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| Thread: American-Roman Connection |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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privatehudson
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posted November 08, 2003 01:26 AM |
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America is no more collapsing now than it was at the time of independance. To me America is not an empire, it is a country, and not one under threat from outside invasion. Whilst America may begin to loose her grip on her power over the outside world, I doubt she will loose her grip on power within her country.
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Wolfman
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posted November 08, 2003 01:40 AM |
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I guess this is just a case of "I'm here, and your over there", mate. It's a passive invasion, civilians. Not to be racist or xenophobic, or anything.
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privatehudson
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posted November 08, 2003 03:13 PM |
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We have immigration thank you, we have the highest in Europe and probably not that far off your levels I'd imagine. Considering America's nature I find it most interesting that those families or who have ancestors who have emigrated there perhaps within 100 years (maybe not you, but some will have) are now complaining about others doing exactly the same thing...
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Wolfman
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posted November 08, 2003 04:03 PM |
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Do you have millions of ilegals pouring over your boarders every year? I don't have a problem with immigration if it's legal. Immigrants have done great things for this country. The Irish and Chinese had a big part in building the Trans-Continental Railroad, for an example. I just don't appreciate people coming into my country ilegaly, and then taxpayers have to pay for them to live here a lot of the time. It's not fair to the people who came to this country legaly and people who were already here. I believe people should work for their way. I know I try to live by that everyday, I don't like it when things are just given to me.
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privatehudson
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posted November 08, 2003 05:52 PM |
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I hardly think there were that many laws dealing with immigration back in those days, and those that were probably weren't enforced very well. After all the Cherokee tried to stop immigration into their land through your legal system and look where that got them. I imagine back then they had no love for immigrants either, but again that kind of immigration is deemed ok isn't it? Settlers moving into land (often extremely cheaply I might add in the mid west) formerly owned by someone else entirely who were then forced to live on reservations is not entirely far removed from the idea of handouts either. The other point is also that the strong and able in society provide for the poor, weak or persecuted. That may be a little too left wing for America though...
And I'd suggest "millions" is a little over the top, this would quite rapidly make America full and significantly expand your population. But yes, we have tens of thousands if not more entering the country, and yes illegally. Not across borders I grant you, we're an island so we don't actually have land borders, but we get immigration. Considering our population is one fifth of yours and our land infinitely smaller and far more densely populated overall, I would suggest our problem should it be one at least equals yours if not surpasses it.
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Peacemaker
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posted November 08, 2003 07:07 PM |
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It's a real treat watchig the two of you spar like this. Hope it's alright if I interject once again.
First, PH, what have you been reading lately about my tribe??? I think whatever it is I should get it and read it myself.
Second, I do agree that America will never completely collapse from within. But most of the old Empires did not do that either -- take your own country (PH) for instance. And then there's still Rome of course. But I would hope that our insidious influence around the world would eventually shrivel back. I have also heard some political analysts speculate that it is possible the US might eventually break up into regional provinces, then taking the form of a union of smaller countries similar to the European Union (like the South, the Midwest, the Southwest, etc). What do you guys think of that?
Third, it is true we are not an Empire in the traditional sense, that I will grant both of you. This nation in these modern times is much more insidious in the way it goes about exerting its imperialist influences. Instead of invading and sticking a flag in the soil outright, we do things like arm the rebels of a country with whose government we have some disagreement (i.e. the Contradoras in Nicaragua), or help "depose" an existing leader and then plant our choice of a puppet in his place (the Shah of Iran), or arm both sides of two opposing governments to busy them with destroying one another (Iran and Iraq). Stuff like that. We assert our influence around the globe in any number of ways that work to our advantage.
I'm not sure what the two of you think of that, but I'm surely interested to find out...
Fourth, Wolfman, while I would agree that we have some huge number of people pouring primarily over the Mexican border, from my experience with illegals here in Denver for the most part they are pouring in to work here and send money back home. They do nasty, hard, dangerous work that nobody here wants anyway, like picking melons and tearing up/replacing roofs and cleaning hotels and homes and doing hard labor jobs at what most Americans would think are paltry wages. But ond dollar equals about ten pesos at the moment, and the dollars go a long way in Mexico where the economy is so abysmal. I honestly don't know the statistics on this, but am just speaking from my own experience. It is my understanding, however, that currently the vast amount of government aide goes to individuals who are legally here.
So, does anybody actually know what the immigrant stats for Brittan and/or the U.S. are??? PH, what's your population these days? What's your land area in comparison to ours here? I know we've probably talked about this but can't remember what was said. Taking the vast difference between our populations and land area into account, how do the statistics compare?
Finally, noting the new signature, Wolfman....
LOL!!! Sending me a little subtle message there are you?
