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| Thread: A new revolutianry alignment of towns....!!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 10, 2004 04:50 AM |
bonus applied. |
Edited By: Svarog on 8 Apr 2005
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A new revolutianry alignment of towns....!!!
This post was heavily edited on April 2005, when two rather large additions were included - explanations of the Magic System and Morale System (see below), which are in direct relation to the alignments, and minor alteration in the creatures list according to some of your suggestions. The additions are a kind of summary of the entire debate in this thread, which enabled me develop the entire system to a deeper level. Thanks to everybody who contributed in the developing and polishing of this idea.
Hi to everybody. I’m new to the forum (but technically since last year) and this is my first thread, though I sent couple of replies somewhere proposing only a list of creat-s, which is what everybody does, but I didn’t know that then. So, as I was reading the other proposals (inspired by them), I came to an idea about a completely new system of towns and alignments. it might be a bit too late for this to enter the new heroes 5, but I think its something new and not seen before here, and it’s worth a look.
Basically, I expanded the number of towns to 12, each with 10 creatures and I expanded the magic system also. Now we have 8 schools of magic and (almost) all the towns have access to 3 of them. The towns are arranged according to a new and very logical system. I made a simple chart. The explanation is after that.
The yellow circles are connected in a golden square and they represent the GOOD towns. The gray circles in the black square represent the EVIL towns, while the brown ones represent the NEUTRALS. As you can see the town’s names are mainly based on the heroes3 game – easy to remember. The additional towns are Desert (Tomb), Aquatic (Atlantis) and Shadow, which I think are the ones most needed and wanted. The choice of creatures is based on mythology only and there’s not a single creature which is made up. Here’s a list of the towns and the creats they have.
The creatures
10 crits in every town doesn’t mean there are 10 levels. there are few pairs of creats which are the same level (like in homm4) and the player can make a choice which to have. but I don’t think the highest level of creature should be optional.
Additionally included: Anyway, I’m in favour of a chaotic model for creature levels, and irregular choices for which creature dwelling to built (in different towns different levels are made optional and choosable.) Also note that the creatures arent firmly arranged according to their level. And the names are just given to express the general idea behind each creature.
Castle
1. Peasant
2. Pikeman
3. Archer
4. Ballista
5. Swordsman
6. Griffin
7. Monk
8. Cavalier
9. Pegasus
10. Angel
Tower
1. Gremlin
2. Sylph (Invisible Spirit)
3. Dwarf
4. Stone Golem
5. Mage
6. Gargoyle
7. Colossus
8. Valkirie
9. Thunderbird
10. Titan
Tomb
1. Amazon Warrior
2. Carpet Warrior
3. Mummy
4. Nomad
5. Hawkman
6. Scorpionman
7. Gigant
8. Genie
9. Sphynx
10. Phoenix
Additional: (+ Roc)
Rampart
1. Gnome
2. Halfling
3. Leprichaun
4. Satyr
5. Fairy
6. Druid
7. Elf
8. Dryad
9. Unicorn
10. Green Dragon
Shadow
1. Rogue
2. Harpy
3. Witch
4. Shade
5. Warewolf
6. Troll
7. Argus
8. Wolf Raider
9. Cursed Treant
10. Chimera
Necropolis
1. Skeleton
2. Zombie
3. Ghost
4. Flesh Abomination
5. Wraith
6. Vampire
7. Lich
8. Death Knight
9. Bone Dragon
10. Grim Reaper
Dungeon
1. Kobold
2. Cockatrice
3. Beholder
4. Fire Sorcerer
5. Minotaur
6. Medusa
7. Earth Worm
8. Giant Spider
9. Gargantuan
10. Black Dragon
Inferno
1. Imp
2. Gog
3. Demon
4. Incubus
5. Cerberus
6. Pit Fiend
7. Manticore
8. Efreet
9. Balrog
10. Devil
Stronghold
1. Berserker
2. Goblin
3. Centaur
4. Two-headed man
5. Orc
6. Wild Boar
7. Ogre
8. Giant
9. Cyclops
10. Behemoth
Fortress
1. Swamp Slime
2. Gnme
3. Lizardman
4. Serpentman
5. Basilisk
6. Python
7. Beast
8. Dinosaur
9. Wyvern
10. Hydra
Atlantis
1. Pirate
2. Merman
3. Siren
4. Nereid
5. Hippocampus
6. Oceanid
7. Naga
8. Kraken
9. Scylla
10. Leviathan
Conflux
1. Earth elem.
2. Air elem.
3. Water elem.
4. Fire elem.
5. Magma elem.
6. Storm elem.
7. Ice elem.
8. Energy elem.
9. Psychic elem.
10. Will-O-Wisp
Ok. Now let’s go back to the alignment system. Beside the main good/evil/neutral division, there’s another one chaos/order division. The order group of towns consists of Tower, Aquatic, Necro and the Conflux. All these towns have their “artificialness” in common, as opposed to the “naturalness” of their counterparts (Rampart, Dungeon, Fortress, Stronghold). Animating dead, elements, objects and the hierarchy and stillness of the water represent the order, opposite of the chaotic force which drives the nature (force of creation, such as in Rampart, and force of destruction, such as in Dungeon, force of raw bloody power and fight for survival, the traits of Stronghold and Fortress). Therefore there should be two schools of magic for this conceptual division – Order and Chaos. The towns of each group would have access to the appropriate school.
The two other schools of magic can be Life and Death, with the towns of the good alignment having access to the life school, and the towns of the evil alignment having access to the Death school of magic.
The other four schools of magic would be the same from the good old heroes3 (air, fire, water, earth), and the towns where they can be found are shown with the angles of the figures representing the corresponding school. (I hope you are good at maths) Fire is opposed to Water, and Earth is opposed to Air. This way spells can be shared between schools.
In the end, we get 10 towns each with 3 schools of magic and 2 towns (Conflux and Stronghold) with only one school of magic. Since Conflux is an elemental town it will have access to all the “elemental” schools (air, water, fire, earth) beside the school of Order. And because Stronghold is a town of might, it will have only access to 1 school – Chaos.
When I revised the system, I noticed that it’s completely logical and functions great (with few exceptions, such as: tower goes with Water instead of Air, Necro goes with Air, but no big deal) from every point of view (philosophy, magic, playability).
Magic System – further explanation (additionally included)
This explanation is the result of the following discussion which developed the original magic system further and a very in-depthly (thanks to Hydra, Sikmar and others who participated), so I summed it up and included it in this first post.
