko. and that is why is he hero.
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Vlaad
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ghost of the past
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posted April 30, 2003 07:57 PM |
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Edited By: Vlaad on 30 Apr 2003
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Privatehudson: There is no doubt Hitler was a national hero for many. On the other hand, I wouldn't have said I was "sorry for their loss".
By the way, Tito was a communist dictator and is a bad example of "the good alignment".
Way2hell: I am a Serb and I say that "my dear countrymen" Milosevic and Arkan (you forgot to mention Karadzic and Mladic)are the worst war criminals in Europe since WWII. So are Tudjman, Bobetko, Gotovina & co, defending their country or not.
Peacemaker: I respect you and your username  but I doubt the families of the victims care for your poetry and pearls of wisdom.
Please simply skip the topic if you don't know what you're talking about. You might hurt someone out there.
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privatehudson
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posted April 30, 2003 09:02 PM |
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Quote:
Privatehudson: There is no doubt Hitler was a national hero for many. On the other hand, I wouldn't have said I was "sorry for their loss".
By the way, Tito was a communist dictator and is a bad example of "the good alignment".
I know who Tito is thank you, I've even been to his tomb twice. I know he fought the germans in WWII whilst others amongst the population fought alongside the germans, each for their own reasons. I know he ruled the country for decades as a dictator, and I know what some serbians felt about him given my family were good friends with many serbian families in Belgrade before the wars broke out back in the 90's. Unfortunately since the wars we have lost touch with all but one family.
I was merely showing that different people have their reasons for ignoring the crimes of generals and politicians. An example being churchill, on the side of "good" but someone who once suggested using chemical weapons on Iraquis. Or bombing german cities within days of the end of WWII that contained next to no german army troops there, merely because the Russians asked him to.
Lets face it, in war, and especially in civil wars war crimes occur. One sides hero is bound to be another sides vilain. Of course war crimes are a bad thing, but hell the british, french and americans pretty much mass employed ex gestapo members, industrialists and scientists after WWII and no-one then raised any complaints.
To some he represented independance and hope, and for those I can understand why they are sorry. I can also understand why those who died under his war crimes and their families are angry. My appologies for seeing both sides of the coin.
But either way I object to the notion I do not know what I'm talking about. If people here are wrong, do them a favour and correct them ok?
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yasmiel
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posted April 30, 2003 09:07 PM |
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I can't say that he was good, and I can't say that he was bad. And you all can't say that if you haven't witnessed with your own eyes. The crimes have surely been commited on both sides. I'm a Croatian but I don't have anything against Serbs as long as they are fair people. The fact is that war was started in Beograd, where I don't know exactly how many thousands of people cheered when Milosevic announced the "liberation of Serbian land"
Every one of that thousands shoud feel guilty for crimes that have comited from both Serbian and Croatian militants because if war wasn't started there, there would be no crimes at all. The side which started it shoud be guilty for crimes from both sides because they initiated them and they woudn't happen otherwise.
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WaY2HeLL
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posted April 30, 2003 10:50 PM |
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as i said once i don't wanna go into fight because of somebodys point of view but i wanna tell that Bobetko was our general and i accept that sad think that he was prosecuted as a war criminal for me that is crime.
Tito was a great man he resist churcill and stallin when he established pact of independent countries and in this way he is good but in other ways he also commited crimes.
But if we look in that way every leader of country commit some crime in carrer.
Sorry on bad english
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Vlaad
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posted May 01, 2003 01:57 AM |
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Privatehudson, close but no cigar.
Theoretical discussions stop when the innocent are killed. This is not another history lesson, a trivia question, an article from a weekly newspaper, a piece of bad news. At least not yet. World War II ended 60 years ago and one can discuss the strategies or whatever. On the other hand, some children here have to live with the fact that their mothers were raped, their fathers slaughtered, their homes bombed. Can you begin to understand that? I didn't think so.
Yasmiel, I agree with the first part of your post. You would be surprised to learn that a large number of people in Belgrade think that way. However, Milosevic didn't order Croat and Muslim war criminals to kill innocent civilians, did he? Anyway, I think that crime has no nationality - it has a name and a surname.
Way2hell, of course there are leaders who didn't comitted crimes, at least not war crimes. The present authoroties in Serbia and Croatia are far better than the previous ones, aren't they? But I'm afraid we will disagree here.
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privatehudson
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posted May 01, 2003 01:53 PM |
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Quote:
Theoretical discussions stop when the innocent are killed.
Innocents die every day, in war they die all the time. It's a fact of war, and in wars like those that general was involved in it was common policy on all sides. You'd have to arrest half the army generals and officers of that war to bring justice fully.
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On the other hand, some children here have to live with the fact that their mothers were raped, their fathers slaughtered, their homes bombed. Can you begin to understand that? I didn't think so.
