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gnomes2169
Honorable
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Duke of the Glade
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posted April 12, 2011 08:38 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:16, 13 Apr 2011.
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Now, Elodin. I remember that in the opening scentance your second paragraph of the post that had you silenced, you semi-ranted that the anti-theists were wrong for some reason or another.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 12, 2011 09:34 PM |
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Quote:
Well. To give a feedback to the temp ban/silencing in the OSM of elodin. I as well think it was way way over the line.
I don't understand why he should have exactly a week off, nor do I understand what makes the applied rule apply in said thread, but not in other threads.
Indeed. Why does the standard not apply to this thread as well, where people are flaunting "offtopic and irrelevance" that Angelito promised would be "handled immediately."
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gnomes2169
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Duke of the Glade
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posted April 12, 2011 09:56 PM |
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I think, and I may me wrong here, that they were not deleted or penalized because the conversation slowly evolved in that direction. So the topic slowly morphed into what they were, in fact, talking about. Sure, it might have gone off topic, but you could see a direction to how it got there.
For instance, no one jumped out of a helicopter, shot the president and said "For the Gestappo!". That is completely off topic in all of our threads currently running...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 12, 2011 11:12 PM |
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Elodin, there is one in the CC which may properly apply to you, and it does not depends of the logic or the truth of your posts, but about the general trail the leave:
6) NO provocation or aggravation.
Provocation is unfriendly behavior that causes anger or resentment from others. Aggravation is causing, continuing or increasing irritation or trouble. This includes being a detriment to the peacekeeping of the forums.
There is no need to argue for that, it is not about arguments or who is right. Sadly, after one year and one million quotes, you still not got a single friend here, go figure why...
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Era II mods and utilities
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted April 13, 2011 01:03 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:04, 13 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
Elodin, there is one in the CC which may properly apply to you, and it does not depends of the logic or the truth of your posts, but about the general trail the leave:
6) NO provocation or aggravation.
Provocation is unfriendly behavior that causes anger or resentment from others. Aggravation is causing, continuing or increasing irritation or trouble. This includes being a detriment to the peacekeeping of the forums.
There is no need to argue for that, it is not about arguments or who is right. Sadly, after one year and one million quotes, you still not got a single friend here, go figure why...
That has to do with someone posting things to provoke others, not with for example anti-theists being irritated because someone said something other about religion than religion are delusional or liberals being irritated when someone says something other than conservatives are delusional or people who hate America being irritated with those who say that America is a great place to live.
I could quote several people who constantly bash religion/religious people, which under your definition would be considered provocation.
Including you.
Some people just are unwilling to tolerate any viewpoint that differs from their own and seek to silence the voices that do not reflect their own message. Such people what to speak very strongly about the viewpoints of others but get upset if someone else presents the other side of the issues with equal vigor.
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Revelation
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 13, 2011 04:07 AM |
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I respect religious people, all my family is religious, but simply we don't talk about how should be. Everyone is following his own belief or delusions. I don't consider you religious or christian, more of a trouble maker, which picked religion as a cheap way to piss others around, when everybody sees blue, you says it's yellow.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 13, 2011 09:42 AM |
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Anyone, correct me, if I summarize things wrongly.
@ Elodin.
allow me a longer answer, and allow me to state, that this post is not meant to insult you in any way.
I don't think that the moderators give conflicting messages. In my opinion they are just not keen on enforcing the CoC like a police force - however, a certain chemistry of certain people posting leaves them no other choice.
In many cases the problem can be identified when we look at the meaning of the word "delusion":
Quote:
A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated that is held with vehemence.
YOU hold a belief - most notably and as a stone on which most everything else is founded, the belief that your interpretation of a certain religion is the right one and that you know the truth and have been "illuminated" -, and with vehemence, I think, we can safely say that. It may be mistaken or not, that's not even the point (but usually fastly becomes one, when people make an effort to try and explain to you where they think you ARE mistaken), but it is certainly not substantiated - at least not for the rest of this board, because you cannot provide any substancial evidence for your personal claim, which is in the nature of things; it's called BELIEF, after all, not TRUTH.
Consequently, a sizable part of this board is applying the definition I quoted, and this has nothing to do with overstepping borders or being hostile or insulting - it's just the plain, naked truth and simple fact, whether you believe it or not.
Now, when we discuss something mundane and profane this is no problem.
However, when an issue is nearing your, allow me to call it so, no offense meant, "delusion", discussion becomes a bit strained: USUALLY in discussions people think of course they are right, but most of the time they know that they just MIGHT be wrong, that someone else may be right, or at least, that the own opinion may have a slight hole or inconsistency or that an aspect was overlooked and so on.
