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| Thread: All the unrealism in HOMMs |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 07, 2002 05:12 PM |
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So how about these chaining examples then...
Variant 1:
Bob leaves house to meet up with Nob. He arrives at the house but is attacked by a Titan and killed.
Nob goes out and brings in Bob's body and places him in a coffin. He then mounts his horse and drags the coffin behind him. He's getting exhausted but then reaches Gob's town where he pays a visit to the chapel and resurrects Bob.
Bob, Gob and Nob then uses the CD in Bob's pocket to play.
In this example, the meeting would not have been possible if the Titan had not killed Bob, because he did not have enough Movement to reach Gob's town so had he been alive they would not have reached Gob's town.
The conclusion of this is that it's easier to bring along the dead than the living.
Variant 2:
Bob and Nob leaves house to meet with each other. They meet up and then continue to Gob's house. They can barely move a step further when they meet a Titan. The Titan kills Bob before he can react, but Nob flees with Bob's body... And ends up in Gob's town. Bob is resurrected and Bob, Gob and Nob uses the CD in Bob's pocket to play.
The conclusion of this is that fleeing heroes are not affected by distance and have almost unlimited movement no matter how tired they are. Fear is a potent tool to get Heroes moving. Also Cowardice displayed by the Hero is of much less importance than Fear of the Enemy.
Variant 3:
Bob and Nob leaves house to meet with each other. They meet up and then continue to Gob's house. They can barely move a step further when they meet a Leprechaun. Bob wants to catch the Leprechaun and get some XP and perhaps some gems, but Nob persuades him that if they instead tell the people in Gob's town that they faced a Titan then they can reach Gob's town today and keep their honour. So they flee... And ends up in Gob's town. Nob and Bob tell their tale to the citizens in Gob's town and then Bob, Gob and Nob uses the CD in Bob's pocket to play.
The conclusion of this is that little green men can be formidable opponents.
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 17, 2002 03:59 PM |
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I think that they way movement was implemented now in HOMM4 is quite ok.
Although instead of the caravan structure (WAY too tedious) I would have gone with an adventure spell like windwalk to make the armies with a hero regain a part of their movement points (and limiting the casting to several times per day depending on mastery).
For example, no air mastery - cast once, regain 10% basic air mastery - cast twice per day, regain 20% of initial movement points of the army; grandmaster air - cast three times a day, regain 50% of initial movement. Make it cost ~ 20-30 spell points, so that it is not a used and abused spell, but makes for an interesting tactical solution.
This would speed up the game as well.
Also, creatures should not be able to do anything more than scout the map on their own. Now it is way too easy to gather resources with them and that kills the tactical decisions like "Should I take this piece of crystal now or go fight for that artifact at once?" Just send a centaur and continue on your quest... Too easy.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 17, 2002 05:30 PM |
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Caravan structure eases up movement from creature dwellings to town. It's much more tedious to visit all of the dwellings.
I would like the Caravan feature to also affect Wandering armies, so you can caravan them to town.
Scouting only is a reasonable idea for creatures. The question that arises is how should you handle an army with a Tombstone (and no living Heroes)?
Making armies with only dead heroes virtually useless is perhaps not a good idea, so perhaps an army with a tombstone should be able to pick things up.
The alternative I can see is requiring each wandering army to contain at least one hero (tombstone or alive). So if you want to split the army you need two Heroes in the original army.
If you recruit creatures that wouldn't fit into your army (no free slots) it would be nice if you could Caravan them to the town of your choice. (Option available if you have a Town with a Caravan and a free path to it.)
Splitting out single creatures tends to lead to tedious gaming so it would be nice if it was made less beneficial.
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 18, 2002 04:07 PM |
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Djive,
you are probably right about the caravan - I am not that familiar with the usage.
I do not like the idea of fighting (or killable) heroes at all, but we have to face the game that is Anyway, a hero should be present, whether alive or dead, in a party for it to be able to pick up artifacts/resources.
Sending "overflow" creatures to town with the structure sounds like a good reason to build the caravan.
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2002 09:42 PM |
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its just dump to discuss about realism in a fantasy game.
it only makes sense in simulations and but some of u guys dont seem to get this.