As you know each town has access to 3 magic schools. For any doubts coming from the diagram, here’s the “translation”:
Castle: Life, Earth, Water school
Rampart: Life, Chaos, Earth
Tomb: Life, Fire, Air
Tower: Life, Order, Water
Inferno: Death, Fire, Air
Dungeon: Death, Chaos, Fire
Shadow: Death, Earth, Water
Necro: Death, Order, Air
Stronghold: only Chaos
Fortress: Chaos, Fire, Earth
Atlantis: Order, Water, Air
Conflux: Order plus Water, Air, Fire, Earth
Each town would be able to build Mage Guilds only for the corresponding schools and each Guild with equal number of spells, since there isn’t a particular magic school connected with a particular town. Meaning all the schools the town has access to will be equal in importance. Logically, the heroes would be able to learn a spell ONLY if that spell belongs to one of the schools their native town has access to. Thus, a Necromancer would only be able to learn Death, Order and Air spells. The way to do it would be to have secondary skills, like the homm4 system. So, that means you need to have three sec. skills in order to learn all the possible spells for a particular town (hero type). Surely, it centers the might/magic specialization more on heroes, rather than towns. Unlike the homm4 system, I don’t think knowing a magic school secondary skill should force you to learn other secondary skills associated with it. Maybe one more (or two in rare cases) as a sort of upgrade to that magic school secondary skill, but not 3 skills for every magic school, like in homm4. For example Death Magic being a prerequirement for learning Necromany (which could be viable only for Necromancers) and Occultness (viable for all death-aligned, i.e. evil heroes) secundary skills.
Sharing spells – that’s one very important concept developed down further in this thread, whose advantages include great individiduality and uniqueness for the different towns and at the same time a wide availability of spells to all heroes, with each hero having the possibility to learn half of the spells in the game (except Conflux heroes - 83%, and Stronghold heroes - 16%). Further advantages include allowing the heroes to have the chance (depending on the type of town) of learning new spells in all types of towns they conquer (even from the towns which don’t have the same schools as the hero’s native town, but still do share with them some of the spells), eliminating awkward situation like Necromancer casting Mass Bless etc. Clearly superior to the homm4 system.
The spell arsenal will consist of two types of spells – shared among magic schools (56 in number) and 112 unshared ones (unique, exclusive), totalling 168 spells. Each shared spell will be shared among one alignment school (life, death, order or chaos) and one elemental school, thus allowing that spell to be learned by 6-9 different towns (hero types). One unique (exclusive) spell can be found in 4-5 towns. A spell cannot be shared among elemental schools or alignment school (meaning a spell cant be water and earth type at the same time, or life and death spell at the same ime. Logically).
This doesn’t mean that a Dungeon hero won’t be able to learn a spell that belongs to the Order school. He will be able to learn it, as long as the spell belongs at the same time to a school that is connected with the Dungeon town (Fire, but not Chaos or Death, since it can only be an Order spell).
There’s the possibility of increasing maximum towns sharing a spell to 3 (instead 2), thus increasing availability of spells even more, but I havent thought out a mathematical model for that yet. The current model aims at 28 spells for each school, with 14 of them unique and 14 of them shared with the alignment or elemental schools. Note that in the thread discussion I explored and proposed different sharing-ratio models, but after much consideration, I decided to go with this one here presented.
And to emphasize the uniqueness of the towns even further, some should have a much much more greater chance to give a specific spell (e.g. Animate Dead in Necropolis) and others very low or no chance at all to give a non-appropriate spell, although it belongs to one of the schools connected with the town (e.g. Guardian Angel in Tower). But still an Alchemist (Tower hero) would be able to learn Guardian Angel, though only in a Castle town, not home.
The number of spells each fully-built Magic Guild offers would be 11 (probably arranged in levels like in homm3 - Level 1 & 2 = 3, 3 & 4 = 2, 5 = 1), meaning one fully-built town will have offered a total of 3*11=33 spells (since it has access to three schools, and thus three Mage Guilds), except Conflux – 55, and Stronghold – 11.
I’m afraid it sounds more complicated, than it truly is, but the whole point is the game to gain on playability. Plus I don’t think an average player will get so much into analysis of the system.
The Morale system – Individual Morale (slightly revised from the original proposal; additionally included)
After I took into consideration many of the readers proposals I specified and slightly revised the Morale system, so don’t be confused if the coming-up discussion doesn’t correspond with what is written here, or actually “reinvents” it. 
I introduce a new concept hereby, individual morale, as opposed to the group army morale we were accustomed to see so far. Why I think an individual creature morale should replace the army morale?
Don’t you think that neutral creature (let’s say – hydra) in an army shouldn’t be depressed if his comrades (monk and zombie) hate each other? Hydras aren’t really known for their compassionate nature. And that’s what army morale does - imposes morale on “poor” neutral creats. Lets say a vampire, a hydra and an angel are in the same army. The hydra being *more on the middle* wont care much about it, while the angel will piss off having to save the vampires life.
As far as the hero morale is concerned, it can just be added to each individual creature. Same goes for morale gained from map locations.
I also like the idea for even additional negative moral to apply to creats who really hate each other’s guts (the “hating” thing in homm3)
Here are the “morale axioms”. Each of these morale axioms applies to each creature individually, and in relation to every other creature in the army:
1# good/evil vs. neutral alignment -1 morale
2# good vs. evil alignment -2 morale
3# chaos vs. order alignment -1 morale
4# extreme opposites (inferno and Castle; Conflux and Stronghold) -1 morale
Special morale conditions: This conditions applies to all creatures in the army, if it’s fulfilled:
1* All troops of one town +1 morale
This system evaluates how each creature feels having to serve with each type of alignment, and than the sum of its feelings is calculated and you get the total creature individual morale. The more versitile the army is, the more likely is that creature to be unhappy. If two creatures belong to the same town (say, Medusa and Minotaur), and are together with a Monk in an army, the Monk will only feel “unhappy” once for having to serve with the Dungeon alignment (not twice for each creature), so he’ll get -2 morale (see rule 2#). But if he’s in an army with a Minotaur (Dungeon) and a Troll (Shadow), he’ll feel twice as unhappy, and would get -4 morale, whereas the Lich and the Troll would each get only -2 morale.
If more than one axiom applies in the relation between two creatures (e.g. they are both good-evil and order-chaos opposed, such as Rampart vs. Necro), then all morale effects of the rules (axioms) are summed up and the individual morale is calculated.
Additional examples:
What morale the creatures will have depends on what towns we are talking about. Chaos vs. Order gives -1 morale, but maybe at the same time the creatures are evil vs. good (Medusa (chaos, evil) vs. Mage (order, good)), so for those two another -2 morale should apply. Let’s say the third creature is Monk (good only). The Mage would be unaffected by its presence, while the medusa will get even additional -2 moral. So, end results: Medusa:-5, Monk:-2, Mage:-3. A combination anyone would wish for.
If a rampart creature is in the same army with a necro and a tower crit then its morale is the sum of all the “morales” that creature has. In this case it’s 3# (relation with the tower creature) and 2# and 3# (relation with the necro creature) so the sum is: -1 -2 -1= -4 morale.