Not so, when it comes to discussing something that borders on religion and you are part of the discussion.
In this case, it's no discussion anymore: instead you start to "correct lies and false claims", naturally, since you are the one owning the truth, and you don't allow even a small chance that you MIGHT be wrong - even though the only proof is your claim. Make no mistake - it's not WHAT you say, that is the problem: that may be right or wrong and can be discussed. The problem is that you are presenting yourself as the minister and owner of absolute truth, as an illuminated disciple of the Almighty and claim absolute authority, and you would never even consider that you may be wrong, not even in some small issue, and so you basically do not allow discussion of what you say, since what you say is right by default and cannot be object of discussion. Which is what everyone aggravates.
And it is, what basically everyone calls delusional. Everyone including yourself, mind you, when it comes to others doing comparable things.
The simple truth is, that while you have the right to believe everything and anything you want - and to say what you believe -, you have no right to demand, others should concede that what you believe is RIGHT and TRUE. You may believe that it is right and true - why believe it otherwise? -, but that doesn't make it so, otherwise it wouldn't be a belief anymore.
Also, "proof", in this case is not an inductive thing. You can't say, I believe in 2+2=4, which everyone knows is right, so it's logical to assume that everything else I believe in is true as well.
Anyway, what the mods are reacting to is the fact, that when it comes down to nailing what IS making the OSM such a cesspit sometimes, that it's your "delusion" (apply definition - no offense meant)- most of the time that provokes people to harsh words, mostly out of frustration: your "being righter than the rest", even though in questions of belief right and true would be undeterminable by default.
This is what the mods, and correct me, someone, if I'm wrong, try to communicate, with no success, therefore they turned the screw a notch.
Since I wrote so much now, I can write a bit more now. 
Let's illustrate it with the atheism drama.
True, saying "There is no God" sounds pretty authoritative, but it's not STRICTLY wrong to say that something doesn't exist whose existance haven't been proven. Replace God with, say, ghosts, telepathy, or the aliens from Planet Claire.
Reason DEMANDS to say about assumed unproven things they do not exist (even though in fact it may later be found that they DO exist after all), because rationally it mnakes no sense to promote everything everyone can possibly imagine into the realm of the possible, just because an idea may be communicated with words. Of course everyone can BELIEVE otherwise, and even though it may sound paradox, this is NOT irrational: It has been proven that every sufficiently complex system contains elements that CANNOT be proven one way or another. Currently, it would look like, for example, that the question whether the number of prime number twins is infinite or finite, cannot be proven one way or another.
In my mind there is absolutely no need to discuss such a claim. I concede that someone may say so, but in the end it's of no use. If I was you, Elodin, I'd simply say, that for me this would look different, I would believe in the existance of a very specific God, and that it had a reason that it would be called "BELIEF" and not "KNOWLEDGE". Then I would simply ask the question, whether the statement "There is no God" wouldn't cross the border from simple non-existance out of mindlessness (not realizing a possibility there might be) to belief, if uttered with conviction and assuredness (as opposed to the statement "I wouldn't know of any God").
However, one could discuss the REASONS why some people believe this and some believe something else, which would be a lot more interesting than the question true or false.
Ultimately, I just realize that it is much simpler: questions of BELIEF are questions of belief, because they - currently at least - are unproven.
That makes a discussion about whether they are right or wrong pretty useless: if it could be proven one way or another it wouldn't be called belief or religion anymore.
You, Elodin, however, insist on your personal belief and religion being right and true, but just because someone believes really hard his belief isn't transcended to anything beyond belief, which is the heart of the problem and the reason why I came up with the definition of "delusion".
I repeat, if it comes to belief, discussing true or false, right or wrong, is useless. Interesting may be the reasons WHY people are believing this or that and disbelieving other things.
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I'd still like to know whether a thread opener can set "thread rules" or not - I repeat, I don't care one way or another, but it would be good to know.
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 13, 2011 12:20 PM |
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Of course a thread maker can set whatever 'rules' they wish, but unless it breaches the CoC there is no way of enforcing those rules. The issue seems to come down to respect. Both sides seem to demand respect for their beliefs..yet do not feel the need to give the same in return. Atheist are 'anti-theist and out to bash religion', while theist are 'delusional' (others words not mine). For some reason everybody MUST be right. There IS no actual legitimate discussion. It's a bunch of preschoolers throwing mud at each other.
What is worse everybody demands 'action', but when those actions affect THEM..oh woe to all and sundry. If the CoC is not applied equally to all, it is not even worth the bytes it takes up.