And the same in other countries in the region. He's not the only war criminal in the area, I highly doubt he'll be the last given the tensions that have existed there for centuries. Can I understand that? Not directly, I can see the affect it had on my grandfather returning from WWII having seen Belsen Concentration camp way back when and the effect it had on him till the day he died. I can see the affect the killing of an innocent family friend had on us after he died in NI.
War's hell, peace when it comes though involves comprimise. In my country there has been on-off violence of bombing of innocents for 30-40 years, at the end of the war or fighting though there comes a point where peace is needed, and compromise is neccessary for peace. This is one of those cases. Of course you have every right to not feel sorrow or to be angry, Whilst I may not have experience it, I can understand why you would. But they have every right to treat him as a national hero. We all suffer from selective memory at the ends of wars after all. This is just another case of it.
Or would you rather re-start another war just to bring to justice those generals responsible for crimes in the last one?
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privatehudson
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posted May 01, 2003 01:56 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Theoretical discussions stop when the innocent are killed.
Innocents die every day, in war they die all the time. It's a fact of war, and in wars like those that general was involved in it was common policy on all sides. You'd have to arrest half the army generals and officers of that war to bring justice fully.
Quote:
On the other hand, some children here have to live with the fact that their mothers were raped, their fathers slaughtered, their homes bombed. Can you begin to understand that? I didn't think so.
And the same in other countries in the region. He's not the only war criminal in the area, I highly doubt he'll be the last given the tensions that have existed there for centuries. Can I understand that? Not directly, I can see the affect it had on my grandfather returning from WWII having seen Belsen Concentration camp way back when and the effect it had on him till the day he died. I can see the affect the killing of an innocent family friend had on us after he died in NI.
War's hell, peace when it comes though involves comprimise. In my country there has been on-off violence of bombing of innocents for 30-40 years, at the end of the war or fighting though there comes a point where peace is needed, and compromise is neccessary for peace. This is one of those cases. You think I am happy that terrorists from the organisations responsible for innocent families and people dying in my country are now walking free? Course I'm not, but you will NOT get peace any other way than compromise.
Of course you have every right to not feel sorrow or to be angry, Whilst I may not have experience it, I can understand on a simple why you would. But they have every right to treat him as a national hero. We all suffer from selective memory at the ends of wars after all. This is just another case of it.
Or would you rather re-start another war just to bring to justice those generals responsible for crimes in the last one?
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Vlaad
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posted May 01, 2003 09:05 PM |
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Edited By: Vlaad on 1 May 2003
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You'd have to arrest half the army generals and officers of that war to bring justice fully.
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No, not really. Only those who ordered, comitted or didn't sanction war crimes. The War Tribunal in the Hague doesn't want the whole Serbian army - they want those who deliberately violated the Geneva Convention. By name and surname.
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And the same in other countries in the region. He's not the only war criminal in the area, I highly doubt he'll be the last given the tensions that have existed there for centuries.
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Yet another stereotype. The Balkans are not different than the rest of Europe in that way. Or the rest of the world, for that matter.
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War's hell, peace when it comes though involves comprimise. In my country there has been on-off violence of bombing of innocents for 30-40 years, at the end of the war or fighting though there comes a point where peace is needed, and compromise is neccessary for peace. This is one of those cases. You think I am happy that terrorists from the organisations responsible for innocent families and people dying in my country are now walking free? Course I'm not, but you will NOT get peace any other way than compromise.
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What's this got to do with the war crimes discussion? I cannot see the link between liberating war criminals and reaching peace? On the contrary, they must be prosecuted for the sake of lasting peace.
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Of course you have every right to not feel sorrow or to be angry, Whilst I may not have experience it, I can understand on a simple why you would. But they have every right to treat him as a national hero.
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This isn't the matter of seeing both sides of the coin, PH. This is about supporting war crimes. I can argue with the Croats at this forum about the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia, but I cannot understand supporting war crimes.
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We all suffer from selective memory at the ends of wars after all. This is just another case of it.
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Oh boy, are you wrong here. Pleeez don't you "we" me now.If you had read my previous posts more carefully, or recognized the names listed, you wouldn't have written such a line. Again, I am a Serb who says that all war criminals must be prosecuted.
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Or would you rather re-start another war just to bring to justice those generals responsible for crimes in the last one?
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On the contrary. But that general, just like many others, was wanted by an international court of justice. European officials remind the Croat authoroties every month to arrest them. However, due to the nationalists who started and waged the war, justice has not been served.
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WaY2HeLL
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posted May 01, 2003 10:00 PM |
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Today on Serbian political scene are better people than before and i was not pleased when i was find out that PM was killed because he was good man.
but in croatia there are some weird people on top and that is bad we need changes and that must be quickly.
i don't know how are you satisfied with new govornment but i think that can and must be better.
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Nebuka
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posted May 01, 2003 10:37 PM |
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Be sure to vote then.
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