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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 23, 2005 09:22 AM |
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Quote:
Actually, the death toll for radiation was much more than that.
In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the numbers had escalated up to around 350,000 lives by 1950.
Good point, my bad. In my insomnia I missed that the figures I was looking at said 1950-1990 where they were noticeably smaller. The following comes from the Radiation Effects Research Foundation to clear things up though.
A census done in 1950 indicated that there where to that date 280,000 survivors of the bombings who claimed to have been exposed. The total population of the cities at the time of the blast was 560,000, which implies that something like 280,000 died in 5 years overall. Estimates of the number of deaths inside 2-4 months vary between 150,000 to 220,000, so actually more died in the immediate aftermath rather than lasting years whichever estimate you use (assuming you accept the 280,000 figure). I would say that 350,000 may be something of an exaggeration though as that would not leave 280,000 survivors but 210,000. It therefore seems to be around 70,000 to high.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 23, 2005 05:21 PM |
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I agree that if Japan keeps acting the way they have been recently, this conflict is going to get really ugly really fast.
About that: I heard on the radio this morning that Japanese protestors have been marching through the Chinese quarters of some Japanese cities.
They are apparently protesting against the Japanese government's excuse.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted April 24, 2005 06:36 AM |
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There has been some protests, but it's on a fairly small scale.
I mean, just today I saw riot guards stationed all around the Chinese embassy, but no riots.
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John says to live above hell.
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Roland
Adventuring Hero
Guardian of light
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posted April 24, 2005 02:07 PM |
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Edited By: Roland on 24 Apr 2005
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china
Consis said:
""With President Bush in office and blatantly proclaiming to the world that he will spread his democracy and freedom where it is needed,""
"There are thousands upon thousands of internet links to detail the increase of the Chinese economic productivity"
""and provide arms sales ""
The last phrase here is the mots shinning one.
yes it is about providing "ARMS SALES"".
It is not about democracy or communism or what else,it is about ruling people,it is the overwhelming desire of making money and having power(you know "I've got the power").
And if I remember good,communism has been elected democratic by the people(many years ago),But that didn't fit with big companies in the USA,so CIA moved to change that and it was a great massacre after that they had put Mr Pinochet(dictator) to rule their...
http://www.geographia.com/chile/chilehistory.htm
Another example,if you have raid the book"By way of deception" it is written by an ex-mosad,you will see that in Srilanka mosad was selling "Arms" to the rebellions(Tameel) and the government at the same time.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-3168072-7154461
Svarog said
"Religion has always been of little significance in Chinese political matters, and none at all after the communist revolution."
"allow me to say that referring to Taiwan and China as separate entities (espcially historically) is wrong, since Taiwan was an integral part of China until the Revolution when Chang Kai Shek established an independent capitalist regime there with massive help from the US "
I agree with most of your opinion in your analyses,no one like anything threatening his power either it is democracy or religion or something else.
Rq: please no one take offence from my writings,and my English isn't that good,I hope I have put the right word in the right place.
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"all I know is I know nothing" Socrates.
"This nation will not thrive unless philosophers rule or the governors philosophize." Plato
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 24, 2005 03:28 PM |
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Hello Roland!
Hi Roland! Welcome to China discussion! It is good to see you!
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 27, 2005 11:48 PM |
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Some news from the "conflict"...
Yesterday, China charged 16 Chinese protesters for having destroyed property, after the anti-Japanese demonstrations in Shanghai. By doing this, the Chinese government shows that it is making a serious attempt at stopping these demonstrations, which has been flaring up all over China in the last month after it being revealed that the Japanese have been glossing over their WWII war crimes in their new history books.
During the Asian-African summit in Jakarta this weekend, the Japanese Prime Minister, Junichiro Koizumi, apologized for these war crimes. Still, the Chinese president, Hu Jintao, demands that concrete measures be taken by the Japanese, before the relationship between the two countries can be improved.
Hu Jintoa is doubtlessly thinking about Koizumi’s visit to the war memorial monument Yasukuni, where 14 war criminals are honoured, amongst them former Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, who were executed after WWII.
The Chinese government in Beijing have all the time used Koizumi’s visit to this monument as an indicator to the relationship between China and Japan. They will now most likely use the behaviour of the Japanese government in their attempt of blocking Japan’s entry as a permanent member of the UN. Security Council. By doing this, they are treading on the toes of Japanese ambitions with all their weight.