At the same time the tower crit has #3 (for the rampart crit) and 2# (for the necro crit), so it has a morale of -1-2= -3 morale.
The morale system would discourage greatly mixing of armies, a practice I never really liked in past Heroes games. It would also give neutrals a more evident neutrality, as well as greater individuality for all towns and creatures alike (since we have extreme opposites, hating creatures, order-chaos, good-evil oppositions etc.).
Finally, I’m done. Thank you for those who had the patience to read all of this (few, probably). I would appriciate if I have some feedback from you guys, at least few replies. Maybe u can give me some suggestions, critic or anything that will help make the new game the best so far.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted January 10, 2004 05:35 AM |
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It's certainly a better idea with better formulation than much of what I have seen so far (and I have seen a lot of ideas). However, this is where the problem starts of "more is not always better". Some of the creatures in your towns are a bit out-of-place or just plain weird.
The shadow town and the dungeon town are in my opinion both a bit too similar to the current chaos town. And the aquatic town has been discussed many times, but that usually led to the conclusion of: "not viable".
The magic system could work, though in my personal opinion, I prefer a more detailed version of the HoMM4 magic system. However, I would have no objections to your system either. The morale system could also work, but once again, I prefer the HoMM4 system, which was less game-breaking than the HoMM3 system.
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Perception is everything.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted January 10, 2004 06:06 AM |
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Nice unit description except chimera and dendroid (!?) on shadow town. Also, Im seriously hoping that conflux gets deleted or at least a big whoop with the nerf stick.
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Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 10, 2004 06:55 AM |
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extraordinary
I give high praise to your alignment and magic setup. It's probably too late for Heroes 5, but maybe some other game.
One note, it would have been nice if you didn't mention those creatures where you did (maybe not mention them at all looking at the other posts): the description of the alignments should be right below the graphic, for ease of reading. I found it much more confusing than it needed to be because of that 
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted January 10, 2004 11:56 AM |
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Revolutionary Indeed
Welcome to the forums, Svarog, I hope your stay is a long and successful one.
“it might be a bit too late for this to enter the new heroes 5, but I think its something new and not seen before here, and it’s worth a look.”
While Heroes V is nowhere near finished in its developmental stage, such a sizeable change to its core system of alignments and towns suggests that it is indeed to late to offer this idea, as large as it is.
“Basically, I expanded the number of towns to 12, each with 10 creatures and I expanded the magic system also.”
Twelve is a large number when it comes to towns in the world of Heroes. Though I believe there does need to be some more towns, 12 may be too many. Considering that there were 6 towns in Heroes IV, 12 towns is slightly excessive, but I guess there couldn’t really be a substitute number for the intricate (and extremely well planned) alignment layout you have devised. While your town number may be imposing, your creature number is not. 120 creatures, while more than Heroes IV, rivals Heroes III, because of the absence of upgrades in your town system. I think 120 is a commendable number, also bearing in mind that all of your creatures are unique, unlike Heroes III where around half of them were upgrades.
I wouldn’t say the magic system has been expanded, just altered. Seeing as the towns no longer have their own magic (which is a good thing, in my mind) you’ve reduced the town-specific magic systems, and added the Heroes I-III system, which I think is a rather laudable decision, especially because your system of town alignment correlation works well with it, and with the neutral and no-magic towns.
I also notice that you have granted the stronghold some spellcasting capabilities. I agree with this, because I found it illogical that an Ogre Mage is able to cast spells but a more able human-like hero is not.
The addition of two other magic systems, life and death, seems slightly superfluous, in my opinion. I think the system would work well without these. I see no reason for a neutral town like Fortress allying itself with life or death. Aside from this, what will these two spell systems contain?
“Now we have 8 schools of magic and (almost) all the towns have access to 3 of them.”
This is opposed to Heroes IV, where there were 5 schools of magic, and every town (apart from Stronghold) had access to 3 of them. Once again, comparing this to Heroes I-III, where there were 4 systems, with every town having access to them. Why cut the magic system availability down further? I understand the intricacy in opposing alignments and magic systems, but still, shouldn’t the number be around 4 or 5, otherwise, there could be some difficult balancing issues. This could include the strength of certain spell systems, and also which combination of these systems each town receives.
“The additional towns are Desert, Aquatic and Shadow, which I think are the ones most needed and wanted.”
Yes, I would say you are spot on there. I think the most in demand would have to be the aquatic town, which you have created in a praiseworthy fashion in choosing the creatures in the town.
“[[10 crits in every town doesn’t mean there are 10 levels. there are few pairs of creats which are the same level (like in homm4) and the player can make a choice which to have. but I don’t think the highest level of creature should be optional.]]”
You should try to establish this as soon as possible. Bearing in mind that all the towns need to be equivalent. I imagine you plan to have 2 choices in each level?
The town diagram you have constructed is very well done. It does an excellent job of visually portraying your message. However, it does have 1 major flaw, which is not just apparent in your town system, but in every one where ‘opposite alignments of towns and magic’ are used. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to be changed. Did you ever wonder why there were no new towns in Heroes IV expansions? That was the primary reason.
Having towns and magic systems and opposites so closely interrelated in that fashion makes it impossible to add new material (town) without disrupting the balance of the system you have so nobly created. It is a perfect system structurally at the moment. But if you want to add a town in an expansion, then it could not be done without a major overhaul of the system, which is more the task of a new game, not an expansion. This is also probably the reason why Ubisoft wouldn’t accept a town system like this. While it could play well, it doesn’t allow room for expansion. If you could somehow find a way where adding a new town would not affect the system, it would be much more favourable.
Creature Related Questions
Castle:
8. Mounted Knight – Why not call this unit a cavalier or a champion? It sounds better than a ‘mounted knight’ in my opinion.
I would swap the pikeman and archer around. I can’t envisage a pikeman being so lowly.
Tower:
3. Dwarf – A dwarf in Tower? I’m not sure if that fits too well. It really depends on what message you are trying to convey. Tower is usually associated with mechanical units and such, and the dwarf has always been in the Nature/Preserve/Rampart castle.
Desert:
Looks like an excellent town, though, I have two problems:
1. How can a flying carpet be a creature?
2. I would probably replace the ‘Gigant’ with a Roc, since they did dwell in the desert, and seem more apt than a Gigant, because the former has not been in a Heroes game before, while the Roc has.
Rampart:
The Halfling would be a good swap for the dwarf.
Why is the leprechaun so high? I would put the satyr in front of it, and change the ‘fairy’s’ name to a sprite, too keep with the Heroes tradition. Also, I would be inclined to say that Druids are better than Elves, seeing as in Heroes II, Druids were level 4, while Elves were level 3.
