|
|
consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted December 31, 2003 08:14 AM |
|
|
I beg your pardon
I was in the Airforce from 1993 to 1998. I witnessed, first hand, what Clinton did for the military in that branch of service and a little of what he did for the others. I can tell you he very much approved of the so called "war machine" being more sophisticated. It's modern job has been assessed to complete highly focused and specialized tasks focusing more on each of the special forces of each military service. I was in the special forces for the Airforce branch of service called, Pararescue. We trained with most of the other branches all except army Delta force. Remember the movie Black Hawk Down? That was my job. To rescue downed pilots through use of special operations in a joint task force working in conjunction with the other armed services. This is where the military is headed. President Clinton was VERY supportive. He did cut the military manning in half and its budget in very interesting areas. Some of the areas were mainly grunt training and support. In the new age it is highly unlikely that an all out war with another country is imminent. It is much more likely, as most of today's military strategists will tell you, that terrorism is the war of the future. That kind of war is best fought with smaller highly specialized soldiers trained especially for that particular mission. Having served under President Clinton in the Airforce I respectfully respond in haste as to immediately inform you that while his moral behavior may have been in serious question his ability to serve the American department of defense was more than reasonable. It was visionary.
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
posted December 31, 2003 08:18 AM |
|
|
Try telling that to a 12 year old who's parents wages were cut... My heart almost bleed 
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted December 31, 2003 08:31 AM |
|
|
Private Hudson
Your response reminded me of two things:
1. The British special forces I met while in the Airforce were fine gentlemen and it was an honor to meet and work along side them.
2. Wolfman's opinion is not the first time I've heard those remarks about Clinton. A lot of people think that because of his immoral behavior he probably screwed up more than just his marriage. I feel strongly about President Clinton and embarrassed at the same time but I can't simply sit by while people attack his support of our military especially after having been witness to it.
Pollitically Incorrect's Bill Maher was one of Clinton's most vocal opponents. He most likely lost his show over it. He has been quoted as saying, "What kind of coward launches a missile from thousands of miles away to some 3rd world arab in a cave?" He was referring to the secret missile attack Clinton attempted against Bin Laden during his administration long before 9/11. And yes, the missile obviously missed its intended target.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted December 31, 2003 09:04 AM |
|
|
Quote:
2. Wolfman's opinion is not the first time I've heard those remarks about Clinton. A lot of people think that because of his immoral behavior he probably screwed up more than just his marriage. I feel strongly about President Clinton and embarrassed at the same time but I can't simply sit by while people attack his support of our military especially after having been witness to it.
I was witness to it, I'm not impressed. Congratulations on being a Pararescue guy, very hard to get into I know. My dad was a recruiter for the Air Force, I saw it all. He did screw up more than his marriage! He lost the nuclear codes! He sure makes me feel safe.
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted December 31, 2003 09:32 AM |
|
|
I'm not that sure I'd feel that much more safe with someone like Bush in control of them either considering some of the remarks he comes out with
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted December 31, 2003 05:16 PM |
|
|
But does he lose them? Nope 
____________
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted December 31, 2003 08:54 PM |
|
|
Give him time... Besides I find the notion that one man, any man has such power quite disturbing anyway, so the point is irrelevant to me. I'd be as worried about having a man who controls nuclear weapons who makes so many verbal errors as I would be someone who looses codes.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 31, 2003 09:37 PM |
|
|
A man who cannot even eat a Brezel without nearly suffocating ...
____________
|
|
Shadowcaster
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
|
|
posted December 31, 2003 09:52 PM |
|
|
A man who got into an Ivy League school (I forget which one...) that no one in this thread could likely get into.
____________
>_>
|
|
privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
|
|
posted January 01, 2004 02:55 AM |
|
|
No doubt something to do with who his relations were... And he dodged war when it came to his turn to fight, the options could go on forever. Truth be told I'm not happy with any one person, so it's a moot point.
____________
We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
|
|
Shadowcaster
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
|
|
posted January 01, 2004 10:46 PM |
|
|
It is a moot point. The smartest man in the world could make a horrible leader, while a poor man with good ideas and selfless dedication to the people beneath him/her (I know I'm pushing it here, no one in politics is selfless anymore ) could turn out to be a great president in the long run.
____________
>_>
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted January 01, 2004 11:14 PM |
|
|
Oops -- been missing this one for a while.
As the descendant of one of its victim peoples, I can tell you with great certainty why others express dislike of the U.S. It is its arrogance in both word and deed.
America has some unique traits. It is a country borne of violence, thrust forth across the continent on the misguided theory of Manifest Destiny; the belief that God has granted it the absolute right to run dominion wherever it sees fit. America has a life all its own when it comes to foisting itself into the space and business of whomever it wants to in order to achieve whatever is in its best interest. Its self-justified trajectory is nothing short of Machiavallian.