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privatehudson
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posted November 08, 2003 11:07 PM |
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From the Home Office official statistics for 2002:
115,895 people were granted asylum or settlement within the UK
65,000 Removed from the UK or departed on their own grounds
For the last quarter of 2003 On Asylum seekers within the country seeking support:
37,440 were seeking only subsistence report
53,050 were in accomodation provided by the state
That's over 100,000 that they KNOW of, and those deported last year are those they found and managed to make leave.
The UK has 58,789,194 people
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=185
The US has 292,542,270 people
http://www.census.gov/population/www/
Which means the USA's population is 4.97 (or 5 to round it up) times the UK's, as I stated.
The US is 3,794,083 square miles in size, the UK 94,525 sq miles
Which means the USA is over 40 times the size of the UK, I grant you that's not infinite, but I was simply using that term to state the collosal difference in size.
BUT the UK has an average of 636 people living in each of it's square miles, the US only 79, so our country is much more crowded and urbanised. This means two things:
1) We've got no damn room!
2) If our density of population was matched by the states there would be 2,413,036,788 yanks! That's too damn scary...
most of these last statistics come from:
http://www.infoplease.com/countries.html
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Peacemaker
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posted November 09, 2003 12:56 AM |
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Thanks PH. Any comments on my observations about imperialist activities by America?
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Dingo
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posted November 09, 2003 01:04 AM |
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And I'd suggest "millions" is a little over the top, this would quite rapidly make America full and significantly expand your population. But yes, we have tens of thousands if not more entering the country, and yes illegally.
Ummm actually they do come here in the millions. My entire neighborhood was changed because of those illegal immigrants. I lived in a small town of about 4,000 people. It was a quite and safe town. Then Illegal immigrants started to get smuggled into our little community. They were smuggled there because of the little enforcement. In 10 years they basically destroyed the community. Now there are drugs all over the streets, theft, and even murders. I moved out of there but everytime I come back it gets me angry. Don't tell me illegal immigrants are harmless. They come here and trash America. They have no respect.
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Peacemaker
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posted November 09, 2003 01:20 AM |
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Sorry to hear this, Dingo. I don't know what forces are at work there. But I urge you not to overgeneralize.
When I was living in a boarded up hole in the wall with my two-year-old son just a few years ago, I made friends with several illegals in the community. They came over and helped me replace the roof, install windows, care for my son, and rebuild several walls in the house, all for practically nothing. They sometimes came by just to hang out and teach me Spanish. We talked a lot and most of them were men who were sending money back home.
So my point is, they're not all bad. I guess things work differently in different communities. I just wanted to say though that those guys probably saved my life during that very difficult time.
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Wolfman
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posted November 09, 2003 01:43 AM |
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PH
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I hardly think there were that many laws dealing with immigration back in those days, and those that were probably weren't enforced very well.
There were many laws back then, and a lot of it was based on how many people could ever the U.S. from a specific country. (ex) 5000 from Ireland, 8000 from Germany and so on.
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After all the Cherokee tried to stop immigration into their land through your legal system and look where that got them.
Yeah, and it sucks doesn’t it. Nothing I ever said, I should hope, should make you believe that I enjoy reading about suffering people. The Trail of Tears as it is called today, is the worst part of Andrew Jackson’s presidency. And it is still controversial.
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I imagine back then they had no love for immigrants either
No, that’s why the Irish and Chinese were building the railroads. The Irish and the Italians made up most of the slums in the cities. Boston, New York, and Chicago. New York and Boston, because that is where they came in to the U.S.
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but again that kind of immigration is deemed ok isn't it? Settlers moving into land (often extremely cheaply I might add in the mid west) formerly owned by someone else entirely who were then forced to live on reservations
Yeah, that’s right, I enjoy reading about that. (sarcasm, I hope you could tell) But don’t hold the British so high, either. They were the ones who started the whole mess, weren’t they? So, if the British never came, you would be over there drinking your tea. Peacemaker would be doing something in the “Cherokee” country, whatever it would be called. And I wouldn’t be here “talking” to you, because I’m half Irish and half German, it would definitely be a different world, wouldn’t it?
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The other point is also that the strong and able in society provide for the poor, weak or persecuted. That may be a little too left wing for America though...
So how is wanting people to work for a living instead of mooching off the government wrong? I understand if people are unable to work, but laziness is no excuse. And the left wing crack wasn’t needed.
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And I'd suggest "millions" is a little over the top, this would quite rapidly make America full and significantly expand your population.
Over the top? Per year, yes. But there are at least 2 million illegal immigrants in California alone. That’s why Governor Gray Davis’ plan to give illegals driver’s licenses was such a big deal.
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our land infinitely smaller and far more densely populated overall, I would suggest our problem should it be one at least equals yours if not surpasses it.
