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| Thread: All the unrealism in HOMMs |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted April 08, 2001 11:38 AM |
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Think...
U want to make moement points for units, but think about this: if a hydra is slow, it doesn't mean it can't go long distances, and that applies to most of HOMM's creatures, so I'd suggest that if there would be movement points for units, then let them to be more than the hero's movement, so that at least 2 hero chains could exist, because if it would be done differently it wouldn't be fair because if my weak hero got some units and I want him to give them to the strong hero, I go to the strong hero and reach him on the last step, give him the units and then BAH! all of the movement points of the strong hero are gone, and I needed the strong hero to conquer his town back the last day so that I won't lose the game.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted April 08, 2001 01:24 PM |
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Sigh
There are both good and bad things about chaining and I can agree with both views. It is unrealistic for an army to move 100 hexes in one day just because their commander switched over, but that doesn't mean it should be eliminated. Chaining is a difficult strategy to implement in large maps, but once chained, it can easily be broken by use of a quick scout with a few level 5's. What do I reckon? I think an interchange between heroes should contain some sort of penalty, perhaps a loss of morale (any army that had to be force marched for 100 hexes in one day is bound to be demoralized and in poor shape for battle). Both heroes should have their remaining movement points HALVED for the rest of the day if troops are exchanged. That way, chaining is not a 'free reign' sort of thing. BTW what's the point in having rivers in Heroes if your hero can just walk over them at any given point? If they're only there for decoration, get rid of them. A river is a very important map feature and the use of bridges as crossing points could create a whole new dimension to 'mobile garrisons'. I'm all for the realism, especially graphics-wise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that realism=no fun.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 08, 2001 01:50 PM |
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Ahhh Mystery... U think: hero on a horse and a hydra. Who can travel further in one day? And you want hydra to travel twice as much as hero on a horse in one day? That by simple calculations means that hydra is twice as fast as hero on a horse, as in distance/time = speed  Hydras are hydras cause they are SLOW. They wouldn't be hydras otherwise. So if you want that powerful troops there are some limitations and only this is proper I think. Do we want a simple game either? Thinking and challenge is what keeps us coming for more.
You know KB, there if all troops could fly, they would carry the hero, this should work since there's only 1 hero and a horse, not too much to carry. Hehe, unless there is one sprite to carry hero + horse + balista, etc, hehehe  Could be solved like this: if flying troops quantity x flying troops level = 30 or more, than the hero can fly. But that would threat mapmaking... then how about flying over forests or water (land in the end of turn), but not over mountains.
And... what if there are no creatures at all, MWUAHAHAHA!!!
Oh well, good nite
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 09, 2001 09:57 PM |
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tests about this
Valerie: So you are saying that if hero have left 1 or 2 movement points, and he transferes his ARMY to another one - then the other one should have maximum 1 or 2 points left. Could you tell me how this can be handled without errors?
Let i have 50 movement points. And I have Dendroids and Archangels. Let dendroinds have 3 movement points and Archangles 20 (don't know if this is correct now). And maximum moving point for creature is 30. So I have
50-(30 - 3) = 23 movement points. I've moved 10 points and I'm giving my dendroid soldiers to somebody else. How much my dendroid soldiers spent? could you tell me?
Let the other hero is the same as first one, it again haves 23 movement points. I'm giving him the dendroids when first one was moved for 10 points. But then I'm taking again them - why not - just moving a little bit around and taking them - who knows? if these were not dendroid soldiers but slow archers and I don't wanna lose them in fight in castle - and temporarily gave them to another hero? How this can be handled. And then after I took them back - why the other one hero have to be slowed.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 09, 2001 11:51 PM |
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Here's how it works
The concept in the game right now is: hero moves at the speed of his slowest troop. So with phoenix hero can move say 15 hexes, with a deneroid and phoenix only 10 or so.
Here's the explanation of the H4 idea:
Hero 1 has 30 movement points
Hero 2 has 30 movement points
(they are newbie heroes who haven't improved their movement yet)
Phoenix has 60 movement points (which is around the maximum)
Deneroid has 20 movement points
So if hero 1 has both the phoenix and the deneroid, he can move only 20 movement points, because that's how far a deneroid can travel in a day.