The latest anti-Japanese demonstration that has been reported took place in the Chinese city of Zhuhai, last Sunday. The petition against Japan’s permanent seat on the Security Council continues on the Internet, but signals from Beijing suggests that the government desires peace and order again, after having used the situation to mark themselves both against the Japanese way of writing history, and against the new security agreement between the US. and Japan, in which Taiwan is for the first time mentioned as a potential conflict area between the three countries.
On the Jakarta summit, president Hu amongst other things brought up the Taiwanese question – which “touches the core of China’s interests” – as a comment on the military agreement that was signed in February. Beijing wants to concentrate on other questions of conflict with the Japanese government. And the number of such questions hasn’t exactly decreased.
Last year, China took over Japan’s old position as the most important trade partner of the US. At the same time, China has become the largest trade partner for the EU. Recently, Japan accused China of violating the rules of the World Trade Organization (WTO). Because of this, Beijing considers Japan as an accomplice of the US. (An accomplice of what, I do not know...)
In addition to this, China has caught up with Japan as the third largest exporter in the world, according to the WTO. Electronics now make up one third of Chinese exports – the export of electronics rose with 32% last year. China’s growth rose with an unexpected 9.5% in the first quarter of 2005, as a result of the growing exports and the increased consumption.
Also, China has taken the place of the US as Japan’s trading partner number one. The trade between the two countries amounted to a value of approximately $145 billion pr. year, and in 2004 Japanese corporations invested somewhere in the area of $730 million in China.
China is still interested in Japanese investments, and a shambling Japanese economy has experienced how heavily the Chinese weighs in their (i.e. the Japanese’s) business accounts, not to mention the sharpness of Chinese competition. The Japanese foreign trade organisation (JETRO) has been hectically lobbying towards the Japanese government, practically begging that the strong emotional reactions don’t have a negative impact on Japanese corporations’ operations in China – whether they are manufacturing or selling their wares there.
The CEO of JETRO, Tomoharu Washio, has accused Japanese media of sensationalist coverage of the demonstration, and of creating difficulties for Japanese interests in China. The accusations came in connection with an anti-Japanese strike at the electronic component factory of Taiyo Yuden in the Guangdong province.
Washio fears that Chinese consumers will boycott Japanese goods, and the unrest in China sent the Nikkei index down below 11.000 points last week, for the first time in four months. The losers of the stock markets are not surprisingly the shipyards, steel mills and other heavy industry that has been experiencing growth thanks to the great demand in China. This constitutes the greatest threat to Japan, unless Chinese authorities bring it under control again.
Also, Japan and China are mixed up in a race to secure future energy resources from From the Gulf, the Middle East, the Caspian area, from Russia, and last but not least from own offshore instalments.
In the middle of the demonstrations, Japan turned up the heat some more, when the department of trade announced that it would allow Japanese corporations to initiate search drillings for oil and gas in a disputed area in the East China Sea (see map below). The permissions apply to investigations in the Xihu Trench, east of Shanghai. This trench stretches across a maritime economic zone that both China and Japan are claiming as their own.
The dots inside the crudely drawn dark red circle represent the Senkaku Islands, which both China and Japan claims ownership of. Because of the uncertainty surrounding the sovereignty of these islands, the two countries have different opinions of were the boundary between the maritime economic zones should go. The black line represents the boundary according to the Japanese, while the kinda greenish line is supposed to follow approximately the track of the Chinese claims.
DISCLAIMER: The accuracy of these lines cannot be guaranteed, as it is I who have plotted them in while looking at an unsophisticated printed graphic illustration in a newspaper...
Prime Minister Koizumi assures that Japan “will go ahead with the project as planned”, despite warnings from the Chinese Cabinet Minister Tang Jiaxuan that this will “lead to further complications and intensify the East China Sea question. All this happened before the Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura visited Beijing to discuss the demonstrations with his Chinese “counterpart”, Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing.
China has already initiated search drillings on their side of the Xihu Trench, but Tokyo claims that any reserve the Chinese might find could come from the Japanese side, and because of this wants the entire Chinese search project shut down. In September, the companies Royal Dutch Shell Unocal withdrew from the project because they estimate the reserves to be smaller than expected, and not commercially worth mining.