I’m sure we have some cities over here that are more densely populated than yours. But you’re right in the fact that if you take the national population density yours would be higher. But it’s not like they flock to open land and start a farm, they go to the cities because that’s where the jobs are. And working is good, as I have stated before, but is it really too much to ask to do it legally?
PM
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It's a real treat watching the two of you spar like this.
It’s a real treat being a part of it, I missed doing this for a while.
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the US might eventually break up into regional provinces, then taking the form of a union of smaller countries similar to the European Union (like the South, the Midwest, the Southwest, etc). What do you guys think of that?
Would it end up like Rome after it split? At first it would be good, but then would it lead to America’s collapse?
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This nation in these modern times is much more insidious in the way it goes about exerting its imperialist influences.
Yes, we do, and the examples are good.
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or arm both sides of two opposing governments to busy them with destroying one another (Iran and Iraq).
Yeah, that’s kinda funny to me, I don’t know why… Have you read or seen the movie “The Sum of All Fears”? There is a Neo-Nazi who is giving a speech about Hitler in Germany and he said Hitler messed up in trying to take down the superpowers by attacking them. He says the way to bring them down is to pit them against each other. And he almost succeeds.
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They do nasty, hard, dangerous work that nobody here wants anyway
Yeah, that’s what I was getting at with the Irish and Chinese. The Chinese were deported shortly after the completion of the Railroads because the Irish and Americans were getting sick and dying out there, but the Chinese wouldn’t die. How is this possible? The Chinese drank a lot of tea, but to do this they had to boil their water. The others didn’t do this and got internal parasites, dysentery and cholera.
I have a problem with the U.S. policy with Cubans too. If they get here and touch the soil they get to stay? How does that work? Castro is not exactly the best guy, but that also causes a lot of Cubans to die in the trip over here. 90 miles is a long way in a bathtub boat. Or, my favorite, the truck that some Cubans turned into a boat, using the drive shaft to turn a propeller in the back, the most ingenious thing I saw created on the news in a long time. Anyway, where were we…
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Finally, noting the new signature, Wolfman....
LOL!!! Sending me a little subtle message there are you?
Take it however you want. Actually it was for Dingo, having a little scuffle over the legalization of marijuana, but that’s another thread. Problem is I can’t get my pictures I post to stay more than a couple hours. I still haven’t figured that out.
PH, again
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That's over 100,000 that they KNOW of…
“That they know of”. That is why we will never be able to put a number on the amount of illegals coming into the U.S. every year. Oh well.
Well this is way too long! 2 pages in Word at 10 font! Almost a dArGoN post, whatever happened to him… If you truly read all of this, maybe you should seek some help. I wouldn’t read this, anyway…
Oh boy, and three new posts since I started typing.
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privatehudson
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posted November 09, 2003 02:42 AM |
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There were many laws back then, and a lot of it was based on how many people could ever the U.S. from a specific country. (ex) 5000 from Ireland, 8000 from Germany and so on.
I somehow doubt these figures were kept to rigidly though, and I also imagine a fair few people entered the states back then illegally also given the fluid nature of borders and lack of policing in comparison then.
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Yeah, that’s right, I enjoy reading about that. (sarcasm, I hope you could tell) But don’t hold the British so high, either
I don't actually recall stating I did rate them that highly, but if you want to get picky, it wasn't just the British who "started the whole mess". It was europe overall and specifically spain, England/Britian, France, Holland, Spain and some others, it's not quite so fair to blame it all on the British.
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So how is wanting people to work for a living instead of mooching off the government wrong
I wasn't aware you can personally tell how all or even a majority of illegal immigrants are "mooching off the government" and lazy.
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I imagine back then they had no love for immigrants either
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No, that’s why the Irish and Chinese were building the railroads. The Irish and the Italians made up most of the slums in the cities. Boston, New York, and Chicago. New York and Boston, because that is where they came in to the U.S.
My intention was to show essentially that to Native Americans of that time it's the entire white race who were illegal immigrants, not only that but some even proved in your own courts that you were illegal and still you paid no notice. So whilst it's nice for you to be able to sit and theorise on how other Illegal immigrants are ruining America, spare a thought for how your ancestors (maybe) were illegal immigrants themselves, it makes for interesting reading that you can now deny the rights your ancestors enjoyed to those who wish to in Modern times.
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And the left wing crack wasn’t needed.
Actually, yes it is, you see personally I think a number of immigrants should be welcomed into our societies and supported, as long as this number is limited. I doubt this would be too popular in America from all I have read of it though.
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But there are at least 2 million illegal immigrants in California alone.
With respect that's no suprise given it's geographical location.