Let's say hero 1 meets hero two just as he has spent his 20 movement points. Deneroids can't travel any further. But phoenix has another 40 movement points left, so hero 2 takes phoenix and travels 30 movement points (hero is the slowest in that army, because phoenix is so fast). In the end phoenix still has 10 movement points left, but can't travel any more since the hero has spent his movement points.
As you see fast troops can be sort of chained, but it's reasonable since they have a clear limit of getting tired for the day after a certain distance. Nothing can travel with 4 heroes in a day across half map.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2001 01:02 AM |
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Simpler explanation of the problem
Let have two heroes - A and B,
Hero B didn't move this turn. He is near a enemy castle.
Hero A have some non-upgraded archers and he don't want to lose them - he gave them temporarily to Hero B. Hero B also have some non-uprgaded archers - Let's say he hass all his 7 positions filled with non-upgraded archers.
After Hero A gave his archers temporarily to Hero B, he attacks the town - he win or loses, and then he is taking his non-upgraded archers from Hero B.
Now comes Hero B to move. Why should he lose movement points, if he never moved? Doesn't make sense - even it's more unrealistic than what you are proposing. Imagine by error you combined all archer-troops into one (he was having 7 separated units of archers) - then you want to gave all archers to Hero A, and leave only one archer with you - can you say - was this archer moving before or not?
And did you think about the A.I. - it will become more complex - then more time to think, and think not so good. The best AI was found in Heroes1, and Heroes2 - because there were more simpler rules.
Also overall the idea of losing movement points increases game play - Why you should take some map for 7 months, instead you can do it for 5. Remmember when in Heroes3 they've put the idea that only first-two hired town heroes have enough army - this is good (i like it!) - but this really increased the time spent on taking the game.
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 10, 2001 01:39 AM |
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Calculations
The calculations can be done...the idea of the game without hero chains and with movement points for creatures is fine.
But I have played other games, and you know why heroes is the best? Because it is so playable and fast-paced for a turn-based game...while remaining somewhat realistic.
Yes, there are some things that are unrealistic, and I would like them changed. Movement is one of them. I'm just making sure that we all understand that it should be more of a priorty to have a fun, fast-paced game that has hours of replay action.
I remember warlords II that was such a great game. But then warlords III came out they really tried to add too much and ruined the game completely? Where is warlords right now? Nowhere...
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 11, 2001 12:22 PM |
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From the newly released h4 info. Now heroes can fight and creatures can move without heroes. So, could hero chain still exist in h4 (or maybe creature chain ???  
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 11, 2001 01:10 PM |
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um if creatures can move independantly they will be able to move only a certain distants so monster chaining would/should be in impossible
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 15, 2001 11:02 AM |
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Hero-chains
I am surprised and terrified by the number of people defending hero-chains. I totally agree with Valeryi that movement points should be given to stacks. Not only is this more realistic but I don't like the carefully positioning of heroes to start and update a hero chain. It is just no fun. I already used the hero-chaining in Heroes 2 after I just got it. First I was content that I invented this tactic myself, but now it bores the hell out of me. Also I especially find the 'keep the game simple' posts frightening. Come on, Heroes is a turn based strategy game. More complexity and depth just adds fun to the game. I wonder what these posters would like to see in Heroes 4. I guess they would be content with a few more towns and units and better graphics (a facelift of H3). For me that just won't do. I want more complexity and depth in the game. So I can invent new strategies and try to outsmart the AI or an opponent.
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lovedoc
Hired Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 12:40 PM |
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Change your point of view
The movement in Heroes I - III were just fine! No need to badmouth that! A little unrealistic yeah! But not directly annoying! Simple and easy understood! And that´s what makes a game worth something. Things that are easy to understand and deal with and stuff you are able to COUNT, not having to be dependant on something called random factor or faith.
