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Peacemaker
Honorable
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Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted February 29, 2004 05:51 PM |
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Having visited countries throught both Eastern and Western Europe, and after having broad exposure to a large Muslim constiency in my college for over five years and coming to know many close friends from the Middle East, I would like to suggest to all of you that the sentiments expressed in Svarog's post above should be taken seriously as a representation of sentiments about Americans that are common throughout the world.
Please note what I am saying here. I am not suggesting his perception, or which if any parts thereof, are either right or wrong. I am suggesting that his statements represent the sentiments of many, many people from all over the world whom I have come to know.
Now, you "fellow Americans," if your interest is really in finding out "why the hatred," if you really want to know why he and others feel the way they do, then avoid attacking his position and getting defensive about which parts of his perception you disagree with, and instead let him (and others) explain for themselves why they think/feel/believe what they do.
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Pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 01, 2004 10:05 AM |
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Edited By: Pitsu on 1 Mar 2004
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There are already several good replays, which I very much agree with, about the hatred. I would add/reformulate some, which I see as potentiall causes. Note, that they all are not my personal opinions.
Uncontrollable power. Recent events have shown that even long-time allies can do little to change US in his decisions. People and countries that so far believed in US listening to them, feel betrayed. And not only. Though, there is no reason for US to attack any European country, why should Europeans feel safer than about North Korea? Yes, right, US is democratic and easier to communicate than North Korea. However, if in global acts both are, in fact, controlled only by their own leaders, they both are potentially dangerous. Contra-reaction is kind of expected, isn't it.
Annoyance. America is everywhere: in newspapers, cinema, on streets (if in no other, then in McDonalds shape). Even spam in your mailbox is mainly US oriented. US can produce and sell his products (including culture and life-styles) fairly well. Those who are interested in the original products of their home countries do not love this success. Therefore they fight back.
Democracy. Many can ask what is wrong with the democracy in US. The opposition to Iraq war was strong among world countries. Somehow I have got feeling that more countries opposed this war than supported. If so, a democratic country should have followed the votes of majority.
Talented pupil. Like sometimes it is difficult for a teacher to admit that student is smarter and knows more than he, the countries with long history might not be happy to see a new country to be better than they. I do not think this is a reason for hate, but it may add up to other things and enhance it.
Weirdness. That is funny and is certainly not a main reason for dislike. Like many countries also US has some sort of weirdness. How could someone prefer to use inch over centimetre or football to soccer?  . Come one those people must all be crazy!  Please note that this is not my opinion, but that seems to reasoning of some people who I have met. Myself cannot believe that anybody can be blamed on such reasons, but they seem to add something to misunderstandings between Americans and some others.
Nationalism. I would say that a solid reason is nationalism. There are nationalists and international people in every country. However, if a Zambian starts like “my country is the best in the world (we did not invent the telephone, but a Zambian was the one millionth telephone user in world history)” you can just laugh. If an American starts to prise his/her country and also uses relevant facts, people from most countries cannot laugh but must ask “why do you tell it to me? Do you want to point how bad we are compared to you in this particular field?”
*thoughts now how to say it without offending anybody * If you, Americans, want to decrease the hate, I would suggest you not to show up your nationality if it is not really important until the world cools down. In begin of this thread was a discussion about flags and burning of them. I completely agree that a flag is a symbol. And as you know symbols are meant to possess some powers. Priest likes crucifix, but vampire cannot stand it. Red hearth enhances feelings of lovers, but may hurt abandoned one. Red flag makes Lenin happy but bulls mad. This in mind, I would think once more before putting a symbol into my signature, if the reader may get negative emotions from it.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 02, 2004 12:02 AM |
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Pitsu
 I just want to say that I very much enjoyed reading your post Pitsu. Thankyou for your contributive thoughts. I felt your post was well-thought-of and deeply detailed. I like the wide range of directions you talked about. It was a good post to read
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Wolfman
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posted March 02, 2004 12:13 AM |
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Good points, however I will keep my signature the way it is. Yes that's right Consis, MY signature!
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 02, 2004 10:15 PM |
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I don’t get it. You, Wolfman and Consis, always react emotionally when someone “bashes” your country, but now when this guy tells some suspicious reasons, you both agree with him.