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I’m sure we have some cities over here that are more densely populated than yours. But you’re right in the fact that if you take the national population density yours would be higher. But it’s not like they flock to open land and start a farm, they go to the cities because that’s where the jobs are. And working is good, as I have stated before, but is it really too much to ask to do it legally?
Of course you do, I was talking about the nation as a whole and indicating that we have much less space to take in people than you do. I would be interested to see something on this whole work thing though, I mean as an immigrant (legal or otherwise), how easy is it to get decent work in the states? From what I read the public transport outside of Big cities leaves a lot to be desired for example, do they get state or national help?
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That is why we will never be able to put a number on the amount of illegals coming into the U.S. every year. Oh well.
Why don't you see if they tried? 
As for Yankeeland, hmmm I doubt the Presidents will be willing to see such a breakup, remember Lincoln would rather have preserved the union than slavery? Also in terms of nationality there's not to my knowledge a HUGE seperatist movement based on either regional grounds, or ethnic grounds. It's not like say the Quebec/Montreal region of Canada for example. The EU is made up of distinct nationalities with little to tie them together other than mutual benefit, the states of America are another matter entirely to me.
As for the imperialistic tendencies, I doubt these will ever cause the fall of the states itself as it would take a vast alliance of such nations to do so, or as wolf said another superpower. As I said, I can see the power of the states dwindling, but only in terms of it's influence abroad as the likes of the EU come to more power if they can ever stop squabbling long enough to unite themselves. I think this could happen in the long run, and a number of such alliances would inevitably lessen the power of the existing superpowers.
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Wolfman
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posted November 09, 2003 03:05 AM |
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spare a thought for how your ancestors (maybe) were illegal immigrants themselves, it makes for interesting reading that you can now deny the rights your ancestors enjoyed to those who wish to in Modern times.
But they weren’t.
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I think a number of immigrants should be welcomed into our societies and supported, as long as this number is limited. I doubt this would be too popular in America from all I have read of it though.
Limited, yes, then I guess we agree. And no I don’t think it would be too popular, but for the opposite reason you do. Liberals all over the country would be saying that we are to strict and need to let more in, like it would be more fair that way.
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As for Yankeeland…
Nice.
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hmmm I doubt the Presidents will be willing to see such a breakup, remember Lincoln would rather have preserved the union than slavery?
No, a break up would be a bad thing. Just look at the Beatles, once they broke up, they started dying! ß---Bad Example
I think the whole Emancipation Proclamation was because of the Republican values of the time, and now, and as a kind of slap in the face to the south.
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privatehudson
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posted November 09, 2003 04:23 AM |
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But they weren’t
Some where. I'm assuming you're not descended from entirely Native American stock, therefore at some point your relations emigrated to the USA from (insert country here). In this case, to the native americans you and specifically your ancestors could be considered an illegal immigrant as such.
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Limited, yes, then I guess we agree. And no I don’t think it would be too popular, but for the opposite reason you do. Liberals all over the country would be saying that we are to strict and need to let more in, like it would be more fair that way.
Oh please, so GWB and his business friends are going to start welcoming mexican and asian immigrants with open arms and pumping money into supporting them? I somehow doubt this, conservatives the world over are never known for their generosity when it comes to money, especially when it comes to those that can't repay that money in some way.
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Nice.
Ooops sorry, thought you had a sense of humour given your tea remark, my mistake 
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I think the whole Emancipation Proclamation was because of the Republican values of the time,
I disagree, I think Lincoln signed it to keep the UK and france out of the war and to provide a morally acceptable reason to the world for bringing the south back into the union. It's way too ambiguous to be a true civil rights document for one.
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Peacemaker
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posted November 09, 2003 07:27 PM |
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WOW!!!
Knock our socks off guys!
Well Wolf, there's little I can say here, except to agree that it remains debatable whether immigration into any lands beyond Plymouth Rock can ever be morally justified in terms of the fact that this entire country was densely populated when the first white guys showed up. I think that was PH's point when he said everybody's "illegal" (except for the Indians).
Then there's people like me, who would be part illegal and part not --
LOL!!!!
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Wolfman
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posted November 09, 2003 07:33 PM |
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Oh boy!
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(except for the Indians).
But the Indians came from Asia! So you would be a full illegal alien! Good for you!
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bort
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posted November 09, 2003 07:37 PM |
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(except for the Indians).
Don't seem to recall anybody passing customs as they went across the Bering Strait. That would probably mean that everybody's an illegal, bar none.
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Wolfman
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posted November 09, 2003 07:38 PM |
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Heh  That's funny, must have posted at the same time.
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bort
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posted November 09, 2003 07:40 PM |
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No, I read your post. I thought you were making an "Indian from south asia" vs. "Indian from North America" comment.
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Wolfman
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posted November 09, 2003 07:41 PM |
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Oh, no I wasn't
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