This is not always true in reality, of course. But the attitude is always there; we are right, of course we are right. We are America. How dare people resent us for that? America has the right to intrude elsewhere if it thinks elsewhere needs intruding. It has the absolute right to plant the juggernaut boot of its influence in any culture or society, despite the impact on that socio-economic system and the culture, because it stands for Freedom and Goodness.
Just because you happen to do something good some of the time while you bluster about exporting your global dominance, does not mean you aren't blustering about. Enough blustering makes others suspicious, even when your motives are pure. And you guys believe me, I have had a real direct taste of how impure the government's motives can be, and how little people in America know about it.
As is the case with all generalizations, there is a thread of truth behind the overgeneralization about American stupidity. Americans have perhaps the broadest access to information in the world, yet they seem to know less about the rest of the world than the citizenries of other countries. Americans generally have an attitude that the rest of the world is either just sort-of sitting around waiting to be Americanized, or scrambling to be more like America. America tends to see itself as the center of the world, and appears to be largely or completely unaware that it has a very specific culture, distinct in many ways from the cultures of other peoples, which those other peoples may or may not choose to emulate in whole or in part. Understandably, citizens of other countries tend to resent that attitude.
Certainly there are elements of the American political-economic system that others can benfit from. I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But we tend to ram it down other peoples' throats without even realizing it. Part of the old Manifest Destiny attitude whence we were spawned. Our product is freedom, yet we ironically attempt to propagate that freedom by frequently engaging in acts which smell suspiciously like a complete disregard for the sovereignty and rights to self-determination of other peoples, and a complete lack of awareness, or even outright contempt, for socio-economi-cultural systems that are radically different from our own.
That's why all the hatred.
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted January 02, 2004 12:24 AM |
|
|
Outrageously incredulous!
Quote:
Oops -- been missing this one for a while.
As the descendant of one of its victim peoples, I can tell you with great certainty why others express dislike of the U.S. It is its arrogance in both word and deed.
America has some unique traits. It is a country borne of violence, thrust forth across the continent on the misguided theory of Manifest Destiny; the belief that God has granted it the absolute right to run dominion wherever it sees fit. America has a life all its own when it comes to foisting itself into the space and business of whomever it wants to in order to achieve whatever is in its best interest. Its self-justified trajectory is nothing short of Machiavallian.
This is not always true in reality, of course. But the attitude is always there; we are right, of course we are right. We are America. How dare people resent us for that? America has the right to intrude elsewhere if it thinks elsewhere needs intruding. It has the absolute right to plant the juggernaut boot of its influence in any culture or society, despite the impact on that socio-economic system and the culture, because it stands for Freedom and Goodness.
Just because you happen to do something good some of the time while you bluster about exporting your global dominance, does not mean you aren't blustering about. Enough blustering makes others suspicious, even when your motives are pure. And you guys believe me, I have had a real direct taste of how impure the government's motives can be, and how little people in America know about it.
As is the case with all generalizations, there is a thread of truth behind the overgeneralization about American stupidity. Americans have perhaps the broadest access to information in the world, yet they seem to know less about the rest of the world than the citizenries of other countries. Americans generally have an attitude that the rest of the world is either just sort-of sitting around waiting to be Americanized, or scrambling to be more like America. America tends to see itself as the center of the world, and appears to be largely or completely unaware that it has a very specific culture, distinct in many ways from the cultures of other peoples, which those other peoples may or may not choose to emulate in whole or in part. Understandably, citizens of other countries tend to resent that attitude.
Certainly there are elements of the American political-economic system that others can benfit from. I don't mean to suggest otherwise. But we tend to ram it down other peoples' throats without even realizing it. Part of the old Manifest Destiny attitude whence we were spawned. Our product is freedom, yet we ironically attempt to propagate that freedom by frequently engaging in acts which smell suspiciously like a complete disregard for the sovereignty and rights to self-determination of other peoples, and a complete lack of awareness, or even outright contempt, for socio-economi-cultural systems that are radically different from our own.
That's why all the hatred.
Unbelievably outrageous! I'm so upset right now I can't even think of a worthwhile response! This is without question a complete lack of regard for the hardworking peoples in this country who break their backs daily so that people like you can sit around and cry foulplay of the worst ignorance!
|
|
blu
Hired Hero
The Ultimate Party-Pooper
|
|
posted January 02, 2004 12:27 AM |
|
|
Funny.
____________
One time I hurt sat but down really fast. Now my butt down hurts when I say down.
I think im under the influence...
|
|
Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
|
|
posted January 02, 2004 12:33 AM |
|
|
Consis, I really didn't mean it that way and I'm so sorry I upset you.
You must know I have read this whole thread and thought many of your posts made some of the best points. What I am relaying here is a mindset, one that I have experienced personally many times in my life. But not always. But if people want to know the answer to the question, that's the mindset whence the "hatred" arises.
I too have a great deal of respect for the peoples of this country, the hard-working ones as well as the downtrodden ones. Individuals who live in this society are largely innocent of the thing of which I am speaking -- the trajectory is the national entity itself. The people within that entity know what they are taught and told. Thus the thing perpatuates itself without most of us even knowing it.