Sorry, but I have to say that I disagree that most people dislike USA because of the reasons Pitsu mentioned. I find most of them unreal and claim that the reason for the hatred is something different. But let’s go one by one. [Note that when I say “I think”, I mean “I believe most people that dislike the US think”.]
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Though, there is no reason for US to attack any European country, why should Europeans feel safer than about North Korea? Yes, right, US is democratic and easier to communicate than North Korea. However, if in global acts both are, in fact, controlled only by their own leaders, they both are potentially dangerous.
Uncontrollable power. It’s absolutely wrong to say that Europeans fear USA militarily. And there is BIG difference between USA and N Korea. Also, I don’t think Bush is uncontrollable and can do whatever he wants. The problem is he has the majority’s support for what he does.
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Annoyance. America is everywhere: in newspapers, cinema, on streets (if in no other, then in McDonalds shape)…. Those who are interested in the original products of their home countries do not love this success.
It’s true that USA is commercially dominant, but I disagree that the problem is in the dominance itself. I don’t think people are jealous of America. It’s just the way Americans aggressively try to impose themselves on the world. Commercialization of practically everything that exists has its roots deep into American soil. And it spreads all over the world like a weed. Perhaps dominance is a factor, but it only makes American ill-points to be widely known. It’s not the core reason itself.
Democracy. To claim that US democracy doesn’t function is ridiculous and something that most people would disagree with.
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Talented pupil. Like sometimes it is difficult for a teacher to admit that student is smarter and knows more than he, the countries with long history might not be happy to see a new country to be better than they.
Again, why would other countries be jealous? Why don’t people hate newly founded Australia or Canada, or economically developed Switzerland or Sweden? It’s no talented pupil here, but pupil with a bad attitude.
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How could someone prefer to use inch over centimetre or football to soccer? . Come one those people must all be crazy!
This is so not true. How many more countries are there which are hell lot weirder than USA, concerning customs and traditions? Almost all. Plus, the spreadness of American and Western culture makes other people feel it so known and close, that it’s more factor of likeness than dislikeness.
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Nationalism…. If an American starts to prise his/her country and also uses relevant facts, people from most countries cannot laugh but must ask “why do you tell it to me? Do you want to point how bad we are compared to you in this particular field?”
Other countries don’t feel inferior to US. On the contrary, many think they are superior in many ways (except economically), and that’s why they get so nervous when Americans show their arrogance. In your entire post you seem to be saying that USA is hated because it’s the best and others are just jealous. This is typically American point of view (btw, where were you from) and only contributes to the general hatred.
Nationalism, as you also agreed, is everywhere. So, Wolfman, don’t even think of getting rid of that flag. We don’t mind that, but what the world minds is the arrogant “We are the best” attitude most Americans have. Oh, and the fact that in 95% of American movies there are scenes with the US flag proudly waving.
And just to cheer things up at the end:
“Red flag makes Lenin happy but bulls mad.”
LOL!!! That’s a good 1.
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Peacemaker
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Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 02, 2004 10:27 PM |
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Hey Svarog! Whatsup dude?
Maybe these guys were just trying to let the man talk, just like I suggested we all do in my post above. I can be very persuasive you know!!! 
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Svarog
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posted March 02, 2004 10:35 PM |
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So that's a positive sign that Americans are improving. Oh I see!
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Peacemaker
Honorable
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Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 02, 2004 10:40 PM |
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Okay. What gives with the blank IM's?
<EDIT: Note that this post was originally intended to be a separate thread and I must have hit the wrong button or something. The post has been removed to a new thread to be deleted as soon as somebody comes up with the appropriate conspiracy/martian/greenhouse effect/whatever theory that satisfies either my curiosity or my sense of humor....>
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privatehudson
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posted March 03, 2004 01:54 AM |
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I think it happens when you get an IM normally from someone when say, you enter the other side forum. Then if you refresh the page it sends a duplicate IM, the ghost one.
Note "think".
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Consis
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posted March 03, 2004 07:44 AM |
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Exploration Of Thought
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Maybe these guys were just trying to let the man talk, just like I suggested we all do in my post above. I can be very persuasive you know!!!