This is the second energy conflict in this area between these two countries. Further North, the conflict concerns a field of gas reserves, where the Japanese and Chinese governments haven’t agreed on the boundary line.
A disagreement relating to oil pipes from Russia now seems to have ended in a tie. Moscow at first went for the alternative of ending the pipe in Vladivostok, but now, because of the high oil prices and the energy hunger in China, has decided to end a side-pipeline in the heavy industrial areas of Heilongjiang and Liaoning in north east China.
All in all, I think that this thing looks to have the potential of becoming a total mess. Also, it seems that none of the nations involved are behaving too responsibly...
To finish this off, here’s some statistics about the two countries, presented in a nice and comparative manner. 
China
Population: 1.3 billion
Trade, pr. capita: Ca. $530
Largest importers (aka. trade partners): USA 21%, Hong Kong 17%, EU15 17%, Japan 14%, others 31%.
Japan
Population: 127 million
Trade, pr. capita: Ca. $6660
Largest importers (aka. trade partners): USA 25%, EU15 15%, China 12%, South Korea 7%, others 41%.
NOTE: These numbers cannot possibly be from the same year as the one’s I’ve found for the main text, as they seem to differ somewhat. But they’re still accurate, I guess...
Some events from Chinese-Japanese history:
1894: The first war between Japan and China begins.
1931: Japan invades the Chinese province of Manchuria, which remains a Japanese marionette state until 1945.
1937-38: The Nanjing Massacre. Up to 300.000 Chinese citizens killed by the Japanese army.
1937-45: The second war between Japan and China. Part of WWII.
1972: Diplomatic relations are re-established.
1998: The last visit from a Chinese leader to Japan.
2001: The last visit from a Japanese Prime Minister to China.
Small update on the issue of that war memorial:
Yesterday, it became clear that the Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi will visit the disputed war memorial Yasukuni this year as well, despite the fact that this is seen as a provocation, both from the Chinese and the Koreans.
The Yasukuni shrine contains the names of about 2.5 million fallen Japanese soldiers, including 14 WWII war criminals. These annual visits have therefore been a thorn in the eyes of the populations in the Asian countries that succumbed to the Japanese war machine. The reactions have been most severe in China and Korea, where the war crimes were the most thorough and crass.
Last weekend, the Japanese Prime Minister made an official apology for these war crimes, during his meeting with the Chinese president Hu Jintao during the Asian-African summit in Jakarta, Indonesia. Hu's answer was that the apology would be measured against the concrete actions of the Japanese government.
"Koizumi will visit Yasukuni this year as well, definitely." This was the "assuring" words of Shinzo Abe, a distinguished member of the liberal democratic government part Jiyu Minshu-to, according to the Financial Times.
"China accuses us because they do not understand our freedom of religiion," was another thing he said.
The Yasukuni shrine is inside a temple, and contains name rolls of the fallen who should be remembered. Amongst the names, we can find the former Prime and War Minister Hideko Tojo, who was hanged after WWII. Tojo is known as one of the most infamous war criminals, who the new Japanese history books are trying to gloss over.
The shrine used to be a destination of pilgrimages for Japanese fascists and right-wing extremists, and few government leaders have set their foot there before Koizumi made it an annual event. The former Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone desires that the four most controvertial names be removed from the shrine, something Tojo's grandchild, Yuko Tojo, has resisted.
Shinzo Abe leads the group of neo-consrevatives around Koizumi. He bacame general secretary for the government's party, to drive through a far more offensive Japanese policy, which includes a re-write of the pacifist Japanese constitution, as well as the sementation of the military treaty with the US and a harder line towards North Korea. Abe is seen as a possible successor of Koizumi, and also stands for a harder line towards China.
"Yasukuni is in Japan, and it's ridiculous to suggest that the Prime Minister cannot visit a particular place in his own country," he has told the Finanical Times. Abe has spearheaded the campaign to cut down on the "soft" loans that China has recieved from Japan as a kind of war indemnity. It was decided in March that these loans will be stopped once China has arranged the 2008 Olympics, just like Japan stopped similar loans to South Korea after the 1988 Olympics in Seoul. Beijing has chosen to see this as a recognition of their financial status.
Abe feels that the time when Japan bent under the criticism from China is over: "From now on, we must promote our national interests."