Homm is fantasy - the WORST what can happen to a fantasy game is that it is realistic
Motorschaaf
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SigMa_pSi
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 24, 2002 05:54 AM |
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how can u really tal realism in this game anyway? no offense to anyone or anything at all but this post seems really redundant...
HOMM is a FANTASY/MAGIC game... unless u really believe there are thousands of goblins living out there in the world or the that real "magic" exists I don't anything else really matters...
And even though it is a game and it should be as fun as possible... stressing "realism" ironically does not make the game more fun for players but more dull...
Saying that HOMM4 should be realistic would be saying that all spells would be elimated... and all the creatures would be human-based fighters... would that be fun? I doubt it...
Realism is really a deluded observation of the human persception... and even if something minor like movement points isn't realistic... can you argue that the entire game is realistic?
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A teacher guides a student so that the student will be of greater skill than the teacher... everyone is a student, but those who think of themselves as greater than their teachers will eventually fall
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 12, 2003 10:01 AM |
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reviving an old thread with a discussion on chaining
i have a gut feeling that starting a long discussion on chaining in the Heroes Basic Concepts and Wishes end of page 1 is not a very good idea.
it's a never-ending debate unless someone comes up with a good solution.
on one hand the supporters of chaining may say things like 'end game is no-brainer and thus boring' or that 'travelling over a large map is boring like hell.'
on the other hand, the roleplayers say that 'chaining is absurd and is an exploit.'
imho both are right. maybe there could be a solution or maybe just a reasonable compromise possible? maybe the solution is not about movement at all, maybe it has something to do with the way you play end-game, or the creatures, or.. whatever?
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 12, 2003 06:44 PM |
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chaining is not an exploit
Chaining is fact of all wars fought anywhere and everywhere. If you all are referring to 'chaining' as the resupplying of the main force stretched a long distance far from it's home base of operations then it is absolutely not an exploit. A good example of just one 'chaining' instance lies in Russia's historic homeland defense. For ages ever since Russia has come into being a sovereign nation it has used the 'chaining' or resupplying of troops tactics to its advantage. They have historically held off many aggressors attacking them from the western front by repeated retreats allowing the agressor to extend their supply lines too far leading all the way back to places like Stalingrad. The supply line has now become the key military target in influencing the outcome of the battle. We all know that the Germans did the same thing ignoring history and extending the line of supplies all the way to Stalingrad. In doing so they fell victim to the historically unforgiving Russian winter which actually cut the supply line and ended it's ability to 'chain'. After the Russians over powered the Germans not through technology but through sheer numbers the German army found retreat to be as deadly as staying in the fight. The winter and the distance from Stalingrad to Berlin formed a devastating duo of frozen death that still commands respect today in our highly advanced information age.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 12, 2003 07:14 PM |
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Chaining is not about supply lines. Rather it counters supply lines.
The player doesn't have creatures spread out all over the place which can be replaced by other creatures. The troops in the players armies and garrisons are all the troops the player have.
What chaining does is NOT to allow the russians to get away in your example. What it does is to allow the Germans to Blitz your cities and then chain back their troops to their own territory, or possible to nearly any place within your territory. In practise chaining is used offensively to be able to reach nearly every corner of the map in one turn, not defensively to starve the attackers.
The tactics of the supply-line is only effective if the opponent have to use many turns to reach places.
In heroes the defensive player can cut off trailing scouts which would be used to relay reinforcements. But NOT if the attacker can reach almost any spot within 1 or two turns. (The result would then be that the army you used to wipe out the scout is wiped out by the opponents main army.)