LoL Peacemaker this may sting a bit but it's for your own good: Don't flatter yourself
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Svarog,
To answer your question as to why I personally felt his post was good despite the subject matter he touches on, it is because of his wide range of thought exploration. He did not take a single approach and try to hit home with the idea. He didn't try to drive it aggressively into our minds. I felt he was almost talking to himself, trying to answer his own questions. I very much like his train of thought because I do this many times. I felt he tried to look at as many answers as possible without automatically ruling them out before starting. I like that. I feel he has the mind of a scientist. I also feel he is not afraid to explore many possibilities even if the one answer stares him straight in the eye. It's what I call, being "open-minded".
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Pitsu
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 03, 2004 04:23 PM |
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It’s absolutely wrong to say that Europeans fear USA militarily. And there is BIG difference between USA and N Korea. Also, I don’t think Bush is uncontrollable and can do whatever he wants.
Agree that Europa does not fear US militarly. And if nothing else then at least oil companies have control over Bush . However, if you say to a friend that, please, do not beat Jim’s face up and he still does it, do you like it? Or do you find a neighbour who grabs axe and destroys everything in his way when bitted by a wasp? That is with the uncontrollable power – you do not have to fear it directly, but it does not satisfy you either. Dissatisfaction on its turn is a major contributor of all bad feelings.
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Democracy. To claim that US democracy doesn’t function is ridiculous and something that most people would disagree with.
Very likely “most people” disagree with me. But for the rest (either misguided by anti-American propaganda or not) it may be a reason.
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Again, why would other countries be jealous? Why don’t people hate newly founded Australia or Canada, or economically developed Switzerland or Sweden? It’s no talented pupil here, but pupil with a bad attitude.
You may be correct here. It was just an idea and I know that my thoughts are sometimes very wrong. Though, jealousy is a very common feeling. Almost as common as claims “no, I am not jealous at all! Never!”
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This is so not true. How many more countries are there which are hell lot weirder than USA, concerning customs and traditions? Almost all. Plus, the spreadness of American and Western culture makes other people feel it so known and close, that it’s more factor of likeness than dislikeness.
I agree that there are many more weird cultures, but I do not agree that spreadness makes it feel close to people. At least do not count me in! No more than one cowboy movie per life . The problem is that from US it is more difficult to look pass if you dislike its “weirdnesses”. For example: many people have to co-operate with US companies or deal with US and for example European market have much extra work because of different measuring systems.
On any reason it reminded me also that wasn’t there a space voyager, which was lost because one engineer used inch and others metric system? Do not remember was it an international one but if it would...
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Other countries don’t feel inferior to US. On the contrary, many think they are superior in many ways (except economically), and that’s why they get so nervous when Americans show their arrogance.
There are countries that are superior to US in many meanings. Just wish there are more countries with superior nerves. A truly superior country should not get nervous if an “arrogant pupil” behaves bad.
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In your entire post you seem to be saying that USA is hated because it’s the best and others are just jealous. This is typically American point of view (btw, where were you from) and only contributes to the general hatred.
Perhaps the post was a bit too pro-american. I have lived in California for a year and must say that I did not enjoy it very much. And Bush politics are very much against my believings. My post was really not meant to be either pro or contra, I just purposed some potential reasons. You know, after understanding the reasons behind hate, you may actually cool down. Angry man often brings lot of false reasons to feed (exactly feed) the anger, and does not want to find out the true cause. Btw I am from Estonia.
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what the world minds is the arrogant “We are the best” attitude most Americans have.
Sure, “we are the best” behaviour sucks. However, there are such people in many countries. I have not counted them, thus it maybe it is more common in US than elsewhere. don’t know. But I would also like to point that “they are arrogant” attitude does not sound very much better than “we are the best”.
Tell a pupil he is stupid without saying what he has done wrong, and it is damn hard for him to improve himself.
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Oh, and the fact that in 95% of American movies there are scenes with the US flag proudly waving.
Yes, that is awful. “Patriot” with Mel Gibson was obviously made within an anti-American campaign. How the heck did they dare to show it outside the US? And I have not looked for example at “Pearl Harbour” because of not being sure I will see a movie or only propaganda. However, if US movies would be only 5% of the market it would be OK.
cheers to everyone!
