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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 12, 2005 04:13 PM |
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Is this a joke? Coming from China who doesn't acknowledge the Tiananmen Square Massacre they tell Japan to face up to history. And if they don't they should rethink their bid for permanent membership in the UN.
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"Only a country that respects history, takes responsibility for past history...can take greater responsibility in the international community," he added.
I guess I just don't understand some people.
I think you do understand. Every country is in it for
themselves. China invaded Tibet and is busily going about
trying to destroy the Tibetan culture. Of course, to them,
that is ok, though I don't think the Tibetans agree with
that. Such diplomatic tripe talk as you quoted above is
just the usual BS.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 12, 2005 07:56 PM |
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Actually...
This is a very old relationship between China and Japan. The two have never been friendly since the beginning of written records. In fact it is so old that it dates back to before the arrival of written records. The Japanese claim they originated on the island. This is despite the common belief held by most scientists today:
 http://www.archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html
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Most scholars believe that people from the Asian continent came to the Japanese archipelago in two migrations. An early wave brought the Jomon culture--hunter-gatherers who made pottery--to Japan more than 10,000 years ago. A second migration began about 2,300 years ago, when the Yayoi people, entering from the Korean Peninsula, brought weaving, metalworking, and rice culture to Japan. First appearing on the southwestern island of Kyushu, by ca. A.D. 300 Yayoi culture had spread throughout most of Japan, altering all local cultures south of Hokkaido, the northernmost island. Michael F. Hammer and Satoshi Horai are examining the extent to which the Jomon did or did not contribute genetically to the modern Japanese. Current hypotheses can be classified as replacement, hybridization, or transformation. In the first, Yayoi immigrants replaced the Jomon people. Hybridization theories claim that modern Japanese are descended from both groups, in which case they should have genes deriving from both the Jomon and Yayoi people. Transformation theories posit that modern Japanese people gradually evolved from the Jomon. Hammer and Horai, based on their study of the Y chromosome, conclude that hybridization, a mixing of Jomon and Yayoi stocks, is the most likely explanation for the origin of modern Japanese.
I don't speak for anyone else, but I personally tend to lean toward research based on facts rather than myth/legend passed down via word-of-mouth.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 13, 2005 01:48 AM |
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I dont think we need to go that far Consis. The current disagreement is about how the Japanese treat their fascist WW2 past. A recent decision of the Japs governemnt was to present a more pacifist and less aggressionist image of Japan during WW2 in schoolbooks. This was the reason for the protests, since China's population suffered true massacres under Japanese occupation (PH could enlighten us on the numbers).
And about Tibet, nuff with the cliche already. The Cultural Revolution in China ended years ago. Theres no opression or intolerance towards Tibetian culture nowdays. Religion is allowed, as is language, as is autonomy. Independence would be desirable, I agree, but not as a way out of opression, but as historical continuation of centuries long Tibetan culture and as a unanimous expression of the will of the people of Tibet.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 13, 2005 02:42 AM |
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I'd certainly say that the attempts to represent Japan as more pacifist during that period fly in the face of the facts. Japan spent the best part of half a century conquering different parts of Asia and invading her weaker neighbours in land grabs. That kind of revisionism mirrors attempts in France to have the Algerian war represented as an honourable conflict from both sides (in reality it was a bloodbath). I also know of some British people, mostly right wing members of the British National Party who support representing the Empire period as a benevolent past with great benefits for the people the British conquered. I guess one could line it up with attempts in the States to have wounded knee declared a battle rather than the massacre it was, though to be fair AFAIK that happened in the immediate aftermath rather than today. It seems to be true though that the ancestors of the Japanese mostly came from the mainland. There were significant attempts to crush the native culture from what I've read on other sites. On tibet, AFAIK the Chinese consider it and Taiwan to be very much a part of China and are not very likely to give it independence anytime soon.
As for the respective attitudes of the Chinese and Japanese to their history, most countries seek to forget their past crimes. It's rare for the British to talk abou Dresden openly for example. The Chinese are certainly no innocents during that period, but overall the Japanese were responsible for horrific crimes in the country from the early 30s onwards. These included testing diseases and extremes on civlian populations for example in the similar way to the German doctors in the Holocaust camps. No prizes for geussing which western power employed a number of the staff of this centre after the war though, lets just say it can be abbreviated to three letters, the last of which is A. Then again, in all fairness when the Russians overan Manchuria in 1945 they were responsible for some pretty brutal acts too, not to mention the disappearance of a sizeable number of Japanese civilians.