I'm staying drama free, so have stepped back a little..by requests of some of the other moderators, and other reasons I will not go into. I still moderate..read posts and if I see something I will make sure somebody else is aware. I just don't have the heart for another round of 'hunt the witch' right now.
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Message received.
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angelito
Honorable
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proud father of a princess
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posted April 13, 2011 01:14 PM |
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@ ALL
Please keep that feedback thread serious. otherwise we can move it to the VW aswell.
Non related posts deleted.
And one more note: A feedback thread is for FEEDBACK, not for WHINING.
Nobody gets harmed by getting silenced for a specific amount of time. he just isn't able to post in a forum on the internet for a while. It is not like this is about life and death. If it is that serious for some of you, you really should consider contacting a doctor who could help you to find back into real life again. HC = cardiac pacemaker!!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 13, 2011 02:56 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:58, 13 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated that is held with vehemence.
You and certain others hold the belief that there is no god and argue until you are blue in the face that no god exists despite not having any evidence that he does not exist. I do have evidence God exists. The universe (considering the laws of thermodynamics and current observations), holy texts, historical writings, my own personal experiences, the personal experiences of others, miracles that I have witnessed, ect.
Therefore if any position is "delusional" it is that of a person who argues that no god exists.
Quote:
In this case, it's no discussion anymore: instead you start to "correct lies and false claims", naturally, since you are the one owning the truth, and you don't allow even a small chance that you MIGHT be wrong - even though the only proof is your claim.
The lies I correct are the ones told about what Christians/the Bible teaches.
Certain people like to make all kind of bizarre claims about what the Bible/Christians teach that anyone on the street would laugh at because they know such claims are lies. I quote the actual words of the Bible to counter the lies told about Christians/the Bible.
Quote:
The simple truth is, that while you have the right to believe everything and anything you want - and to say what you believe -, you have no right to demand, others should concede that what you believe is RIGHT and TRUE. You may believe that it is right and true - why believe it otherwise? -, but that doesn't make it so, otherwise it wouldn't be a belief anymore.
It is untrue that I demand anyone believe anything. You argue that no god exists so you must be demanding for me to accept your belief.
Quote:
Anyway, what the mods are reacting to is the fact, that when it comes down to nailing what IS making the OSM such a cesspit sometimes, that it's your "delusion" (apply definition - no offense meant)- most of the time that provokes people to harsh words, mostly out of frustration: your "being righter than the rest", even though in questions of belief right and true would be undeterminable by default.
Before i EVER posted one word on the forum anti-theists were calling Christians delusional and other insults. Those same people seem unable to handle their dogma being questioned.
Would you like me to quote what certain posters were saying about and to religious people before I came around?
Quote:
You, Elodin, however, insist on your personal belief and religion being right and true, but just because someone believes really hard his belief isn't transcended to anything beyond belief, which is the heart of the problem and the reason why I came up with the definition of "delusion".
Most of the people who have ever lived have been religious. Atheists compose only a very very tiny fraction of all the people who have ever lived or who will ever live. And Atheism is in worldwide decline. It is amazing that you insist that the vast majority of the human race is delusional while your own belief (that you have no proof for) that there is no god is the only non-delusional belief.
If you insist theists are delusional for saying "there is a god" then you must insist atheists are delusional for saying "there is no god."
If you insist on your right to call someone else or their position delusional don't get angry if they call you or your position delusional.
Now, if you wish to continue to debate about whether theists are delusional I suggest you do so in another thread.
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Cepheus
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Far-flung Keeper
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posted April 13, 2011 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
Before i EVER posted one word on the forum anti-theists were calling Christians delusional and other insults
This is a major overreaction. I wouldn't normally comment or care, but it's far from the first time you've posted something along the line of "the anti-theists here hate me". I think people critical of your posting style have no intention of riling up "anti-theism" or animosity towards anybody's beliefs, but are probably annoyed at of what they consider a holier-than-thou attitude, hypersensitivity, frequent petty tattle-taling, internet martyrdom and drama-rousing stuff. I know I'm sick of it, anyway. Religious discrimination has rarely ever been condoned at HC in my experience. Don't tell me there is no respect here for theists, since the only "anti-theist" who expressed vocal, open hate towards religion recently was ripped to pieces and admonished by... a gang of atheists.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 13, 2011 03:30 PM |
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*Sigh*
I don't discuss theists, Elodin, just YOU and YOUR way. The reason is, that I know a lot of them, but NO ONE of them is claiming to be absolutely RIGHT in his or her belief or that his or her belief is absolutely true. They believe it, but if they could prove that their belief was right and true, it was no belief anymore.
And let me correct you in one personal detail. I never said, there is no God. I just said, I was dead certain and prepared to bet my soul on it, that the God described in the Bible would not exist - he would either be different than described or not exist at all. In short - I believe that a lot of what the Bible says cannot be true.