What they actually COULD implement is that say you have an army consting of Black Dragons only. Then of course you would travel faster because they have a relative speed of 15. And you were actually traveling faster with an army of Dragons, Arch-Devils and so on, depending on terrain. The implementation however would be that, why the could you not fly over a mountain when acompanjed by a bunch of flying creatures. I find the whole idea you the hero riding on a horse in front and hundreds of Dragons and so on being forced to drag their @sses in the mud behind him/her. Silly yes! But practical since there´d be too much "unfairness" if people would be able to fly over mountains at will. Maybe adding extra time flying over obstacles or having to fight some mountain monsters, why not camp up on the friggin´ mountains over night. Anything. Just to prove that every post deserves an answer even obvious ones...
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Life´s a snow and then you marry one...
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 15, 2001 01:07 PM |
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I would think that movement points for creatures seem logical and is therefore is very easy to understand. Also it is used in a lot of similar games!
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Tc_Fear
Famous Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 01:42 PM |
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And about the moving points - it sucs becouse you'll never travel with weak creatures(such as pikman,peasant and so on) .I would beter drop them out.
Tc_Fear
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'the only thing necessery for the triumph of evel is for good men to do nothing'
Edmund Burke
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lovedoc
Hired Hero
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posted May 15, 2001 01:51 PM |
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Complicated!
Yes. But let those game keep their ideas for themselves. There is NOTHING that frustrates gamers so much as to change a winning concept.
If every creature should have specific movement points, then every creature should be viewed individually. Which means that one unicorn might be more tired than another unicorn and before you know it we´d have a whole bunch of small polygon figures running around on the battle field, making it hard for the player to decide where to focus his action and after the battle is lost he/she sits down to wonder what happened to the simple turn-based, never-more-then-16-units-on-screen-at-a-time combat.
See what complicated changes small ideas might lead too!
Of course there could be like an OVERALL for each stack, like 94 unicorn of which seven are tired, 13 are very tired and so on, and their movement points go down with like 30 % or something like when they do 18-22 damage or something. But this has already been implemented in HOMM3 where the SLOWEST creature in your army determine your movement points (without any artifacts or locations visited!). And the skills like pathfinding, logistics and terrain. It has already been done, simplified but done. So drop it!
If you can´t let go of the idea then why not make it A LOT more complicated?! The faster units could like move ahead of your slower army or units. Like your Black Dragons will move ahead and do something. They wouldn´t be able to do anything else then scout and destroy wandering monsters. And when on map, they would function as any other units standing there, with the exception that they will always join your hero(es)! Maybe even let them get a bit more hostile if they are left alone out there to long! And, they could breed on their own if they where placed on native terrain! A lot of great ideas, but hard to implement for sure!
That was my snowin´ for today! Keep up the good work!
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Life´s a snow and then you marry one...
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Rage
Adventuring Hero
Slipping Through the Trees
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posted May 15, 2001 09:32 PM |
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Exactly
Well since 3DO announced that creatures can move without heroes it seems logical that a hero could scout ahead and pick up resources whilst the slower troops head for a rendezvous point. Also when it comes to adding stacks together you should take the average movement between those stacks... Valera's idea seems very logical to me. So what's ur guy's problem?
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L8r
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted May 15, 2001 10:04 PM |
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If some people are so afraid of changes, why not just play Heroes 2 or 3? I want a new game to discover, not something that will make me feel smart and secure for a few days just because I already know how it works, and a game like that would only last a few months max. Why do you want a game to be simple and similar? Do you play games for a challenge or do you just want to win? Which one will keep you playing longer?
And as for the concept, I think it has already been implemented into the game. Since troops can walk by themselves, they gotta have movement points too. And they gotta spend them per day. So, case is closed it seems. We have a more realistic game. Although, flying troops picking up the hero issue remains.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted May 15, 2001 10:37 PM |
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About flying troops picking up the hero, I agree.
But there is one thing, it shouldn't be like if u have genies or angels they carry u, it's not logical, u can't ride on an angel. But instead, to give only certain castles this opportunity, there should be a building like the Stable only called something like Dragon Cave or Tower or something and there a visiting hero could buy himslef a dragon to ride on, plus this dragon will give advantage in battle, since heeroes can fight.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 16, 2001 06:31 AM |
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Some thoughts
It seems that the "new" movement system would be implemented in h4, that's cool coz we got something new to learn and have fun.
