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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 05, 2010 09:47 PM |
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The problem is, some threads in the OSM grow that strong, it is nearly impossible to read all the new stuff every day, understand all its meanings, try to realize which posts connects to which former post (even quoting doesn't help that much, becuase the quoted post could be 5 days old, and you can't expect me searching all pages back to find all the connections...).
I am sure, if I would take time and re read the whole religion thread again, in a concentrated way of course, and this would take at least 1 week for sure, I could apply at least 15 penalties and 7 silences.
As soon as we see COC breaking passages, we should act immediately. But as written above, often it is just hard to follow. This is why we always say: "Members, use the feedback threads!". Not only for +qp proposals, but also if you find COC breaking issues. Especially if you are aimed at yourself.
More mods in the OSm won't help much, because you can't "split" the posts which have to be read.
We need the help of the members here.
And sometimes, when you feel the mood in the OSM is quite cool again, you tend to NOT apply penalties for some things, because you know it will probably heat up again and the balance will be gone.
Problem is, if you refuse handing out a needed penalty too often, you will have a hard time giving one later and then explain why you didn't apply it earlier for a similar COC breaking issue...
Anyway, it seems it is again time to tighten the reins.
Expect a higher gear during the next weeks until the posting quality (of specific members) has reached a normal level again.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 05, 2010 10:21 PM |
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Quote:
Ok, the problem is intended insults vs what a person defines as an insult. Since the intention doesn't really matter, it is what the person sees as an insult. [...]
Now I am more then willing to do that, with the understanding that perceived insults would be the key. Which I KNOW would not make ANYBODY happy.
Exactly! Were well put. I completely agree that the intention cannot be known and the word can always be interpreted wrongly. Remember, if we remove all interpretations, all we've left are words, words can't hurt anyone, unless we choose so.
I'd like to add, if one only penalizes upon the standard of the moderator him/herself, like JJ suggests, I think we risk seeing good going debates suddenly getting penalties (like Angelito's unfortunate examples with Will) for no apparent reason.
I believe the point of this place, is to share information, so the idea of penalizing for insults seems like the wrong approach to me, I'd much rather have the focus on the actual information and any type of non-information, independent of the character, should the threated as spam and moved accordingly.
So instead of focusing on insults I'd much rather have people focused on spam, like, I think, it is spam when starting to make personal "attacks" in a thread about religion, or that it does not really add any information to a statement to say it is moronic, etc.
I think that's the main problem, not that someone is over sensitive against what is insults and not, but that they bring their feelings/interpretations into the matter, by writing back "you insulted me", in stead of taking it over hcm, and thereby clouding the thread.
I think it can be used as an objective measure what is on topic and what isn't.
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Living time backwards
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 06, 2010 05:56 AM |
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Jolly, I have to disagree..and let me explain why. Obviously I am not going to be insulted if somebody questions my sexuality (for instance) and would be hard pressed to say that such was an insult. However, somebody else might be VERY insulted. Even as a Moderator, I have no right to say "Oh hush, you can't be insulted over that." Nor can I know for a fact the thoughts of somebody who posts what somebody else might consider an insult.
Let us take the N word for example. I've had people call me it, lightheartedly..because I do hang around a few that use the word regularly. It is not an insult to me. They don't take it as an insult if I return the favor, nor if any of the others in their group do so. However, let an outsider do it..and it IS an insult to them. So a lot of penalties would fly, which I don't have a problem with. Being a Moderator is not a popularity contest.
Not that any of this will sink in to anybody though, it hasn't yet, why would it now? (This is an example of a insult  ).
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Message received.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted April 06, 2010 07:25 AM |
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Laws are written with words. When laws (words) are being enforced it has a real effect on people. An HC example is a mod enforcing the COC words and penalizing someone. So to say words can't hurt is inaccurate.
Some people here do not read what you write due to your reputation. This is a forum. The point of posting is to be read.
I lost track of why we're talking about the VW.
VW insult: You are retarded.
OSM insults:
I don't have to look up the word "trolling." I just look at your posts to see examples of it.
an eloquent troll who has now resorted to cheap appeals to sympathy
See the difference?
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 07:56 AM |
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Quote:
Jolly, I have to disagree..and let me explain why. Obviously I am not going to be insulted if somebody questions my sexuality (for instance) and would be hard pressed to say that such was an insult. However, somebody else might be VERY insulted. Even as a Moderator, I have no right to say "Oh hush, you can't be insulted over that." Nor can I know for a fact the thoughts of somebody who posts what somebody else might consider an insult.
Let us take the N word for example. I've had people call me it, lightheartedly..because I do hang around a few that use the word regularly. It is not an insult to me. They don't take it as an insult if I return the favor, nor if any of the others in their group do so. However, let an outsider do it..and it IS an insult to them. So a lot of penalties would fly, which I don't have a problem with. Being a Moderator is not a popularity contest.
Not that any of this will sink in to anybody though, it hasn't yet, why would it now? (This is an example of a insult ).
Mytical, if someone FEELS insulted, but someone DIDN'T WANT TO insult, the usual procedure will be, that the insulted SAYS SO (I feel offended by this) and the offender, since he didn't want to insult, will apologize one way or another, take it back and so on.
I don't see any moderation reason then.
However, if it comes to a discussion whether the offended has a right to do so and whether it was an insult or not, it looks different, though: what do you do, when someone feels offended, but the offender says, well, that's childish: I didn't want to offend, but I won't apologize for a normal statement that is not forbidden by the CoC.
Do you want to moderate that? I mean, if you take active part in internet discussion, you shouldn't feel offended for every little thing.