I don't think that makes me an atheist per se. In theory I could STILL even be a Christian.
But that's off-topic.
I mean, you don't want to claim, all Christians - or theists - argue the way you do, right? This board is full of people who believe in something, something they may or may not have pretty good reason to believe in, just the way you do and you have. However, they are not prepared to be lectured by you OR ANYONE ELSE (and I could name an atheist here) about what is right to believe and what is wrong and what is true and what not. Most of them, that is.
Now, I don't want to argue with you, Elodin. There is nothing to argue. I just made an effort to try and explain to you the effect you have on this board and why. Peace.
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Elvin
Admirable
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Endless Revival
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posted April 13, 2011 03:32 PM |
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Quote:
You and certain others hold the belief that there is no god and argue until you are blue in the face that no god exists despite not having any evidence that he does not exist. I do have evidence God exists. The universe (considering the laws of thermodynamics and current observations), holy texts, historical writings, my own personal experiences, the personal experiences of others, miracles that I have witnessed, ect.
Therefore if any position is "delusional" it is that of a person who argues that no god exists.
The irony is overwhelming. It is no surprise people have trouble taking you seriously when you write things like that. That said the delusional part made my day ^^
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted April 13, 2011 05:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:20, 13 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
Before i EVER posted one word on the forum anti-theists were calling Christians delusional and other insults
This is a major overreaction. I wouldn't normally comment or care, but it's far from the first time you've posted something along the line of "the anti-theists here hate me". I think people critical of your posting style have no intention of riling up "anti-theism" or animosity towards anybody's beliefs, but are probably annoyed at of what they consider a holier-than-thou attitude, hypersensitivity, frequent petty tattle-taling, internet martyrdom and drama-rousing stuff.
No, it is a fact. I was not around for the beginning of the "Why I gave up believing in God" thread. From the beginning of the thread you can find atheists calling religious people delusional and other less than flattering terms. I could quote literally thousands of posts by JJ, Corribus, and others making such statements about religion/religious people.
Unfortunately some people try to paint me as the reason atheists use the language they do. But that is obviously false since they used such language about religious people before I even joined.
JJ
Quote:
I don't discuss theists, Elodin, just YOU and YOUR way.
Oh? How many quotes would you like of you saying all sorts of nasty stuff about religion/religious people?
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And let me correct you in one personal detail. I never said, there is no God.
If have now decided you are agnostic, that is wonderful news! You are moving in the right direction.
But you have in fact said things like:
posted October 23, 2009 04:49 AM
Quote:
"God" is simply a different name for "we have not the slightest at the moment how things really work, what we live in, how it has come to pass, what the basic elements of reality are and some couple billions other questions".
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Revelation
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted April 13, 2011 06:39 PM |
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Guys.. this is feedback thread.. 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 13, 2011 10:27 PM |
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@ Certain members.
*Ahem*
Quote:
@ ALL
Please keep that feedback thread serious. otherwise we can move it to the VW aswell.
Non related posts deleted.
And one more note: A feedback thread is for FEEDBACK, not for WHINING.
Nobody gets harmed by getting silenced for a specific amount of time. he just isn't able to post in a forum on the internet for a while. It is not like this is about life and death. If it is that serious for some of you, you really should consider contacting a doctor who could help you to find back into real life again. HC = cardiac pacemaker!!
Please, do not ignore the mod. Thank you.
I think that we could throe posters a few more QP's in the Baby Making thread...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 14, 2011 12:51 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated that is held with vehemence.
You and certain others hold the belief that there is no god and argue until you are blue in the face that no god exists despite not having any evidence that he does not exist. I do have evidence God exists. The universe (considering the laws of thermodynamics and current observations), holy texts, historical writings, my own personal experiences, the personal experiences of others, miracles that I have witnessed, ect.
Therefore if any position is "delusional" it is that of a person who argues that no god exists.
Sorry kid, but logic does not work that way.
There is no evidence for God, hence the weak athism of "no evidence of God equals that no such thing exists" is a undeniably logical position.
The fact you can not comprehend this, is just silly.
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Elvin
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Endless Revival
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posted April 14, 2011 01:00 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 13:04, 14 Apr 2011.
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That or.. Can we please let it go for the time being* ?
* Till you make angelito delete everything
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JollyJoker
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posted April 15, 2011 07:08 AM |
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For Christ's sake, it's worse than ever - I don't think, I need to point out the thread, right?
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 15, 2011 05:01 PM |
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Unfortunately, no. When he responds, I think that I'll just be nice and silent...
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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