Aslo according to Abe, the condtions will be unstable so long as the Chinese Communist Party is in power: "The CCP is on the brink of losing its legitimacy. The distance between rich and poor is growing, and there's an enormous discontent atmosphere in the Chinese populaton." This is according to Abe the reason why Beijing wants to present Japan as the "bad boy".
He is warning against the climate for investments, if the Chinese government doesn't rein in the anti-Japanese demonstrations and stops pushing a provocing policy, such as the new Taiwan Bill is an indication of.
China reacted strongly when in February the new bilateral military treaty of the US and Japan mentioned Taiwan as a potential security problem between the three countries.
Oh, and I had messed up the BB code of the map. It's fixed now, so the map should ve viewable. 
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 29, 2005 10:49 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 29 Apr 2005
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Status Quo...
This is the usual sort of nonsense between China and Japan. It is nothing new. It was only this past weekend when I told a friend not to worry. He is 22 and wonders if he might be drafted. Just as all American males his age, he never believed President Bush when he promised no draft during his election speech against Kerry. He asked me if he should be worried because he knows I stay current on what's happening in the world. I told him not worry about anything having to do with China, Japan, or even North Korea. I suggested he ignore this common banter. I told him the only thing he need concern himself with was Taiwan. I said if he sees something in the paper mentioning a Chinese invasion then expect to be drafted. I continued by saying that President Bush would lose too much face if he let Chinese invade and occupy Taiwan. All of his words and actions mean nothing if he lets a communist China invade a free and democratic Taiwan. The American people would never let him live this down; for all his rhetoric and flamboyance about spreading democracy to the four corners of the Earth. He would be utterly humiliated.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 29, 2005 10:55 PM |
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Quote:
I continued by saying that President Bush would lose too much face if he let Chinese invade and occupy Taiwan. All of his words and actions mean nothing if he lets a communist China invade a free and democratic Taiwan. The American people would never let him live this down; for all his rhetoric and flamboyance about spreading democracy to the four corners of the Earth. He would be utterly humiliated.
And President Bush would prove that all his critics were right all along if he chose to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives over a small Asian island...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 30, 2005 06:31 AM |
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I Disagree terje_the_mad_wizard
This is not simply a small Asian island. It is a key American-supported democratic foothold in securing U.S. Pacific theater interests. We have a significant establishment of corporations through which we trade with in Taiwan. The most valuable Pacific ally is of course Japan with South Korea trailing shortly behind. As everyone knows well, the U.S. considers the Pacific theater as important as the North sea is to Britain. Don't forget our fruitless endeavor in Veitnam. Our options are greatly limited in this region of the world due to our losing that war/conflict. Without Japan(and rapidly advancing Chinese trade) we would have no solid ground to stand on in this part of the world. All geo-political Japanese interests are considered very important to our own interests.
...humbly put...in my opinion...
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 30, 2005 10:01 PM |
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Quote:
Don't forget our fruitless endeavor in Veitnam.
That's what I don't do.
I only expressed my fear that a relatively insignificant conflict between China and another part of China, as Svarog would have called it  , will escalate into something more World Wa-like than anything I can think of since WWII.
Sure, Taiwan is geostrategically important. Sure, it's important to stand up for one's principles, also on the behalf/in the defence of others. But what I miss is a sense of proportions.
Democracy and security of one's home nation (if you're into that last part - which I personally am not) are indeed important concepts. But they are hardly more valuable concepts than the lives of countless thousands, than the destruction of an entire region, than the annihilation of "world peace" (to the extent that such an entity has ever existed - which it probably hasn't).
These are what I percieve as the consequences of a conflict between China and Taiwan - if that conflict came to involve the US and Japan. Is it really worth it?
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 01, 2005 01:47 AM |
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Speaking Of Which:
30 years to date for the fall of Saigon. It fell two years after the U.S. completely bugged out. Some sort of anniversary is being held in the streets of Saigon today.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 02, 2005 07:18 AM |
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No wonder, since it's 30 years since they rid themselves of a horrid, semi-fascist dictator...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2005 09:59 PM |
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Quote:
I read alot about this when I went to Hiroshima, studying Japanese war history.
Actually, the death toll for radiation was much more than that.
In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the numbers had escalated up to around 350,000 lives by 1950.
That's much more than the blast. The blast only instantly killed around 110,000 Japanese instantly, small compared to the radiation damage.
Around the same numbers were killed in the Tokyo Fire Bombings, mostly civilians.