Shadow:
Good, except the Troll, Amazon Warrior and the Dendroid don’t quite fit in with the theme. Or the Chimera, for that matter.
Necropolis:
The Grim Reaper maybe should be pushed down to 8th, with the Bone Dragon in 10th, and Black Knight in 9th.
Dungeon:
Another great town, but, spiderwoman?
Inferno:
This town seems very well constructed, and basically an enhanced version of the Heroes III town. I don’t know if an Incubus is that igneous. Oh, and thanks for informing us of what a ‘Brimo’ is, otherwise I wouldn’t have known.
Stronghold:
Again, excellent choice of creatures. I have noticed you work in more of a Heroes III style, because the Orc is more powerful than the Centaur.
Fortress:
1. Gnoll
2. Serpent
3. Lizardman
4. Serpent Fly
5. Gargoyle
6. Basilisk
7. Gorgon
8. Need Something Here
9. Wyvern
10. Hydra
I think Fortress is a hard town to make up. Dinosaur, Beast, and Blob seem much too generic for a Heroes game.
Aquatic:
My congratulations for coming up with such a wonderful town! It includes every fantastical water-dwelling creature I can think of – and more.
Conlfux:
While it is sort of generic, and the same creature is used for the entirety, it is not as bad as Bjorn says.
“The order group of towns consists of Tower, Aquatic, Necro and the Conflux. All these towns have their “artificialness” in common, as opposed to the “naturalness” of their counterparts (Rampart, Dungeon, Fortress, Stronghold).”
I would say that’s a fairly safe way of creating a division. While it wouldn’t be openly apparent to the players of the game, it is an effective way of creating a distinction. I also like the way you have placed reasoning behind this. While the spells do support your argument, wouldn’t it be possible for other, non-natural towns to utilise them, or are there restrictions in place?
“The towns of each group would have access to the appropriate school.”
I gather a Rampart Hero wouldn’t be able to learn Order magic? A good restriction, in my opinion.
“4# extreme opposites (inferno and Castle; Conflux and Stronghold) -1 morale”
Concerning extreme opposites, I think there should be a -2, because of the sheer hatred for one another. It can probably be likened to good vs. evil. Your penalty application has brought up a suggestion: Compound Morale
But not just for creatures, but for whole armies, also. So, if it was a good vs. evil, plus extreme opposites, the army morale would be -4. Also, for creatures, an extreme opposite could also apply for them. For example, a Titan and a Black Dragon in the same army would earn -2 morale, but just for those two creatures.
Excellent post, Svarog. It is obvious you have put a lot of time into this post. That is one of the best diagrams I have seen on the board, too.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Darion
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 10, 2004 06:20 PM |
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Indeed, one of the best thought out and most creative ideas I have seen yet.
As for the Aquatic town and the ones that people think to be unplayable as a starting castle, I had the idea that they would always start out as neutral towns. For example, the aquatic town would be out on the water, and one would need a boat to go capture it (unless the hero has some kind of waterwalking skill)
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 11, 2004 05:26 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 10 Jan 2004
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Thanx for the swift replies. I have this one letter to answer you all. Il come back from holiday in a week, so read ya then.
Marelt_Ekiran: The shadow town and the dungeon town are in my opinion both a bit too similar to the current chaos town. And the aquatic town has been discussed many times, but that usually led to the conclusion of: *not viable*.
I agree. Just like they did to Inferno and Necro in homm4. And is that good? I think NOT. Dungeon is the evil underground warlocks, while I see Shadow as the dark side of Nature, a Black Wood or something, more mystical than Dungeon.
I think an aqua army can behave just like any else. Aqua crits should walk or crawl just like the others.
Reply to Hydra:
Thanx for the compliments. Though I dont like to argue, because I agree with 95% of what you said, I feel obliged to respond.
*Having towns and magic systems and opposites so closely interrelated in that fashion makes it impossible to add new material (town) without disrupting the balance of the system you have so nobly created.*
Hmm, good point. But, I think that my proposal as it is, is the ultimate collection of towns (unless you want to add a Forge, that is). So, probably the best solution would be for the first edition to take out the four towns in the middle (Fortress, Aquatic, Desert and Shadow) and add them in the expansions. This wont disturb the system a bit. Also, the remaining 8 towns resemble the closest to what the homm5 would most likely be, which solves the problem of my idea coming too late.
*The addition of two other magic systems, life and death, seems slightly superfluous, in my opinion. I think the system would work well without these. I see no reason for a neutral town like Fortress allying itself with life or death. Aside from this, what will these two spell systems contain?*
Perhaps I didnt make myself too clear. Fortress doesnt ally itself with neither Life nor Death, although it may look so on the chart. If I put away life and death school some of the towns will end up with access to less than 3 schools. So no can do. Life and Death school would contain of course life and death spells. I know I didnt emphasize the fact that magic schools should SHARE spells. For instance, 50% from the life spells may belong to the elemental schools, 25% to the order/chaos school and only 25% to life school exclusively. Same goes for death, order and chaos school. This way (almost) all the spells will be much more available to all towns.
About the creatures. Yes, didnt have much time and space to go through all of them precisely, so I understand why people dont understand some of them. The main point is they are all famous and different and mythological. They are not firmly arranged according to their level so I will not comment you on this one. Also the names are put just to give the general idea.
*Mounted knight > Champion* I agree.
*Dwarf ¡V A dwarf in Tower?* Yes, the dwarf has always been in Rampart. but should it stay there given the fact that dwarfs are smiths (the best maybe), they create the mechanical units the wizards animate, and they dont really care about the nature that much.
*How can a flying carpet be a creature?* Good point. I meant a warrior on a flying carpet. And its pretty desert-like, you have to admit.
A Gigant is a three-headed man, with six arms and legs.
*Good, except the Troll, Amazon Warrior and the Dendroid dont quite fit in with the theme. Or the Chimera, for that matter.*
Well, I see Shadow as the Dark side of nature, or a Cursed Wood, for instance. Trolls cant walk on daylight, right? Amazon, I agree, not a good name for a female warrior. As far the Dendroid is concerned, I imagined is the counterpart of the Dryad (also tree-like) or her dark side. I couldnt find top creature for Shadow, but the Chimera. And why not?
*The Grim Reaper maybe should be pushed down to 8th, with the Bone Dragon in 10th, and Black Knight in 9th.*
Cant agree. Sorry.
*Another great town, but, spiderwoman?* ļ Its a replace for the giant spiders the other guys were proposing which arent that mythological. This one would have the torso and head of a woman and the rest of it a spider.
*I think Fortress is a hard town to make up. Dinosaur, Beast, and Blob seem much too generic for a Heroes game.*
You might be right. But about your alternative: Serpent flies looked awkward from the beginning, and the Gorgon as it is in homm3 never existed in mythology, they were just sisters of Medusa (similar to her).