Preventing chaining does the following:
It prevents stacks of creatures to travel obscene distances just because you moved them to another hero.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 12, 2003 07:27 PM |
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Possible Solution to Heroe Chaining
Even though my last reply was to help in the debate over unrealistic Heroe chaining I did not offer any solutions. I propose that the chaining tactic remain not with Heroes but with beast of burden-types of units. I think units like the mighty gorgon, ancient behemoth, and unicorn should have a special rating seperate from it's other abilities stating how far and how much it could carry. I think each unit should have a specialized rating defining how far it could logisticly support the main front in a heroes battle. I also think the logistic skill should have an area of effect. Thus we now should probably take away the logistics skill from a hero and give the option of taking logistics to one of your beast of burden units. I think a beast with a basic level of skill should increase the carrying and movement capacity only slightly while the expert logistics rating should allow it to carry a greater load and move further in a single turn. How would a Hero affect any of this? I think now that we have taken the logistic skill from a hero and given it to the unit we should incorporate an area of effect for the skill. For example if a hero travels within 5 squares or so of the supplies and units then they would recieve the hero bonus for attack, defense, etc... The hero would recieve the logistics bonus of the unit while travelling along side his or her supplies. This would ofcourse change the nature of the battlefield tactics favoring protection of your logistics units over a higher lv and stronger unit. Also, if the Hero wanders too far from his or her supplies this could mean receiving the ambush tactic from your opponent in an effort to cut your supplying abilities while your hero is off grabbing stat boosting structures!
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted December 12, 2003 08:09 PM |
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Here's the realism:
It's a computer game with its own rules.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 12, 2003 08:11 PM |
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I don't see what you mean. In H3 the Heroes are inseperable from the army and thus the creatures you used for making supply lines.
In H4 a lone Hero doesn't need much in the form of supplies. An excellent or durable horse would make much more than any supply train could do. (Could carry more gear and would not be dependent on slower walking troops in an army.)
I'm a bit weary about this because it adds to the micromanagement but not much to the gameplay. I think supply trains is something I'd like to pass on.
Part of the problem is that it could be difficult to give the AI a decent strategy in using this new feature, so it would just give huge potentially unbalancing exploits to the player.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 12, 2003 09:20 PM |
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Think about what we have seen
I understand your confusion Djive. Think about what we've seen in the evolution of Heroes 3 to bring about 4.(excluding all other debates to stay on topic)We're also talking about offering solutions to past games that might be addressed in the making of V.(yes I know another thread addresses this but this thread should continue to be added on)
We saw the seperation of the Hero and the troops in part 4 and I think this was because of the main topic of this thread. Chaining through a series of heros to get across an XL map in a single turn does pose a problem. Did they get it right? Not exactly but it does show the willingness to change the play of the game relating to this particular topic.(still remaining focused on this particular thread not skewing astray) I emphatically suggest offering the option of receiving the logistics area of effect skill(that i described above) to units and not the heros. Don't worry about the a.i. of the computer or stressing out on micro managing all of your tasks in a particular turn. Let's relax and think about this. A.I. is a programming issue to which there are many qualified people that could easily accomodate the needs of the program director.(they get paid well too, which is effective incentive)
First of all reassure yourself that this will NOT be turned into a real-time strat like warcraft. Heroes is synonymous with turn-based strategy gaming.
Micromanaging in a single turn stressful? Not really just increase the time of a turn from 3 minutes to about 4 or 5.
Seperation of Hero and troops? The selected troops that could now be seperate from the hero should still be under the control of the player. As for taking advantage of a situation by players....yes it will happen but I think that's reasonable to hit and run. Guerilla tactics are apart of any battle
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 13, 2003 04:08 PM |
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dont worry, djive, consis can understand your confusion.
imho the chaining problem is really very simple. what is complicated imho is how to elliminate it painlessly.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 13, 2003 04:36 PM |
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What works best depends on what rules you have for the army.
If the hero is inseperable from the creatures and creatures from the hero (like in H3), then it works best to have logistics effects on the hero rather than on creatures.
If heroes and/or creatures can move by themselves then it fits better to have logistics effects on the individual stacks.
You can also combine the two and let heroes give bonuses to the army as well as having individual movement for the creatures/hero.
To some extent you do have logistics effects this way in Heroes 4, since visiting a Trough or Stables does give the creatures in the army more movement points.
I actually think the movement system in Heroes 4 was quite good, with a few undesirables effects which should be removed.
- The effects of terrain and the inclusion of terrain artifacts and terrain map objects was ill adviced, since I never understood exactly what bonus they gave and if it was worth visiting.