Americans live in a huge place and are insulated from things nonAmerican. I have always believed, based on the human individuals I know around me who are caring and good and who become outraged when they learn of the things of which I speak, that if Americans really knew what was going on they would never stand for it. I am one of those hard-working Americans I sounded to be so hard on. Frankly I cannot see where in my post you found a direct attack on hard-working folks, but my views are frequently seen as extreme by others and so maybe I overstated and gave you the wrong impression. I am the product of sodbusters and Indians, and you won't find any that are crustier than me. I try as I age to get better at being soft in relaying some pretty hard views!
Sorry to have so upset you my friend. I really, really did NOT mean it thataways. What we're talking about here is perceptions. This particular perception,whether it is accurate or not, is the answer to the original question.
BTW -- something I forgot in my first post here. I was in the Department of Law in my state for ten years during the Clinton Administration. I represented the Departments of Health and Human Services. I witnessed first-hand how Clinton's reforms actually cut an enormous amount of government spending when he passed legislation merging those two agencies. And there were other reforms affecting multiple government agencies that, well, made us all work a bit harder, but were incredibly efficient and well-reasoned reforms. So from that perspective of being in the trenches as it were, all the Clinton-bashing about what a terrible president he was were nonsense. He may have been a bit of a bonehead in international relations, but his domestic government programs were firing on all eight as far as I'ms concerned.
P.S. Wolfman, why doesn't the end of the cold war make a difference? (I SEE A **** STORM COMING WITH THAT ONE!)
____________
I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted January 02, 2004 01:00 AM |
|
|
Most of that may be true, but the fact remains that many people speak without thinking, ever. Europeans and Americans alike, it seems to be mostly America vs. Europe in these threads (EX: Me vs. PH)
Most of the people who I see on TV and such, don't have a clue. Sometimes it seems like Jay Leno's "Jay Walking", where he goes around the streets of he city and asks people simple questions. Sometimes I am almost ashamed to be in the same country as these people! But still, they are just uneducated and Jay Leno knows it, that's why he talks to them.
The majority of Americans, I would like to think, have some idea of what goes on in the world. But only the stupid ones get on TV most of the time. Or on those "reality"TV shows, the producers get a nice mix of stupid people and inteligent people. Unfortunatly, the stupid people are too stupid and vote off the people who have a clue about what's going on. In general, people are stupid. It' doesn't matter where they're from.
You can't critisize Bush for choking on a pretzel, Lews, that's completly childish.
PM, that is why "the hatred" right on. Perseptions Consis...
____________
|
|
consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted January 02, 2004 02:12 AM |
|
|
Thoughts Finally Gathered
After much deliberation(with my own ideals) and pacing about my kitchen deciding whether or not to eat the apple or the orange(pun intended) I have finally calmed myself back to the point of rational thought.
Wolfman, indeed it did seem to be something that might not have been well thought of before it was posted but that is beside the point.
While trampling my poor kitchen floor I argued over and over with 90% of the post. One sentence would end and the next would start, revitalizing my core belief arguments. But for all my nit-picking and disagreement I found my rebuttals were meaningless and overlooking the broader and more important perspective.
I have decided that the issue here with your post ,Peacemaker, is one of idealism.
In this country we call a democracy(in which PrivateHudson will be the first to point its inconsistencies with the textbook definition of the word) some people are leaders and some people are followers. I'll not include the independents in order not to stray from the main focus of my response to the post. It is the expressed duty of the leader to consider things of importance pertaining to the follower and vice versa. In other words, they should look out for each other's interests if they want to further their own. Does this always happen in this country? No it doesn't. Your personal experiences neglect to regard a consideration for the relationship I just described.
Alright enough beating about the bush here is the question. A question you say? Indeed, and not an answer.
The quintessential debate that can never be predicted when playing the role of a leader. Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? More questions:
1. If I were a top leader in a government what would I do, how would I respond.
2. If I were the follower that voted either for or against my government what would I do, how would I respond?
3. Do my needs or my children's needs or even my country's needs outweigh the rest of the world's needs? Which needs come first?
4. What ties the bond between myself and the rest of humanity?
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
|
|
Shadowcaster
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Shaded Scribe
|
|
posted January 02, 2004 03:30 AM |
|
|
I see truth in foreigners' generalizations about America and its pride, but there is a fine line between generalizing and stereotyping. People seem a bit hasty in forming their conclusions about Americans, and those same people accuse Americans of a lack of knowledge about, patience with, and understanding of other countries that they may very well be suffering from as well.
____________
>_>
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted January 02, 2004 03:33 AM |
|
|
We agree then Shadowcaster. I thought that, but you have put words to my ideas. I'm still trying to digest Consis' post.
____________
|
|
Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
|
|
posted January 02, 2004 03:46 AM |
|
|
|
Pacemakers first post here recently explained it well. Funny irony though, you wonder why some of us feel as we do against americans and then when PM describes it well you defend yourselves with exact that "we are right, of course we are right. We are America." attitude again...
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