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privatehudson
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posted March 03, 2004 07:11 PM |
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*mutters under his breath about Gibson's movies*
Believe me when I say that there's dozens of more reasons to pick holes in his films than flag waving
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Consis
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Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 03, 2004 09:18 PM |
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Robin of Lockesly (ye olde english hood)
PrivateHudson,
You must be very displeased at his protrayal of the English under King Longshanks. I agree that he did, indeed, paint the English as brutalistic and savage. Do I think it was a correct generalization? No. I agree with you my friend but the old tale, Robin Hood, still resonates today with a great many people. Why do I talk of Robin Hood? Because it was about robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. Many people believe the U.S. to be a very rich country and many think that is a self-defining trait that paints us as greedy much like the English royalty in the Robin Hood story and the Braveheart film. Perhaps this slight tangent I've touched on does, in some way, relate to this thread.
Americans are being called many things like greedy, imperialistic, and arrogant. These are the same traits that one might usually see in the Robin Hood and Braveheart films' portrayal of the English government. Just as you have said before. These problems seem to come with the title of any such nation.
Being an economic or militaristic superpower might, as you also have said, create certain expectations of that nation that weren't there before. The old, "If you are so powerful then help me with my country's problems" - belief. I believe there were just as many people that felt the same about the British empire a while back.
Hmm....
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 03, 2004 10:15 PM |
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Consis:Quote:
LoL Peacemaker this may sting a bit but it's for your own good: Don't flatter yourself
ROFL TOO LATE I GUESS
(My smilies was intended to indicate I was joking... I was joking... wasn't I???)
On a more serious note, I find it odd that now non-Americans are disputing whether one another's posts are too pro-American... No doubt that many people have many different reasons for having anti-American feelings. But as your above posts would suggest, these are frequently accounts of the reasons people tend to have, or are aware that others have, not necessarily an attempt to justify how rational or not those sentiments are or claim they are universal. I mean, sometimes sentiments and experiences are shared and sometimes they differ wildly, depending on one's own and one's country's experience with another.
I for one am aware of a broad resentment in many countries (though not all) that America's export of "capitalism" has tied to it an export of American businesses and along with those businesses the culture itself (such as it is.) Americans tend to be unaware of other cultures distinct from their own, and that American-style business may or may no fit into a given culture. The fact that some cultures respond more positively to this influence than others does not make it true that those others aren't negatively affected.
So I guess the point here is that there may be many different experiences out there, each one being driven by the particulars of the culture at issue. That something is true for one culture does not mean that it will be true for others.
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Svarog
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statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 04, 2004 12:33 AM |
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“Why people hate the usa?
The flag. Many people don’t like the colours the American flag has. They think red is too strong and also there are too many stars on it. Because americans are so in love with their flag and don’t miss a chance to show it in their movies, other people hate USA.
Clinton. Many people around the world see ex-president Clinton willie-willie adventure with Miss Levinski as a horrible and extremely immoral act. The fact that he was the leader of USA and represented American values, made a lot of people to hate America.
American football. Refined Europeans find American football to be too rough to be called a sport. They think it’s barbaric and violent. They are especially pissed off because Americans stole the word “football” and now spoil the word itself. Therefore, they hate all Americans that play American football.
Computer viruses. Do you know how many people get viruses from the Net, that destroy their favourite games and pics? Many. And who “invented” the Internet? Americans again. That’s another reason why Americans are hated. Well, that’s not the main reason, but it is a factor.”
Ok. Everybody, I know you must be cursing me now, but it’s not me. Consis, this is just an example of the so called “open-mindness” you were talking about. Was I open-minded in this text? Was I exploring possibilities, as you say?
I think not. What I wrote was a stupid letter, stating reasons that I don’t believe in and are not well thought and backed up by logic or basic reasoning.
Open-mindness is not about saying ill-thought statements, it is about thinking about new ideas and deciding whether to agree or not with somebody. Oh well, at least that’s what i think.
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I wrote this offline, and when I came here, didnt want to throw it away, so i sent it. I have a point I want Consis to see. But i owe Pitsu an answer and the rest of you. Patience, dear, patience.
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privatehudson
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posted March 04, 2004 12:49 AM |
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Quote:
You must be very displeased at his protrayal of the English under King Longshanks. I agree that he did, indeed, paint the English as brutalistic and savage.
And indeed, directly infers that the British royalty are descended from Wallace himself by having him and the French queen make love. Soon after Wallace died, she gave birth to a son who became the next king eventually. Given the fact that we know almost certainly that Edward II (longshank's son who's the foppish prince of wales in the movie) was almost certainly homosexual, the movie leaves you with the impression that history knows that the english monarchy descends from Wallace. Total tripe.
