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| Thread: American-Roman Connection |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Peacemaker
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Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted November 17, 2003 06:27 PM |
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Wanna bet???
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bjorn190
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Jebus maker
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posted November 17, 2003 06:31 PM |
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The lands were lost through war, and thats the only way to gain them back. It's not gonna happen tho, because what's lost is lost. But its a nice story to inspire and give hope for the future.
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted November 17, 2003 06:45 PM |
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Wanna bet???
What my quote was saying is, if they use MY money, they can live by OUR rules.
The same reason the garment industry in Milasia no longer employs people under 14. We wouldn't have allowed companies to operate there if they did, so the country changed its laws.
P.S. Lets not start an argument about the families that depended on the income of the "children" who now have jobs that pay less and are 10 times more dangerous. That isn't our problem. That's also another topic, sorry about digressing.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted November 17, 2003 07:11 PM |
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Boy you guys are stubborn.
First, bjorn, listen carefully -- I'll say it again. Not all the lands were lost.. There are still Indian lands in this country. Also -- the disputed lands -- at least the lands I am talking about were not lost through warfare, but through abrogated treaties, many of which were reached between the U.S. and Indian nations to achieve a peaceful resolution to the various instances of warfare you are talking about. To just simply throw your hands up at this point is to continue to dishonor standing treaties, many of which can and should be honored in the future. I may be wrong, but I know of no current disputes involving lands lost through warfare.
Second, let me be a little more specific here Delfontes.
First, a quick perusal of the last few years' long bills for the U.S. government will reveal that billions of dollars have gone to foreign aid from the budget -- your tax dollars -- to dozens of foreign "independent" nations.
Second, if you are saying there is a distinction between individual Indians being on welfare and foreign aid, perhaps there is. But can you tell me how nullifying Tribal governments would cure that? I assure you -- if you wiped out Indian nations altogether, the same people who are now on welfare would still be on welfare -- and probably many more with the collapse of our already limping economies. In nullifying our governments you will have just nullified your last hope of not making Indian people a permanent part of your welfare system.
So, if you don't want us on welfare, then let us restore control over our economies so we can get off your welfare, and eliminate the same jurisdictional controls over our governments and territories, that you seem to insist you have a right on imposing, which very impositions justify counting Indians as U.S. citizens for purposes of being eligible for welfare in the first place.
Can't have it both ways, my man.
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted November 17, 2003 07:30 PM |
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U.S. government will reveal that billions of dollars have gone to foreign aid from the budget -- your tax dollars.
I tried to address this above. The money spent over there is 95% with strings. We require other countries to change their laws, and they do trade with us. We make money in the long run, 
There is a distinct financial benefit in most cases, and a humanitarian (PR) benefit on the others.
With indian tribes, internal, there is no PR benefit, and we don't get our welfare dollars back. There have been tribes, prior to gambling, where up to 70% of the individual tribe members were recieving some form of financial aid from the US government, while at the same time saying "we are a separate nation".
That number may seem like it's made up, and granted I don't remember the source, but in the past 100 years native americans in general have become leeches on the society they hate.
The ones that have integrated with "society" and blended, like every other culture that makes up this country, have done well, and contribute... anyhow the more I write, the more I offend you, and the less we agree, so perhaps I should stop .
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 17, 2003 07:48 PM |
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Independant nations do not use my tax dollars for welfare.
That would be more accurate if it said:
Truly independant nations relying on what is rightfully theirs on their tribal lands would not need use my tax dollars for welfare. PM pointed this out you might want to note. Denying them their resources to the full and then complaining when they need support is hypocrisy and worse, it's extortion.
Also if you paid attention a fair few countries use your tax dollars for survival, say Israel for example, an independant nation that the USA and others have more than once saved from destruction. Israel couldn't exist without American aid and military support, and you have you offered your complaint to this and any of the other independant nations America backs?
PM - Your modern day Indian "Intelligentsia" reminds me of the way the Cherokee beat various parts of the American Federal and State government over land rights issues and settler encroachment. They were screwed over too even though they won in the Supreme court also.
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This isn't their country anymore, and I frankly don't care anymore how our "forfathers" got it, it is ours now.
That's awkward logic is it not? As citizens of the USA as they currently are, it's as much their country as yours.
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The lands were lost through war, and thats the only way to gain them back. It's not gonna happen tho, because what's lost is lost. But its a nice story to inspire and give hope for the future.
As PM accurately states, they don't want the entire continent back, they want their tribal lands to have use of their own resources.