*While it is sort of generic, and the same creature is used for the entirety, it is not as bad as Bjorn says.* Believe me; I had to have the 12th town. And where would you put all those elementals?
*Your penalty application has brought up a suggestion: Compound Morale
But not just for creatures, but for whole armies, also. So, if it was a good vs. evil, plus extreme opposites, the army morale would be -4.*
I still think each creature should have a morale of its own. Lets say a vampire, a hydra and an angel are in the same army. The hydra being *more on the middle* wont care much about it, while the angel will piss off having to save the vampires life.
Another long one. Jee, I better stop this or youll run out of Gigabytes.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2004 06:30 AM |
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Quote:
And the aquatic town has been discussed many times, but that usually led to the conclusion of: "not viable".
I dont understand why all feel that the water town is not viable. I can't find a reason for this. All the creatures contained in the town must be able to walk on land, so you cannot include just any water creature, but there are still plenty of amphibious fantasy creatures out there that you could make a town out of them. And for the town itself on the adventure map, it may be built on land or water. For a non-water town to attack the town if it is on water, they must enter a boat and attack it by boat. So obviously we cannot have a submerged water town, as there would be no logical way for non-aquatic creatures to enter it, but we can have a town that is ON water. Of course the only way the water town will actually be IN water is if the map is a custom-made map where the author placed the water town there. So obviously the mapmaker (if he is sane) will make boats available to other towns so they can attack the water town.
the only real issue is .. can water-town units walk across water? throughout the homm series water has extensively been used as boundaries/walls. If we allow water-town units to walk across water, then we must either ban them on a lot of maps (they'll rarely be used, in that case) or stop using water as boundaries. Also, another thing that would help that not be as huge of an advantage for them is to reduce the penalty of entering and leaving a boat. Instead of your entire turn, it could be 50% of your movement maybe. if you think about it, it's ridiculous that if you have 1 movement left, or 40 movement left, you still lose all your movement by boarding boat either way  Or you could just make water-town units hafto use boats like everyone else, on water. although doesn't make tons of sense.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted January 12, 2004 09:04 AM |
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Specifics of the Town System
There have been quite a few town system proposals put forth in the past, each with their own merits. This one, thought up by Svarog, does tend to lean more towards Heroes IV with its focus on correspondence between the town and magic schools, to create a sense of individuality, and that no town is the same and is also unique, too.
“Hmm, good point. But, I think that my proposal as it is, is the ultimate collection of towns (unless you want to add a Forge, that is).”
Some may disagree here. However, I am not one of them. While you do include many towns that have been mentioned, if you are to search through the archives of the Altar of Wishes, you will find a substantial number of towns that you don’t have. Also, the fact that ‘all’ of the most suitable towns are already in the game, fans would be slightly disappointed without some sizeable addition in their expansion packs. I know from experience that the Heroes IV expansion packs weren’t lauded for their new content.
“So, probably the best solution would be for the first edition to take out the four towns in the middle (Fortress, Aquatic, Desert and Shadow) and add them in the expansions. This wont disturb the system a bit.”
If it would not disturb the system, then it would be a great move for the fans. However, I am not sure if it wouldn’t disturb the system at all. I think a possible consequence would be that the number of towns doesn’t warrant the number of spell schools. Seeing as it isn’t one town owning a spell school, there would be 8 different spell schools for 8 different towns. But if you add 4 more towns, there are still 8 spell schools. I think that would cause some suspicion.
“Fortress doesnt ally itself with neither Life nor Death, although it may look so on the chart.”
So, if Fortress does not ally itself with either, can it still obtain spells from these schools? I feel the answer is no. If this is so, then wouldn’t it disrupt the equilibrium of the towns having the same amount of spell schools available apart from Stronghold and Conflux? Again, this isn’t noticeable from the diagram.
“Life and Death school would contain of course life and death spells.”
Hmmm. As you are aware, in Heroes IV, Life and Death schools did belong to the corresponding alignments. This isn’t the case in your system. So, the spells wouldn’t just be spells a Necromancer would learn. There would be spells an Dungeon Magic Hero could learn, or a Shadow magic hero could learn. This would eliminate spells that allow you to summon a creature, like summon Ice Demon, or summon devil, because it wouldn’t be applicable to all schools. Spells like Animate Dead, Vampiric Touch, etc would be good. Also, necromancy, would this just apply to Necropolis as a special town ability, or be part of the magic system?
“For instance, 50% from the life spells may belong to the elemental schools, 25% to the order/chaos school and only 25% to life school exclusively. Same goes for death, order and chaos school.”
I see. I had thought this would be the end result. I am still anticipating that the non-life exclusive spells can still be cast by the life castle? The elemental section of the life school can be cast by life, but not by order, for example? Despite the intricacy of this system, I still believe it can work well. Giving further exclusivity in already exclusive schools is a definite risk, because it is reducing the number of spells a certain town can cast. This means there are limitations on towns when learning magic schools.
“The main point is they are all famous and different and mythological.”
This is definitely a positive sign. I dislike it when creatures are just ‘made up’ without any though. Such as the Frenzied Gnasher. No real though, and definitely too generic to be in the series, as well as a horrible name. I do, however, like inspired creatures like the Gargantuan, Megadragon (despite average name), etc. I would definitely try to stay clear from Dragons like the Crystal, Rust, Azure, et al, otherwise they get too omnipresent. The names are also unimaginative, merely altering the colours. Do different colours grant more power? I laud the way you have introduced the creatures. Hardly any doubles, i.e. creatures similar to each other.
“but should it stay there given the fact that dwarfs are smiths (the best maybe), they create the mechanical units the wizards animate, and they dont really care about the nature that much.”
Yes, that is true. I agree with all apart from the last phrase. They probably do care about nature, and the way that the Heroes series has portrayed dwarfs is very different to LOTR style. Heroes style has them dressed in more natural clothes (I’m thinking of Heroes II/III here). Although, I am not fussed which way they go, as long as their appearance is in correspondence.
“Good point. I meant a warrior on a flying carpet. And its pretty desert-like, you have to admit.”
Yes, now it seems much more probable. Maybe a ‘Carpet Warrior’. Though it doesn’t sound right in context, it does when you reflect on its position. Yes, very desert orientated.
“Well, I see Shadow as the Dark side of nature, or a Cursed Wood, for instance. Trolls cant walk on daylight, right?”
I’m not sure about the Trolls and daylight. I thought that was more associated with vampires. Anyway, I have perceived trolls as more barbaric, with bridges being their dwellings. I wouldn’t have thought of them as ‘creatures of the night’.
“As far the Dendroid is concerned, I imagined is the counterpart of the Dryad (also tree-like) or her dark side. I couldnt find top creature for Shadow, but the Chimera. And why not?”