I guess it's a period no-one wishes to talk too much about. As we say here, it's a can of worms. The Chinese want an appology from Japan for her crimes, Japan wants an appology from the US for the A-Bombs, Britain wants an appology from Germany for Coventry, Germany wants one from Britain for Dresden. I forsee only two solutions on this, either each country says:
"Look, we screwed up in the past when we (insert massacre or similar here) and are sorry"
OR we simply learn from our mistakes and try to make sure they don't happen again. I'd argue that by repeatedly antagonising eachother about history that we cannot change, we are not learning from the past. We shouldn't let what happened 50-60 years ago be a part of causing another conflict right now. Some causes are worthy ones, others though one suspects are brought up out of more political reasons.
I prefer the second option, we need to live in the present, not the past.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 13, 2005 07:29 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 13 Apr 2005
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Yes But...
I understand not lingering on the past but....
What about how easily the Japanese took over China? I would think the Chinese to have this be a lingering question on their mind. The Japanese were a much smaller country and yet they prevailed over the larger China. How should China prevent this from happening again? Do they use nuclear weapons? Nuclear weapons would only invite the rest of world to invade China; or any other country who uses them. This is the new philosophy of the modern era. So how does a country of this era conduct a war without infuriating the rest of the world?
The Chinese have accepted communism for the strength of unifying a once fractured China. China was a cespool of warring factions when the Japanese invaded. Warlords held the most power at the time. This only made it easier for the well disciplined and unified Japanese forces. The Japanese didn't have to fight all of China at once. They went faction by faction; piece by piece; and this gave the Japanese the advantage of numbers that they would not have had if China had been unified. Now the Chinese have started to embrace economic reform and their economy soars to quadrupled efficiency. Where they go from here is entirely their own choice.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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this_other_guy
Famous Hero
{0_o} heh...
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posted April 13, 2005 11:49 AM |
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China was a cespool of warring factions when the Japanese invaded. Warlords held the most power at the time.
Not true as far as I know. The only two "factions" at the time of the Japanese invasion were the Nationalists (The official Chinese government at that time) and the minority Communists.
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1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 13, 2005 02:12 PM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 13 Apr 2005
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Quote:
And about Tibet, nuff with the cliche already. The Cultural Revolution in China ended years ago. Theres no opression or intolerance towards Tibetian culture nowdays. Religion is allowed, as is language, as is autonomy. Independence would be desirable, I agree, but not as a way out of opression, but as historical continuation of centuries long Tibetan culture and as a unanimous expression of the will of the people of Tibet.
How nice of you to trivialize what has happened in Tibet.
Lets see, here are some facts:
1) 1.2 million Tibetans have died as a result of the
occupation
2) 1 in 10 Tibetans have been in prison or a forced labor
camp for more than 10 years.
3) Destroying Tibetan Buddhism is a key part of China's
policy. Nuns and monks have been singled out for public
humiliation and over 6,000 monasteries have been
destroyed. Freedom of religion? I think not
4) There are hundreds of thousands of refugees living in
India, including the Dalai Lama, the true spiritual head
of Tibet..
5) The Chinese have instituted a policy of of encouraging
Chinese settlers in Tibet. Today, they out number the
Tibetans in Lhasa, the capital.
All this, and no hint of an apology much less an attempt
to redress the actions started during Mao's era. The
cultural revolution may be over, but the effects linger
on.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 13, 2005 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
Not true as far as I know. The only two "factions" at the time of the Japanese invasion were the Nationalists (The official Chinese government at that time) and the minority Communists.
Warlords had been very active in China until very shortly before the invasion though, right up until the mid to late 1920s. Though their presence and during the actual invasion was minimal, their affect on China's chance of repelling the invasion was considerable.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 14, 2005 02:24 AM |
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How nice of you to trivialize what has happened in Tibet.
The cultural revolution may be over, but the effects linger on.
I'm not trivilizing what happened, I'm stating whats happening, cos you said "China is busily going about trying to destroy the Tibetan culture".
Otherwise, I agree that the effects are still felt and it was a horrible thing to do.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 14, 2005 07:07 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In the latest flare-up between the two former rivals, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told reporters in New Delhi on Tuesday that Japan must "face up to history squarely" and that the protests should give Tokyo reason to rethink its bid for a permanent council seat.
Is this a joke? Coming from China who doesn't acknowledge the Tiananmen Square Massacre they tell Japan to face up to history. And if they don't they should rethink their bid for permanent membership in the UN.
As far as I know, it's been estimated that some 20 million Chinese were slaughtered by the Japanese after the invasion in the 30s. How many were killed in advance of that, during the imperialist era of pre-WWI, we can only guess...
Comparing this to the 1989 massacre, is like comparing Guantanam to the Nazi KZs of WWII.
When it comes to the Chinese reluctancy of admitting the Japanese into the UN Security Council, I guess it comes down to basic fear. Japan is China's only real rival in East Asia (India is further to the south, though it cannot be denied that the potential of India is currently greater than that of Japan), and so China is naturally loath to let them into the Security Council.