But I'm curious on some issues:
1). If flying units can move by themselves and even fly over mountains, then they "should" be able to cross the sea, then, could they "carry" heroes or even other troops across the sea ??? if so, what's the use of navigation, water walk and that sort of things ???
2). For heroes and creatures can move separately and fight separately. But heroes can gain exp. and level up upon fighting, how about creatures, would the idea of "creature experience" be implemented in h4 too ???
3). In h1 ~ h3, there are limits for nos of heros (max. 8) and hence limits for nos of troops (8 X 7 = 56). Now if heroes and creatures can move separately, would there still be limits on "total nos of stacks" allowed for each players???
In some games, like Age of Empire, there is also limit, but it is easy to "break" the limits (for those who had played AoE would know what I'm talking). If say there is a limit of 80 stacks (including heroes) in h4 and you have use up the limit and then could you split your troops any more ???
4). If there is no limit, then the speed of the game would be terribly slowed down as people can now send out a single creature just in every direction. This would be especially annoying in endgame.
Sorry for my poor English, hope you could get my points.
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Mordred
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 06:35 AM |
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Chaining should go... And the soulution is simple, when two heroes/stacks meet for an exchange then the % of movement they have remaing is set to the lowest of the two heroes/stacks.
For example, Hero1 has 20 movement points and meets up with Hero2 that has 10 movement, Hero1 had already spent 8 movement to meet up with hero2 (Hero1 now has 60% of movement remaining)... after the meet both Hero1 and Hero2 has 60% of movement remaining, 12 for Hero1 and 6 for Hero2.
Why? Let me explain...
John (Hero1) needs to meet up with Jane (Hero2) so that he may give her an artifact he recently found and pick up some reinforcements that she has for him. He sets off early in the morning and arrives where Jane has been WAITING for him just after midday. They make the exchange, and can now go off to do their various tasks until they need to make camp as night sets.
Note that if there were things that Jane(hero2) could do nearby her before she meets up with john(hero1) she could of, and if she used no more than 40% of her movement then there would of been no additional loss (If she was doing something to pass the time until John got there, instead of just sitting around waiting.) One other note, since hero's movement is based on the slowest creatures speed in their army, if the hero adds a creature during that day with a lower speed then the remaing movement should be penalized by the percent lower (Example: Before the hero had recruited the Dendroids he had 18 movement, afterwards he'd only have 12... that's only 2/3.... if he had only 9 remaing movement when he recruited the dendroids, he wouldn't lose 6 movement but instead be reduced to 2/3 current... 6), the same thing applies if the hero removes a slower troop during the turn (movement increases) or puts on/takes off an artifact that affects movement... or even increases in logistics skill. This will stop the cheating of leaving certain troops in a garrison at turn end to gain add'l movement for the next turn (then picking the troop up), or by switching artifact to gain movement at turn start then another benifit during the turn.
Well just my 2 cents.
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David
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 23, 2001 06:50 PM |
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Does anyone remember...
...the old game known as the Ancient Art of War?
That was one of the first games (if not the first one indeed) where you commanded an army which can move through a terrain.
There you have armies, not heroes, that were composed by just three types of units: Knights, Barbarians & Archers with a limit of up to 14 per army. There was no magic, but the combat play was pretty similar than to HOMM. You controled stacks (though they were represented individually) allowing to order specifics things like: fire, charge & retreat. I will try to scan a picture to show you how pretty similar is.
There you have differente types of movement: slow pace, normal pace and fast pace. If they moved slower they took more time to arrive to their location but they arrived more fresh, the opposite for fast pace. Obviously if they fight exhausted they had a lot less chances of doing well, but there were sometimes when you needed to to defend a fort or an strategic position. You could also join or split the armies.
It worked greatly, because of the limited number of units per army. But it also was almost 15 years ago, when faster computers ran at 4 MHz and had 640 Kb of RAM.
Now with 2 GHz and 128 Mb of RAM... anything is posible
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