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| Thread: All the unrealism in HOMMs |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted June 23, 2001 11:06 PM |
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Nice way of explaining it Mordred 
And I'm pretty sure that's how things are in HOMM4, looking at the available info. So, sorry guys, no more half-map chains in one day. They say there will be caravans to send units though.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted September 02, 2001 03:29 AM |
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Unrealism
I noticed in the Fortress town, and all the other towns that there is water for the shipyard, and the castle is nowhere near the sea!!
Also the castles, when you actually click them, show all the structures, but when you are on the map, all you see is the castle!
At least in Heroes2, you can see some of the structures, like the Dragon Tower, when you are out adventuring.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Thorman
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2001 07:36 PM |
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Quote:
I dont really know if this is in heroes 3, but in heroes 2 creatures did have movement points, and heroes therefore had different amounts of movement based on what fast or slow creatures they had. Another thing is the move creatures we have in battle the better, but the combat mode is still lacking hugely in a tactical sense.
I played HoMM2 and never heard of creatures affecting the Hero's movement.
And there is always SIMS if you want realistic gaming.If you have creatures affecting your heroes movement,who would pick an Hydra over a Black Dragon in HoMM4?
I think 3DO stated that creatures you have will affect your movement in different terrain types.I think it was already in HoMM3,where tower creatures were moving further in snow than other ones.If your hero only had tower creatures,he wouldnt be affected by snow too much compared to a hero with a mix of creatures.
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Dragonhunter
Adventuring Hero
Anybody got a Band-aid
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posted September 03, 2001 02:22 PM |
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One of the things I liked least in "Age of Wonders" was the individual movement points. I very rarely do the chaining thing in H3; I find it too much of a pain plus I always felt like splitting up my troops in AoW 'cos some still had some movement left. I usually only have a maximum of two heros, even on the larger maps; too many gets to be a pain. I don't even like freeing heroes; I usually just dismiss them or just have collect stuff like weekly creatures-resources etc. The Town Portal spell,fly and dimented door ( I always call it that) are all I need to get troops from A to B.
I don't think that long movements are realistic but if everybody can do it, it's not an advantage.
I do like the"disciples" aspect where it costs half your move, or the remainder of it to go into combat! Three or four combats in one day is very unrealistic and this way you have to decide who to attack 'cos you can't get them all.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted September 03, 2001 09:55 PM |
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I'll be quite happy to see chaining go, and I disagree that chaining speed up gameplay. Have you ever tried playing multiplayer with somebody who is really into chaining, compared to against somebody who is not? The guy who is into chaining takes about 5 times as long to do his turn. This is not my idea of speeding up gameplay.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted September 05, 2001 12:19 AM |
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Mordred, that has to be the most logical solution to this problem I've ever seen. I've never liked chaining (I use it from time to time when I can't get Town Portal, it'd be silly not to take advantage of such a quirk in the game  ), but I'd never really thought of a way to avoid it. Individual stacks' movement as Valeriy described wouldn't really work because if the Phoenixes keep pace with the Peasants (for example), they shouldn't be able to suddenly make up for that lost distance in the last instants before nightfall. But how do you handle an army that splits up midway through movement (which is possible in HoMM4)? Here's how I would:
Say you have Peasants (move 20), a hero (move 40), and Phoenixes (move 60). You want the Peasants to guard a mine 10 spaces away (with the hero and Phoenixes guarding them on the way, for some odd reason  ) and then let the hero and Phoenixes move on. How far can they go? Simple. They spent half the day moving with the Peasants (half of the Peasants' 20 move), so they have half their movement left (the hero has 20, and the Phoenixes have 30). Of course, it makes more sense to send them separately so that the hero can move 40 instead of 30 unless there's something big and nasty standing in the path.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted September 10, 2001 09:22 PM |
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For Heroes IV, I would like to see individual movement speeds for creatures and heroes. The speed for creatures should vary depending on the terrain, and the movement cost for a route should be subtracted depedning on how much time a creature would need for making it to the destination itself, that is not dependent on how fast other creatures could travel.
How far a creature can move will depend on over which terrain it moves for a ground based creature; a flyer will always move the same distance since terrain is not an issue.
Visits to certain adventure map locations will increase the time (=hours) in a day a creature can move. It removes fatigue, improves morale and allows you to keep moving longer.
On the other hand a flying creature which could have taken a more direct route if it were to fly directly to the destination, would have to pay for the movement cost for the more indirect journey that will follow if it accompanies a ground-based army.
Otherwise, I don't buy this about reducing movement allowance by the same percentage before splitting up. It will make for more 'realism' in the case where you have a battle at the end of the day, but I don't think it's worth it since it will promote players who split up stacks in the morning and join them in the evening.
To explain why the faster stack can keep moving longer see it this ay. The limit for movement depends on two things:
*How fast a creature can travel.
*How many hours a creature can travel with that speed.