Also, Japan is one of the closest allies of the US in that area, if not the closest. They have also, in the past, acted as a puppet of the US, so it's no wonder that the Chinese isn't too keen on letting them become a member of the Security Council.
In additon to all this, Japan's economic power has been declining in the last few years, giving no justification whatsoever, as far as I can see, to their claim to a permanent Security Seat.
Also, Japan hasn't exactly acted diplomatic recently. They have just allowed corporations to search for oil in areas that the Japanese and the Chinese have been arguing about for years. Giving such permissions now, before the conflict has been solved, seems to me as nothing but folly.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 14, 2005 07:16 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 14 Apr 2005
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Perhaps...
...Because our agreement was to give full sovereignty back to the Japanese. Once Japanese regained full sovereignty, many American businesses that had been taking advantage of the American occupation of Japan would now be subject(the american definition) to Japanese authority. In turn, Japanese businesses with American ties(and even some American subsidiaries) might become less valuable on the stock market upon learning their business is now under a different authority.
Just a thought...
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 16, 2005 04:00 PM |
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I Want To Be Wrong
Please God let me be wrong. All that research I did on possible China/U.S. war could not have predicted this 'history book' mess. Please God let me be wrong....let me be wrong.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted April 18, 2005 05:01 PM |
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As of September this year I will be living in China.
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John says to live above hell.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 19, 2005 05:20 AM |
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good for u.
Gosh, are u some diplomatic child or something?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted April 19, 2005 10:01 AM |
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No.
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John says to live above hell.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 22, 2005 03:50 PM |
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Ho Hum....Saw It Coming
Quote:
"Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility and with feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind."
I guess we'll see if the Chinese people accept the apology. I wonder if the Chinese remember that it was the Japanese who took two atomic bombs. China should be more forgiving of the Japanese past methinks. Japan has paid the ultimate price for its trangressions during the war. It is the only country in the history of the world that has been ravaged by two indiscriminant nuclear blasts. And they continue to pay to this very day with fallout radiation.
A part of me wonders if the Chinese Communist government will tell its people that Japan has now formally apologized. If they were looking for the peoples' support in an agressive military campaign against the enemies off the coast of China then the CCP might try to withhold a Japanese apology from its own people; leading them to be more supportive of an anti-democratic Japanese/Taiwanese/South Korean alliance with the U.S.(stretching the imagination a bit there).
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 22, 2005 05:29 PM |
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Sure, the Japs took two a-bombs, but that only killed some 2 million or so directly and maybe another million (just guessing, btw - EDIT: Look below for corrections!). The Japanese genocides in WWII killed 20 million. That's quite a diference, unless, of course, you see it as Stalin. But 1 million deaths isn't just statistics, it's also 1 million tragedies...
As for the Chinese trying to whip up support for aggressive military action against neighbouring states, I don't think so. It's more likely that they're trying to milk this to get the Japanese to quit dealing out offshore oil concessions, in areas that China and Japan has been arguing about for ages.
The Japanese's actions here are really as undiplomatic as if the Norwegian government was to begin dealing out concessions in the disputed areas in the Barents Sea...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 22, 2005 09:19 PM |
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Actually Terje, the blast killed around 190.000 people, and around the same number died in the following years from radiation disease. So nowhere near 2-3 mill.
The hardest hit Japanese city during WW2 was Tokyo, who suffered 250.000 casualties during one nights bombing. The famous, or rather infamous fire-bomb raid.
Regards
Defreni
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privatehudson
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posted April 22, 2005 11:27 PM |
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I've seen variations on the figures with regards to the bombs, but 100-120,000 sounds about right if you take it up to 4 months after the blasts. According to most sources I've read though the effects of the radiation caused an awful lot less than that figure, probably less than 10,000 up until 1990.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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TitaniumAlloy
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Professional
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posted April 23, 2005 04:51 AM |
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I read alot about this when I went to Hiroshima, studying Japanese war history.
Actually, the death toll for radiation was much more than that.
In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the numbers had escalated up to around 350,000 lives by 1950.
That's much more than the blast. The blast only instantly killed around 110,000 Japanese instantly, small compared to the radiation damage.
Around the same numbers were killed in the Tokyo Fire Bombings, mostly civilians.
Approx. 1.2million Japanese were killed during WW2, and anyone can see that the 20million Chinese killed dwarfs those numbers, as Japan was only attacked on it's mainland right at the very end of WW2. The Soviet Union lost the most (25mil) but that's getting too off topic..
You can't compare the two. I agree that if Japan keeps acting the way they have been recently, this conflict is going to get really ugly really fast.
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John says to live above hell.
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