Now, that has nothing to do with mod's duties, right? If someone does not feel offended by some stronger language, but the moderator feels, that this kind of language should not be used in his or her forum, then the mod should make this unmistakably clear, right? Cut the crap or...
In my book that leaves for a mod to watch the spirit of a specific discussion and step in, when it gets all too personal.
This point is long past in a certain thread.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 06, 2010 08:13 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 08:17, 06 Apr 2010.
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One of the problems is some people like to use strong rhetoric in their arguemnts yet can't handle it when others use strong rhetoric in theirs.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 06, 2010 08:38 AM |
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While some people ask serious questions, get accused of rhetoric (when it is not), and never actually get a straight answer. *shrugs*
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Message received.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 06, 2010 09:55 AM |
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This thread is a prime example of why the it is harder to moderate the OSM nowadays. I just checked this thread yesterday and already has this gained another page. A few years back I would have had to wait till next week for this to go to next page. The amount of activity has increased a lot. It's no wonder why you, mods, don't have the time or motivation to read through all what goes on in the OSM.
As to what comes to the penalties I think if two people are unable to settle things peacefully and resort to insults against the other person they should be penalised without remorse. They won't like it. So what? You don't have to be everyone's friend here. You're supposed to be the guy that keeps order no matter if everybody hates you as long as it works. If the line is to allow stating ones mind about christian, jews, muslims, germans, finns, swedes, serbs or whatever group some people might be a part of here then keep the line! Don't give in to a few persons tantrums that saying their group is stupid is wrong if such is allowed for all groups. Listening to feedback is good. Acting on everyone's wants is not.
On a side note:
I remember some threads that got a thorough cleaning and a few penalties to the flaming persons and warnings to spamming ones but I haven't seen things like that lately. Is it too much work? I remember them working out pretty well.
PS. You are? I just don't seem to notice you. Maybe a sign? 
PPS. Damn there's a lot of rant there. But I'm not good on words so consider what I said as I would have said it neutrally. I didn't mean to rant that much.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 10:27 AM |
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Hey, I got an idea!
Let's ask Val to enable an option to mods.
The mods would have the ability to shut down the "quote reply" option for a specific thread or user.
That would simply
A) stop quote wars instantly when one starts
B) stop people who respond with tons of quotes every time instead of making use of them as intended (to reply to specified parts of the text)
When you have to write a quoteless wall of text, it changes the whole thing Sure you can ofc quote manually with quotation marks... uhh.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 06, 2010 11:19 AM |
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Quote from JJ, directed at Elodin, page 56 of the God thread:
Quote:
Well, you must feel helpeless, if you turn to the mods. Anyway, you are a liar.
...
You are getting really cheap now. What do you think why I ignored you these last months?
I'll just leave that here, point a finger at JJ and start laughing hysterically
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 11:56 AM |
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Ah, clipped and out of context quotes!
Yes, always a good method to make a mature point and further good and fair discussion, thank you very much.
I daresay, I'm generally overwhelmed by the maturity of posts shown here in this thread and by the really great and mature posts others than our hot-heads in the religion thread are making by the dozen.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 06, 2010 02:19 PM |
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@doomforge
Quote:
Let's ask Val to enable an option to mods.
The mods would have the ability to shut down the "quote reply" option for a specific thread or user.
Now that's the first good idea I've heard all day!
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 06, 2010 03:36 PM |
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I have to apologize.
I was just about to clean my windows in the living room, while all of a sudden my bucket (filled with soap and water) slipped out of my hands onto the monitor.
And you know what? To my strong dismay, I had the OSM feedback thread right opened that time. So all "dirty" posts from the last 3 pages seem to be wiped away.
I hope you are not to angry with me 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 06, 2010 03:40 PM |
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While we may disagree with you at times this is just what we were hoping for. 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 06, 2010 03:47 PM |
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You appear to have missed about 70 pages.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 05:01 PM |
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@Doomforge
I don't think that is possible  .
Quotes are part of BB Code functionality which are third-party and cannot be changed. If you don't show this "Quote reply" button for a specific user or thread, it will still be possible to write quotes BB code in post.
Certainly I never use that button, I always use directly BB code.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 06, 2010 05:28 PM |
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Quote:
Laws are written with words. When laws (words) are being enforced it has a real effect on people. An HC example is a mod enforcing the COC words and penalizing someone. So to say words can't hurt is inaccurate.
That isn't the word that hurt. That's the people, who enforces the information they've recieved through the word, who does an action, which may hurt.
Quote:
The point of posting is to be read.
Not my point. My point is to learn, i.e. share information. I don't mind if others learn from me as well, but I am here for me, not for others.
Quote:
A) stop quote wars instantly when one starts
Yes and start wars of even more unreadable text, I think.
Quote:
B) stop people who respond with tons of quotes every time instead of making use of them as intended (to reply to specified parts of the text)
I don't follow, isn't that exactly what people do with tons of quotes (replies to a specified part of the text)?
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Living time backwards
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 06, 2010 06:50 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:50, 06 Apr 2010.
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@ OhforfSake
Would you please stop creating a quote war in the feedback thread?
Thanks in advance.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 06, 2010 06:51 PM |
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Quote:
You appear to have missed about 70 pages.
Some aren't easy to satisfy it seems...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 06, 2010 07:17 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 19:21, 06 Apr 2010.
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Just saying.
KillDelete them all and let God sort them out
Oh and JJ, Elodin usually has 'contexts' just like yours.
In fact, God (whether he exists or not) knows how identical you two have become.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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