If a creature travels at a slower rate it is able to travel more hours per day. Therefore when the peasants have to stop for being too tired, many of the other creatures will not.
In Heroes IV it is no longer useful to handle creatures and heroes differently. Therefore, there's no difference between them. Both of these have their own movement allowance counted out separately.
If you combine two stacks, you count out how many hours each of the stack has left of their movement and the new stack has that movement. When it comes to count out which bonuses have applied (for instance to check whether you already have visited an adventure location), then if either of the creatures have visited the location it counts as both have done so.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted September 15, 2001 07:19 PM |
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imho the system that mordred suggested is called *time*
(opposed to others who seem to be talking about creatures getting tired).
so.. the troops and the hero travel all day, and how far they move each hour, say, depends on their speed. now, when two heroes meet and interact, the time for both heroes is set at the later hour of the two (i.e. if hero A travelled a long distance to meet hero B who had not moved this turn, it would count as if the hero B would have just stood there while hero A moved).
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now, going to the extremes, it may be possible to solve another problem that slows down the game sometimes, i.e. killing e.g. 100 zombies with one sprite. i am proposing that every round in a combat would take some amount of time, so the battle where 1 sprite kills 100 zombies might take a few turns (days).
there can be multiple heroes in an army now, so why not enable another hero joining the battlefield? i.e. you exit the combat screen with hero A and move your hero B on the map screen into the spot where you see the icon of the hero A fighting a monster stack. when the heroes meet, hero B will also join the same combat.
and going even further with extremes, if there is some event, e.g. a wandering monster stack removed, it would be associated with time. e.g. the corpse of that monster stack or sth like that would remain on the map until the end of the turn of that player, and the player could see the time of the removal of the stack. when another hero passes that place afterwards (from the point of view of the player), the hero's time would become at least equal to the moment of removal of the monsters in that turn..
the only unrealism left that is obvious to me atm is that the next player in the list would make it's turn after the previous one, not at the same time. but on the other hand, if the combat lasts more than one day, you can still send your forces (e.g. reinforcements) into the battlefield.
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well.. yeah.. i agree that the event time thing should fit under the definition of micromanagement. but the original idea that was supposed to just remove hero chains would not be too complicated imho, and making the rounds cost time (meaning the 1 sprite thing and joining with the other hero) would also add some dimension to the game.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted November 13, 2001 10:48 AM |
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I used to enjoy chaining, but the more I think about it, the more I realize it sucks.
eliminating the chaining creates a different and better strategy for HOMM.
Instead of "instant reinforcements", it will require planning. Instead of the micro-management of the chaining day, it will create a little movement everyday.
I'm surprised that only ONE person has mentioned the movement system of AOW. IMO, I believe that such is a much better AND FUNNER movement system than HOMM (even though I like HOMM more).
I believe the more realistic and correct the logistics become, the more fun the game will be. Any kind of unrealistic logistics will make the game "bent" ... like Dimention Door on a map like hourglass.
Valeriy, keep up the good work
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 23, 2001 06:14 PM |
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I agree. The ironic thing is, I have a friend who embraces chaining. It's creepy, but is extremely effective.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 24, 2001 04:18 PM |
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I think...
I heard somewhere that they were taking a small step to make chaining less practical. Since in Heroes IV, you can't really have one Hero that's skilled in everything, you have to have a few powerful Heroes, rather than one. Since you can only recruit, at maximum, eight Heroes, that maybe limits you to, say, five "pages". Since you can only recruit one "page" a week, is it really worth it?
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 24, 2001 07:30 PM |
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Well, we all forget that creatures will now be able to move around without heroes. Thus meaning that creatures now MUST have their map movement points. So bye-bye chaining (although I liked you ).
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted December 24, 2001 08:57 PM |
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But what about caravans have you forgotten about them? they will probably move the creatures without spending the creature's movement points, Hey how do you think a battle in the caravan will look like Svetac?
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It's optional.
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted December 25, 2001 06:48 AM |
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Barbarian
Here's how caravans work. You select destination, than the program counts the days needed for the army to arrive there. This meaning that caravans can travel for more than one day. One thing that is useful with the caravans is that they travel in "express train" manner. They don't stop to get anything along their way, but the creatures within caravans gain small movement bonus.
As for the caravan battle, I don't know wether caravans will be represented on the map.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 25, 2001 12:13 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 22 Jul 2002
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Quote:
Since you can only recruit, at maximum, eight Heroes, that maybe limits you to, say, five "pages". Since you can only recruit one "page" a week, is it really worth it?
There's no maximum number of heroes you may have in Heroes 4. The limit is 8 wandering armies each of which may have 7 stacks (and each of these are either a hero or a creature). As before you can have any number of garrisons.
You're forgetting that creatures can now move by themselves without a hero, so 'pages' are no longer an issue.
The heroes will be limited in number because you'll be limited in how fast you can recruit them, but there's no hard limit.