The dendroid, I think would be acceptable. The Chimera, I think not. I believe it was killed by Bellerophon. Despite this, being a hybrid of a Lion, Goat, Snake, and Dragon doesn’t really constitute a ‘shadowy creature’. It would probably be best in the conflux.
“Its a replace for the giant spiders the other guys were proposing which arent that mythological. This one would have the torso and head of a woman and the rest of it a spider.”
If anything, it appears much less mythological than a giant spider. However, without light of a better replacement, it would be OK. Even though I’d prefer the giant spider, I don’t know if Ubisoft would accept either.
“You might be right. But about your alternative: Serpent flies looked awkward from the beginning, and the Gorgon as it is in homm3 never existed in mythology, they were just sisters of Medusa (similar to her).”
Yes, I also agree that the others aren’t mythologically correct, either. Serpent flies aren’t that good, either, but I would much prefer them to a ‘blob’. Also, it was the Gorgon Medusa, not a bull as portrayed in Heroes III. Although, I am now starting to believe that the Gorgon in Heroes III was NWC adaptation of a gorgon in mythology, just with an altered appearance.
“Believe me; I had to have the 12th town. And where would you put all those elementals?”
Yes, I know how instrumental an extra town is in such a compact and complex system like yours is. It wouldn’t be impossible to have elementals as neutral creatures now, would it?
“I still think each creature should have a morale of its own.”
Maybe you misunderstood me here. I am also in agreeance for creatures to have individual morale. I was also trying to apply the individual, army, and morale bonuses/penalties to all of the affected units, (and army) and to compound them for more dynamic morale situations.
“Another long one. Jee, I better stop this or youll run out of Gigabytes.”
Don’t worry, I have written many longer ones in the past.
Blue_Camel
“the only real issue is .. can water-town units walk across water?”
I agree. Though, this really shouldn’t be an issue if it is to be realistic. But if they are allowed to, then a big advantage would arise. I think a way to solve this potential problem, as you say, would be that creatures would only move at ½ speed or 1/3 speed of their usual, to discourage them travelling this way. But, it would be more easily solved if creatures couldn’t travel by themselves at all, which is what I am hoping for.
Looking at the other side of the coin, would water-town creatures be able to walk on land? This can turn out to be a rather difficult scenario. Some water units such as the Leviathan, as listed in the creature lists would only be able to commute on water, not on land. However, this hasn’t stopped a Sea Monster being with an army in Heroes IV. Provided we don’t delve to deeply into the depths of realism in a strategy game, maybe the unit moving by itself (if that is still possible) cannot do so, but with an army, it would be achievable.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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CoolFool
Hired Hero
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posted January 12, 2004 09:18 AM |
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To - Svarog
I like your idea...
But I don`t think that the ballista is a creature!
or it`s a robotic ballista?
I`m not sure about warrior on flying carpet...
and I think that wild boar shuold be neutral...
Everything else looks perfect...
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted January 12, 2004 11:50 PM |
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I say kudos to Svarog for having one of the most comprehensive systems I've seen so far. I would buy that game, and the expansions for those extra towns! I hope Ubisoft takes notice!
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2004 02:35 AM |
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Quote:
Looking at the other side of the coin, would water-town creatures be able to walk on land? This can turn out to be a rather difficult scenario. Some water units such as the Leviathan, as listed in the creature lists would only be able to commute on water, not on land. However, this hasn’t stopped a Sea Monster being with an army in Heroes IV. Provided we don’t delve to deeply into the depths of realism in a strategy game, maybe the unit moving by itself (if that is still possible) cannot do so, but with an army, it would be achievable.
well that's why i was saying that you'd probably hafto stick to amphibious water units to populate the water town, which is not a hard task, as there are plenty of them. You can replace the leviathon with a sea monster. All the rest of the units in his proposed water town are amphibious i believe. Although a water town such as that really can't have pirates. Pirates would have to be neutral. It makes little sense for sirines and pirates to be in the same town, as sirines' favorite past-time is to leer pirates/sailors to their death And even if sirines were not a part of the town, pirates still just don't fit with those creatures. But whether or not the town should have pirates is a very trivial issue, the point is that a water town is QUITE feasible.
Quote:
But, it would be more easily solved if creatures couldn’t travel by themselves at all, which is what I am hoping for.
for H5, I would like to see a bit of a mix between the H3 and H4 way of doing this. I would like to see creatures require a hero to move, as you do. But as for how you hire heroes in h5, I would like to see a limit on how many heroes you can hire from a tavern in a period of time(like h4). But, I would like to see it changed from 1 hero every week to 2 heroes every week (or 1 hero every 3-4 days, take your pick. although these are a bit different, as the latter prevents you from hiring 2 heroes on the same day). Obviously if creatures were to be required to have a hero to move, then the rate at which you can buy heroes has to go up from heroes 4. But I dont like letting you buy as many heroes as you want, as was possible in h3. Especially if (as it sounds, from listening to fabrice) heroes will be in/semi-in combat.
But I think it would be nice if there would be at least 1 creature per alignment that has a "scouting" ability.. meaning they CAN move on their own. That would greatly enhance the strategy, if ubi did it right (assuming ubi will make there be CHOICES in creature dwellings, and not just the primitive "build 'em all" approach used in h3).. just think: at Level 3 dwelling #1 you can recruit a weaker creature, but a creature that is fast and has the scouting ability. at Level 3 dwelling #2 you can recruit a creature that is really strong in combat. The L3 creature which has scouting is the ONLY creature in this town that has scouting. Which do you choose?
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted January 13, 2004 12:18 PM |
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Say the taven has two upgrades which lets you hire 2 heroes per week at basic tavern. 3 at motel level and 4 or 5 at Ritz level. You thieves guild info could increase accordingly as well
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 17, 2004 04:32 AM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 16 Jan 2004
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The Magic System - explanation
This discussion over the system, inspired me to visualize the spell system very precisely. Thanks for the ideas, Hydra (many heads are better than one). Here’s how I see it.
As you know each town has access to 3 magic schools. For any doubts coming from the diagram, here’s the “translation”:
Castle: Life, Earth, Water school
Rampart: Life, Chaos, Earth
Desert: Life, Fire, Air
Tower: Life, Order, Water
Inferno: Death, Fire, Air
Dungeon: Death, Chaos, Fire
Shadow: Death, Earth, Water
Necro: Death, Order, Air
Stronghold: only Chaos
Fortress: Chaos, Fire, Earth
Aquatic town: Order, Water, Air
Conflux: Order plus Water, Air, Fire, Earth
Each town would be able to build Mage Guilds only for the corresponding schools and each Guild with equal number of spells, since there isn’t a particular magic school connected with a particular town. Logically, the heroes would be able to learn a spell ONLY if that spell belongs to one of the schools their native town has access to.