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First, bjorn, listen carefully -- I'll say it again. Not all the lands were lost.. There are still Indian lands in this country. Also -- the disputed lands -- at least the lands I am talking about were not lost through warfare, but through abrogated treaties, many of which were reached between the U.S. and Indian nations to achieve a peaceful resolution to the various instances of warfare you are talking about. To just simply throw your hands up at this point is to continue to dishonor standing treaties, many of which can and should be honored in the future. I may be wrong, but I know of no current disputes involving lands lost through warfare.
That's exactly the issue really, ever since the West came into contact they've consistently broke treaty after treaty often with little or no cause, more often than not in order to satisfy their greed. Now it's said that the indians wanting you to honour that treaty is (and here's the irony) greedy.... I find this a little rich. And simply using 1 select group of Native Americans to justify the treatment of the diverse groups in the country is just silly.
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Wolfman
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Insomniac
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posted November 17, 2003 10:47 PM |
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Once again, we are not talking about you paying some individual Indian for his or her ancestor being "wronged" a hundred years ago. We are talking about things like millions of dollars that the United States government still owes Nations under standing contracts that have never been paid, or the relinquishment of control over lands that are still tribal lands in the eyes of the court, but that the United States continues to exercise jurisdictional control over.
Ohhhhhhh, now I get it. 
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Wolfman, you are one of the most informed people I know.
Well, thanks.
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What does it tell you -- about your culture, your educational system, your government -- that you apparently know nothing of any of this???
It says I forgot, I do remember now talking about that stuff in 8th grade, but that was 5-6 years ago. But we do have biased history books. All countries do, don't even try to deny it.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2003 10:54 PM |
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But we do have biased history books. All countries do, don't even try to deny it.
You know all countries´ history books? 
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted November 17, 2003 10:57 PM |
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History is written by the winners.
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Wolfman
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Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted November 17, 2003 11:05 PM |
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Don't kid yourself, each country has a bias one way or the other. And yes, I know all history books...
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted November 17, 2003 11:30 PM |
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I must ammend my previous statement... as I am pretty sure France has history books.
Maybe they just translated another country's books?
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 18, 2003 12:17 AM |
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Well they mostly wrote the History on the American Revolution didn't they?
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Wolfman
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posted November 18, 2003 12:19 AM |
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I do believe, PH, that Lafayette was the only major Frenchman in the Revolution.
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted November 18, 2003 12:25 AM |
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Ok, so they saved our butts in that whole Revolution thing... nice ships they had .
Thanks Mr. Franklin, we owe you one.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted November 18, 2003 12:39 AM |
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PH! Great points as always. You know how smart I think you are when you agree with me.
Delfontes, I thought you didn't read history books!!! (Just kidding lol) And don't worry about offending me, I might continue disagreeing with you though and vice versa! These frays are always educational for everyone involved, don't you think? The very fact that you expressed concern is sweet though cause it seems genuine. 
And Wolfman, ahhhh, my man. Never would have denied it.
And bjorn... (looks around) -- bjorn???? Hey, where'd he go???
More later on the causes of Indian dependency -- it's dinnertime now.
P.S. actually the returns on how much our global aid has "profitted" us looked pretty abysmal when I googled "foreign aid" today...
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Delfontes
Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
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posted November 18, 2003 12:55 AM |
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P.S. actually the returns on how much our global aid has "profitted" us looked pretty abysmal when I googled "foreign aid" today...
Guess I should look into that, hehe.
Some of the "profit" I don't know how you'd measure... like when we pretty much rebuilt Germany and Japan, we now trade privately with them... and both have been great allies and success financially. I don't know if the government made much money out of them unless you include taxes/tarriff's.
Same with Iraq, financially, this will cost Billions... but if it works, we have a democracy that is relatively safe for businesses to go in, and sell them umbrella's for their Mai Tai's... etc.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 18, 2003 01:28 AM |
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I do believe, PH, that Lafayette was the only major Frenchman in the Revolution.
Other than the 6000 of them at Yorktown, the X number of ships beseiging said place (no doubt under a notable commander) and the numerous seige artillery they brought enabling the seige...
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Wolfman
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Insomniac
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posted November 18, 2003 01:31 AM |
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought you ment big important people. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc...
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privatehudson
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posted November 18, 2003 01:33 AM |
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How about the French King who made it all possible?
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Wolfman
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posted November 18, 2003 01:36 AM |
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Eh, not important, he was beheaded in 30-50 years after that anyway...
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