- The effects of fleeing with a lone Hero was really bad, since it worked like a town portal to nearest town with no cost.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 14, 2003 07:50 AM |
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this is more or less an artifact topic and might add an accursed 'new dimension' to the game, but i would suggest and artifact monolith that you can carry around.
maybe it would slow you down a bit when you are carrying it with your army, etc.
the problem i see is that one side might capture all mobile monoliths and thus start to dominate too much.
maybe it could be a scroll that would let you create a monolith that will be immobile.
might be a softer version of transportation over long distances.
the inferno town had town gate in homm3 that was ok imho if there weren't too many inferno towns on the map. this sort of monolith, if it's a two-way monolith would be less unbalancing imho because the enemy can also use it once he gets to one end of the monolith.
although i am not a real fan of monoliths i think i would prefer this kind of a solution over cahining any time.
it would not eliminate the cause of the problem though, that is imho the fact that long distance travelling is boring.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 14, 2003 04:34 PM |
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Excellent idea Gerdash(once again)
Absolutely excellent idea my friend. While discussing the annoyance of chaining you have made an observation about army encumbrance. I know that in Dungeons & Dragons the adventuring party would often seek out shops that sold items such as a portable hole or bag of holding. Factors of an encumbered army might be something as simple as wearing very heavy armor or as complicated as purchasing a wagon pulled by beasts of burden with a set limit for maximum load it could carry. I agree with the fleeing hero observation allowing him or her to be instantly transported to any of your towns is not reasonable. Especially if that hero is now available in all your taverns, lol. One hero in many places at one time....come on that's too far from reality and the laws of common sense. Too bad the makers of HeroesV won't ever read the posts on this forum. I don't care what people have said about Fabrice watching these forums. That's b.s. If they were really paying attention to these forums then we would be getting a consistent amount of feedback from them. It is otherwise just heresay and gossip. A rumor that ubisoft or fabrice sometimes look at our posts is just that until I see some feedback from them quoting specific examples. That really gets to me when gamemakers think they don't have to acknowledge the gamer. I'm an American and if I want my local Senator to hear about my feelings on a specific bill or law being passed then I'll go to a forum that is devoted to that purpose. I'll make a post and then you'll see feedback from someone on that Senator's staff quoting specific examples. That way I know I've been heard and I know they're taking what I said into their consideration. Yes a lot of posts won't be responded to if they're rediculous and off topic but those of us here at the heroes community like kittenangel, valery, milena, redsoxfan, Djive, Gerdash, The Hydra, Lith Maethor, Lich King, private hudson, wolfman, and others make good contributions especially in the area of game ideas but do we ever see any feedback from the game-makers quoting specific examples? Nope, all we see is some distant recorded interviews addressing concerns about things like source codes and stock-market issues. I honestly don't feel very confident with rights to our precious HeroesV in the hands of such distant-minded companies partnered with a walstreet foreigner in his mid to early 20's. At this point I fanatically demand feedback from them addressing our well thought out opinions. I don't care if they tell me my idea sucked monkey's cheese! Something, anything is better than nothing!
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 17, 2003 07:31 AM |
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i wonder if there's a connection between the hydra and consis..
Respawning Maps is something in the direction of a solution to might make travelling less boring. i don't think i agree with the idea fully at it's present state, though (i don't think it would be reasonable for an already robbed pyramid to 'repopulate,' etc).
from the point of view of travelling, the only problem i see is that the reasonable size random stacks are no challenge during the usually boring end-game and might even take the boredom further. to counter that, maybe troop upkeep might be appropriate, so you wouldn't probably walk around with so big armies in the end-game.
now that i think of it again, maybe there could be portals that would be extremely heavily guarded and the guards might want larger sums of money for free passage.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted February 01, 2004 06:21 PM |
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just thought about a point of view that would make the concept of time (order of events) somewhat pointless and, unfortunately, hero chaining reasonable.
what if the armies want to rest most of the day and can travel for only a very short time of the day?
this way it is perfectly logical that army A comes (using up all day's movement) and clears stack S and army B begins it's day's movement passing the place where stack S stood.
the army B just started it's day's movement later than army A.
maybe this was the abstraction originally intended?
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted February 02, 2004 02:38 AM |
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But eliminating hero chains will call for a NEW strategy. Just as H5 will be a NEW game.
Also I liked the idea of a hero staying in a learning place for more than one day. It could be expanded as a hero with basic combat takes longer to learn at a training camp than a hero with expert combat and so on.
What's wrong with realism? Aren't you guys getting enough fantasy with the whole magic/creatures/one hero-killing-5-black-dragons thing?
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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