However, as I said, I think that spells should be shared between schools, if the schools are not opposite (death shouldn’t share spells with life, and order with chaos)
This doesn’t mean that a Dungeon hero won’t be able to learn a spell that belongs to the Order school. He will be able to learn it, as long as it belongs at the same time to a school that is connected with the Dungeon town (Death or Fire, but not Chaos since chaos is opposite of order). This way a spell (e.g. Lightning Bolt) which belongs at the same time to 2 or even 3 schools (Chaos and Air) will be allowed to be cast by heroes from 8 towns (or 9 if you count the Conflux) out of 12. You see, availability similar to the heroes3 system, but no more awkward situations like a Necromancer casting Mass Bless.
And to keep the uniqueness of the towns, some should have a much much more greater chance to give a specific spell (e.g. Animate Dead in Necropolis) and others very low or no chance at all to give a non-appropriate spell, although it belongs to one of the schools connected with the town (e.g. Guardian Angel in Tower).
And to keep the uniqueness of the magic schools, I think, there should be spells unique for that school only (though I think elemental schools don’t have to have unique spells). I think the percentage ratio for a non-elemental magic school should be something like: 50% of spells are shared with elemental schools, 25% with other non-elemental schools and 25% are unique spells.
To Hydra:
““Fortress doesnt ally itself with neither Life nor Death, although it may look so on the chart.”
So, if Fortress does not ally itself with either, can it still obtain spells from these schools? I feel the answer is no. If this is so, then wouldn’t it disrupt the equilibrium of the towns having the same amount of spell schools available apart from Stronghold and Conflux?”
You are absolutely right. But Fortress, as any other town for that matter, has access to 3 schools of magic (Chaos, Earth, Fire). And no matter what you do to them (8, 10 or 12 towns), they still have access to the very same schools.
“I am still anticipating that the non-life exclusive spells can still be cast by the life castle?”
Only if those were Water or Earth exclusive (unique) spells.
“The elemental section of the life school can be cast by life, but not by order, for example?”
It will be possible for the elemental section of life spells to be cast by order towns, only if those order towns had access to the elemental school the specific spell belongs to.
“While you do include many towns that have been mentioned, if you are to search through the archives of the Altar of Wishes, you will find a substantial number of towns that you don’t have.”
Yes, I saw that there are several other towns in the threads. But what are the criteria you need to have in order to “make” a town. A town based on your national origin? Geographically oriented town? I believe (and that’s what my proposal’s based on) that towns should differ culturally, philosophically. So, no Ice towns, Oriental or Jungle! Or Dragon town, also.
“Seeing as it isn’t one town owning a spell school, there would be 8 different spell schools for 8 different towns. But if you add 4 more towns, there are still 8 spell schools.”
So what? Even if you play a single scenario, there is still a definite number of schools, while the number of towns varies depending on the map maker.
“I’m not sure about the Trolls and daylight. I thought that was more associated with vampires. Anyway, I have perceived trolls as more barbaric, with bridges being their dwellings. I wouldn’t have thought of them as ‘creatures of the night’.”
Yeah, I know. It’s amazing how this game influences our view on mythology and creatures, but trust me on this one – trolls DO explode on sunlight.
“Although, I am now starting to believe that the Gorgon in Heroes III was NWC adaptation of a gorgon in mythology, just with an altered appearance.”
Yes, but VERY altered.
“Maybe you misunderstood me here. I am also in agreeance for creatures to have individual morale. I was also trying to apply the individual, army, and morale bonuses/penalties to all of the affected units, (and army) and to compound them for more dynamic morale situations.”
I’m definitely FOR a very dynamic morale system, but I’m not talking about an army morale here. (I think there should be no such thing) Only an individual unit morale that depends on that unit’s “companieros” in the army.
To Blue_Camel:
The Water town should have only amphibians, absolutely. But I’m not sure if we should allow any town ON water terrain, because it would greatly change the balance of the game. But since it’s an aqua army they should have something characteristically aquatic. I think they should have the abillity to walk on water (only for a complete aquatic army) but it should take a whole day to enter/leave the water, just like with boats. This will prevent the opponent doing hasty retreats or escaping you whenever you board on a boat.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Styq
Known Hero
Grandmaster Leadership
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posted January 17, 2004 09:28 AM |
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I love it!
The Fortress units are a little farfetched though, how about:
1. Gnoll
2. Lizzardman
3. Serpant Fly
4. Wasport
5. Basilisk (snake-like, plz)
6. Blob Wyrm
7. Gorgon
8. Wyvern
9. Hydra
10. Green-Acid Dragon
I love every last one of your ideas. If i could, I'd put the fate of HOMM5 in your hands. BRAVO!!
____________
Leadership is nothing but being a good actor,
just like bravery is nothing but being a fool
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted January 17, 2004 09:44 AM |
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New Town Systems – Magic
Offtopic: Quality Point Bonus Applied.
Svarog, you have gone to extraordinary lengths to relay your message of a new, revolutionary town system to the Heroes Community. Including the usage of such an intricate diagram is another testament to the time and effort you have invested. The amount of thoughtful replies affirm that the idea you have proposed is not only groundbreaking, but very well though out and planned, and with strong links, just as the Heroes IV system employed.It is also commendable that you have followed up your initial post with several other, long and insightful replies, that continue to put forward your message. Well done.
Blue_Camel
“Although a water town such as that really can't have pirates. Pirates would have to be neutral. It makes little sense for sirines and pirates to be in the same town”
Yes, I agree. The pirates live on water, while the other creatures live in it. There is quite a difference. The pirate should be a neutral aquatic town creature, and all the base aquatic town creatures should be the ones that actually dwell in it, not on a ship.
“But whether or not the town should have pirates is a very trivial issue, the point is that a water town is QUITE feasible.”
True. One could argue for pirates that they live their life around water, and that they are so related to it that it would be enough to grant them admittance. A town totally devoted to aquatic based creatures is certainly not out of question. One point against it would be the redundancy of such creatures. An example would be an Oceanid and a Nereid. Also, I don’t know Ubisoft’s stance on filling a whole town with just water dwelling creatures.
“But as for how you hire heroes in h5, I would like to see a limit on how many heroes you can hire from a tavern in a period of time(like h4). But, I would like to see it changed from 1 hero every week to 2 heroes every week (or 1 hero every 3-4 days, take your pick.”
Once again, I must concur. I also had that thought. Myself, I would prefer 2 heroes per week, because it gives you the freedom to recruit your hero anytime during the week, so you can recruit 2 in 2 days, where as you can’t with the other method. Also, I think it is better to continue to go by the weekly basis of conducting business, 3-4 days is too uneven.
“Obviously if creatures were to be required to have a hero to move, then the rate at which you can buy heroes has to go up from heroes 4.”