That and the battle scenes bear little resemblance to real life. Stirling in the movie is not the full title of the battle. It's full title is Stirling Bridge for very good reasons too. The British lost because of a bridge and arrogance, not at all like Braveheart really.
As for the portrayal of the English, in Longshanks and Edward II it's pretty accurate from what we know. Longshanks was after all known as "The hammer of the Scots" and had repeatedly conquered both Scotland and Wales. He was also known for being quite brutal in general. Edward II they're not absolutely sure was homosexual, but his wife hated him with a passion and said he was hopeless in bed and he repeatedly promoted young male friends to high office during his reign only to have the other nobles force the said friend out of power in jealousy. One of those events lead to his death. The nobles rose in anger and his wife helped imprison him. She later gave his death order, by shoving a red-hot poker up his anus!  She then ruled with a lord as regent until her son took power I think.
The problem is though that the other English are portrayed as either stupid, insane or psychotic or all of the above. The scots on the other hand literally get away with murder. When the english loot a scotish village and kill Wallace's wife, the time spent on the scene is immense. When the Scots cross the border and loot and pillage an English town, the matter is hardly mentioned. No remarks about the bloody act, nothing. The english are made to look unjustified nazis basically. Nothing was said about the reason why the English were in Scotland in the first place, ie the Scots had been raiding and pillaging Northern England for centuries, the English finally decided to do something about it. By extension, the English become unjustified murderers and rapists, the scots, the innocent avenging angels. Scots action is justified or washed over. English is made on par with Hitler.
I'm not for a moment justifying the English nobles attitude in scotland or their actions, but the movie goes out of it's way to defend the actions of the Scots, brushes their hatred off as natural (in the Irish example, he joins mainly to kill the english and this is seen to be amusing/acceptable), the english on the other hand have no such explanations. No logic is offered for the English, no attempt is made to justify their actions or defend their cause.
That's what makes the portrayal bad, not the accuracy directly, but the bias on the actions and lack of explanations. It's the impression it creates by inference based on no proof. It's many things, and it's very anti-english in that respect.
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Being an economic or militaristic superpower might, as you also have said, create certain expectations of that nation that weren't there before. The old, "If you are so powerful then help me with my country's problems" - belief. I believe there were just as many people that felt the same about the British empire a while back.
I have long pointed to this factor with Americans. This atttitude is nothing new, it has been the attitude the world took with the British Empire, the Roman Empire, alexander and so on. Perfection has not and cannot be reached realistically, so people will always complain. It has less to do with anti-american attitudes and more to do with people being annoyed that they don't get help in some people's mindsets.
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American football. Refined Europeans find American football to be too rough to be called a sport. They think it’s barbaric and violent. They are especially pissed off because Americans stole the word “football” and now spoil the word itself. Therefore, they hate all Americans that play American football.
Hmm, that won't be all european nations, for example, Rugby played in western europe a lot is not disimilar to American Football (indeed, it's full name is Rugby football) and is about as violent, just without the body armour. We europeans are made of sterner stuff it seems
However we in England certainly don't like having to explain to americans that Football is what they call "Soccer". It's FOOTBALL DAMN YOU! We invented our game rules first, we get the name
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Wolfman
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posted March 04, 2004 01:19 AM |
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Are the rugby players as dumb as American football players? Professional that is...
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Consis
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posted March 04, 2004 11:34 AM |
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LoL !
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It's FOOTBALL DAMN YOU! We invented our game rules first, we get the name
Rofl! This is killing me with laughter! LoL! Hella funny! Hehehehehe, hahahahahaha!
Okay Okay, I officially give you back your name! We'll rename ours to, "Braindamage for money". Promise
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angelito
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posted March 04, 2004 03:18 PM |
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I have to agree here with PH.
Football in the "old" world is mostly played with "FOOT"....so the name for the game makes a little sense...
...in contrast to "american football"....
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privatehudson
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posted March 04, 2004 07:43 PM |
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No different from French Fries (which are said to come from Belgium originally) and Hamburgers (no ham)
(That's a JOKE before anyone lays into me)
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This thread is pages long: 