When it comes to the caravans, one of the earlier interviews said that the caravan would have the speed of a 'hero'. That means that it will surely go faster to ship slow creatures on a caravan than moving them yourself, on the other hand black dragons will move a lot faster if they move by themselves.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted July 22, 2002 09:41 PM |
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Off-topic Cleaned up topic.
A few additional reflections on this topic:
While using Heroes to chain creatures has been prevented in HoMM 4, it's still possible to 'chain' artifacts and potions.
Another thing I came to think of when I read through the posts is that splitting of stacks doesn't cause movement points to be recalculated. Hmm... well it may if you heroes with artifact that give movement bonuses or similar.
So if you have two creature stacks with say movement 20 and movement 30 and split them up after having moved 10 tiles. Then one of them will have 10 movement left and the other 20 movement left. If movement had been recalculated, then the remaining movement for stack 2 would be 15.
(This is not entirely true since the stack you split away will pay for the movement to the new tile on the map as if it had moved there normally)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 22, 2002 10:18 PM |
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Quote:
While using Heroes to chain creatures has been prevented in HoMM 4, it's still possible to 'chain' artifacts and potions.
I think that's not un-real. Infact its like a relay race chain.
My thought's (3 at this moment) of the unrealizm are
1: You saw the poo thread..
2: Where dose breeding go down? There's like no sex anywhere, yet thousand's of birth's happen monthly.
3: The hidden pocket of resource. There's no real *treasury*
4: Foodless game.. Good in a way, but UnReal indeed. There should be something representing the fact that the army is fed. Even if its a preq to building creature generator. Even if it feed's an unlimited ammount.
5: Who aree the workers building the stuff?
6: How are so many creatures developed in such short time from week one? Are the parent's pre-obin but killing everything off until you build home's? Are are WtF??
7: is a big one! Wheres the motivation for this mass force to follow a hero? There's no recognition of payment. I would'nt do that for free.. Putting my life right on the line where death is highly probable (unless i play )
Well, there are a few of my thought's Plennnnty more too. Saved for later
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted July 22, 2002 11:26 PM |
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Quote:
While using Heroes to chain creatures has been prevented in HoMM 4, it's still possible to 'chain' artifacts and potions.
I think that's not un-real. Infact its like a relay race chain.
=> It's very much unreal. The artifact can chain and move 100 movement points (and be used several times by different heroes during the day), but the furtherst moving creature/hero can move only 30 movement points.
2: Where dose breeding go down? There's like no sex anywhere, yet thousand's of birth's happen monthly.
=> In the towns and creature dwellings. Just see it as these have a steady population that produce warriors in steady intervals.
4: Foodless game.. Good in a way, but UnReal indeed. There should be something representing the fact that the army is fed. Even if its a preq to building creature generator. Even if it feed's an unlimited ammount.
=> The creatures carries their own supplies. Hunting to replenish stocks is done between turns, or it could be used to explain why movement is shorter in alien terrain. Take more time to stock up on food.
5: Who aree the workers building the stuff?
=> They are the citizens in the towns. Just see it like this. The towns actually contain a large number of individuals. When you build a creature dwelling, you allow some of the citizens to be trained for warfare.
6: How are so many creatures developed in such short time from week one?
=> I'd just assume that the population in the cities is about 1000 times the number of creatures produced.
7: is a big one! Wheres the motivation for this mass force to follow a hero? There's no recognition of payment. I would'nt do that for free.. Putting my life right on the line where death is highly probable (unless i play )
=> Why do you think it costs to recruit creatures? It's the hiring fee.
=> One thing that is missing is an upkeep-cost for the creatures, perhaps 1% of the recruitment cost. Doesn't some similar games have that?
I'd say that I would not like the micro-management most of these suggestions would mean. And anyway, breeding doesn't give results at the speed of 1 day.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Romana
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
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posted July 22, 2002 11:40 PM |
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which brings us back to page 1..
It's a game thus unreal thus not to be measured as such
bla bla bla
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The darkest skies show the brightest stars
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 06, 2002 04:23 PM |
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=> It's very much unreal. The artifact can chain and move 100 movement points (and be used several times by different heroes during the day), but the furtherst moving creature/hero can move only 30 movement points.
'Chaining' artifacts is not unreal. It is very realistic. Not to offend you in anyway but, where is your common sense?
I'll tell you why it is realistic that artifacts 'chain'.
Gob leaves from his house to meet his good friend Bob. He has Heroes 4 CD and he's going to play some hotseat at Bob's house. But when he finally arrives, Gob is very tired and goes to sleep on the coach. Bob is very disappointed, but then decides to go play hotseat with Nob. So he takes the Heroes 4 CD Gob did bring and leaves. But for Bob's annoyance Heroes 4 CD has gone out from movement, and he has to wait until the CD has replenished its movement so Bob can carry it to Nob's house.
In other words artifacts and potions are traded and not 'chained', they don't and shouldn't have movement.
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