Yes, otherwise it would become illogical, because Heroes need to be hired more frequently, as they are once again more important on the adventure map. I also agree the Heroes III system was too free, and didn’t tie in with other restrictions like creatures once per week, 1 building per day, etc.
“But I think it would be nice if there would be at least 1 creature per alignment that has a "scouting" ability.. meaning they CAN move on their own.”
That certainly is an interesting notion. Additionally, the thoughts you have about balancing the decision making process (which I hope returns) is also excellent. I think, many would prefer the stronger creature, unless they are in dire need to explore the adventure map quickly, and their weekly hero-hiring limitations have started. It would be a short term solution, but also good for another reason. The creature could lead an army without having to get a hero, and the army could simply disband and create another, and another, which would not be possible for a hero.
“primitive "build 'em all" approach used in h3”
Indeed, very primitive. I did dislike that method for its lack of strategy, and it would be much more dynamic if Ubisoft retained the Heroes IV creature decision making process. It is strange I agree with you on everything now, it wasn’t that way 2 years ago
Svarog
“Thanks for the ideas, Hydra (many heads are better than one).”
LOL. Always a pleasure.
“Each town would be able to build Mage Guilds only for the corresponding schools and each Guild with equal number of spells, since there isn’t a particular magic school connected with a particular town.”
This is very akin to the Heroes IV style of building Mage Guilds. One element that does cross my mind when looking at this response, though; is the number of spells each magic school would actually provide. In Heroes IV, it went by level. Level 1 & 2 = 3, 3 & 4 = 2, 5 = 1. Exactly how many would you envisage? Also, is there one primary magic alignment for every castle? So, for Fortress, the primary would be Earth, and Fire and Chaos would be the secondary, or are they all equal?
“He will be able to learn it, as long as it belongs at the same time to a school that is connected with the Dungeon town (Death or Fire, but not Chaos since chaos is opposite of order).”
These subdivisions within spell schools make it quite complicating and perplexing. But I do feel it could work, but it would take getting used to. A non-opposite alignment having a segment of a magic school that is not really related to it is daring, and we can only find out if it would work by playing it in the game, which is impossible at this point.
“some should have a much much more greater chance to give a specific spell (e.g. Animate Dead in Necropolis) and others very low or no chance at all to give a non-appropriate spell, although it belongs to one of the schools connected with the town (e.g. Guardian Angel in Tower).”
That is an excellent idea, Svarog. It kills the proverbial two birds with one stone. 1. It reflects the towns uniqueness well, and it helps create a more authentic atmosphere. It would seem strange for a Necromancer to cast prayer.
2. It eliminates unwanted spells from the arsenal. If I were playing death, I would really want a life spell, because it would be a waste.
The unique spells for a specific magic school also ties in with this theme. Though, I don’t think that there should be too many of them, maybe 3 or so, because it would deprive the other towns of an excessive amount of spells.
“And no matter what you do to them (8, 10 or 12 towns), they still have access to the very same schools.”
What about 13 or 14 towns? Would it still operate in the same manner? (It would be interesting to see, because that could be on Ubisoft’s mind if they chose that system or similar)
“Only if those were Water or Earth exclusive (unique) spells.”
What about in the Life School subdivisions that belong to other alignments, but are still in the Life school? I am leaning toward answering yes. (About if you can learn them if you are Life)
“I believe (and that’s what my proposal’s based on) that towns should differ culturally, philosophically. So, no Ice towns, Oriental or Jungle! Or Dragon town, also.”
Yes. But there have been very creative proposals. Look at my New Creatures thread, for example. It has literally hundreds of creatures suggested (maybe thousands) and a substantial amount of town lineups, too. These are not based on geographical areas. They too are based on mythology.
““Seeing as it isn’t one town owning a spell school, there would be 8 different spell schools for 8 different towns. But if you add 4 more towns, there are still 8 spell schools.”
So what?”
So what? The factor here is that you are still sharing the same amount of spells and schools among a smaller amount of towns. I would think it would need to be altered to fit the characteristics of these towns, so that there are less spells. Also, the number of schools available would have to be redefined, as would the system of alignments/opposite alignments, etc.
“Yeah, I know. It’s amazing how this game influences our view on mythology and creatures, but trust me on this one – trolls DO explode on sunlight.”
OK. I’ll take your word for it here. But I’d rather associate them with bridges in the Heroes series, as that has been done throughout. Changing the theme now would result in confusion. (As it did for me)
“but I’m not talking about an army morale here. (I think there should be no such thing)”
No total army morale? Hmmm. I think that would be, overall, quite difficult to comprehend. The difficulties being that the hero’s morale would have to be defined, as well as the ones who are in no direct danger. Grouping it would be best, and then applying the individual bonuses/negatives on top of them to define the creatures morale further. 2 systems would work more soundly, in my opinion.
Enjoy your QP Svarog, it is very new (The first I have given)
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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dushan
Hired Hero
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posted January 17, 2004 10:07 AM |
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I like your ideas, Svarog. I enjoyed reading your post. Definitely agree that "Stronghold is a town of might, it will have only access to 1 school – Chaos".
BTW, Griffins and gargoyles are not "good" creatures.
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pixie
Hired Hero
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posted January 17, 2004 08:54 PM |
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Svarog,i like the idea of an aquatic town VERY much
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ScipioMagnus
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 17, 2004 09:22 PM |
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Well, Svarog, you play Age of Mythology or I'm a lich.
Leviathan, Kraken and Scylla are really too nearby of AOM.
But don't worry, I like your idea!
The 8 school of magic is great, but I would add something :
Let say a tower wizard take out a necropolis.
He goes in the guild, and learn Death Ripple.
It's supposed to be normal?
So, as you say, no black spell in the good guild, but also, every good heroes cannot learn chaos spell, or school of magic (fire, water, earth...) that doesn't go with his Castle.
A good player should also cannot recruit black heroes, until he gets a black town.
That's my opinion, I'm new here, and i'm really happy to see that many people continue playing HOMM.
A little suggestion like that : What of a RTS HOMM?
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All what is good for dog is good for me
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BoogieMan
Famous Hero
The John of Spades
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posted January 18, 2004 02:06 PM |
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some changes in the creature line-ups
For Fortress, instead of the Blob we could have a Pygmy that blows poison darts. I know they're native to jungles but I think they could fit in the swamp too if we picture them as being, let's say, more arboreal.
For the Aquatic town, the Pirate issue has already been discussed and it was concluded that it should go.
Another problem IMO regards the Oceanid and the Nereid that are virtually the same thing (Nereid = water nymph belonging to the Mediterranean Sea; Oceanid = water nymph belonging to the ocean). See here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/nymphs.html
A viable solution here would be the Triton which also belongs to Greek mythology and is represented as having the body of a man with the tail of a fish, but sometimes also with the forefeet of a horse. See here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/triton.html
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The BoogieMan wrote ... and saw that it was good.
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