Approx. 1.2million Japanese were killed during WW2, and anyone can see that the 20million Chinese killed dwarfs those numbers, as Japan was only attacked on it's mainland right at the very end of WW2. The Soviet Union lost the most (25mil) but that's getting too off topic..
You can't compare the two. I agree that if Japan keeps acting the way they have been recently, this conflict is going to get really ugly really fast.
It's funny how we can never get the numbers right. This is taken from CBC, the Candian Broadcasting Coorporation:
Quote:
Aug. 15, 1945:
Japan surrenders after atomic bombs dropped by the U.S. kill 140,000 in Hiroshima and 70,000 in Nagasaki.
May 8, 1945:
Fighting ends in Europe.
Dec. 7, 1941:
Japan attacks U.S. forces stationed at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, causing nearly 3,000 deaths. The attack brings the U.S. into the war.
Sept. 1, 1939:
Germany invades Poland. Two days later, Britain and France declare war on Germany, and the Second World War begins.
July 7, 1937:
Japan invades China, after invading Manchuria in 1931. Japanese forces take Beijing and Shanghai and, later, the capital of Nanjing (Nanking). Between December 1937 and March 1938, up to 300,000 civilians, mostly women and children, are killed in a savage spree of rape and murder. The so-called “Rape of Nanjing” is seen as a symbol of Japanese aggression and was one of the worst massacres of modern times. During the war, Japan also practised biological and chemical warfare on Chinese civilians. At the height of the war Japan occupied parts of Korea, Burma, Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand.
Anyways, it seems to me like the numbers add up in such a way that Japan has done more damage to China then anything else. And in return, they lost civilians in WW II by the US nuclear weapons, not by China.
China is clearly the victim here, as it did not even retaliate against Japan, yet Japan routinely pays tribute to it's war criminals for what they did in china. And then the textbooks... Seems like they are in a hurry to forget what they did in the 30's.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 25, 2005 10:06 PM |
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Actually, I read an article when this "conflict" was at its strongest a few weeks ago. The article was written by some woman, I can't remember who or what she was, but she'd been working in a bar in Hong Kong in the mid-90s, when a gang of young Japanese men had entered the bar, and started singing karaoke. Do you know what they were singing? First, the regimental song of the Kamikaze pilots, and then the regimental song of a platoon that participated in the "Rape of Nanjing".
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2005 10:09 PM |
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I was hoping you where going to post...
What the **** is wrong with these Japanese kids? What did China do for Japan to hate 'em so much?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 25, 2005 10:32 PM |
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Well, if I've understood things correctly, the Japanese used to think of themselves as a kind of Übermenschen, in comparision to other peoples they were in touch with.
How relevant that is today, though, I don't know. Although I suspect that that's the kind of mentality that appeals to certain kinds of young men...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 25, 2005 11:15 PM |
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And In English . . . .
They simply think they are of a higher race of human beings than the Chinese. Japanese racism is still common. It may be illegal to practice openly but many Japanese still consider themselves a more advanced race because their country has long been seen as "more stable" throughout history. The Japanese believe more intensively in law and order of the common man. The Japanese Emperor is less a king and more a religious inspiration. Perhaps there focus on lawful social behavior led them to their racism; and in turn led them to think the world would be better off with Japanese dominance. It is true that their soldiers fought and died exactly as they had been told to do by their superior officers. Their overall percentage of soldier dessertion was much lower than any other military in the world at that time. This is very significant considering their technological edge was far behind. It almost seemed as though they were willing to die because of their strong belief in their own Japanese culture and heritage. This is a strange hypocrasy because they didn't have to start a war or invade China and they could have continued to remain sovereign and independent. As I recall, once their fleet was destroyed, the common Japanese soldier was said to have been motivated by defending their home island. (i.e. "we must protect our home from the invaders"...etc) But there never would have been an invasion of Japan if they hadn't started a war.
Historic Chinese dynastic rule and philosophy are a bit different from Japan. The Chinese believe more in an omnipresent ongoing equivalent opposing of universal truths. Because of this, it was the Chinese who first invented the science of Astrology. Order is balanced by Chaos and so forth. A dynasty would rise and enforce a period of order but then soon fall to a period of chaos with no emperor...etc. Another interesting common characteristic that I have been told by many many Chinese is that they are a very superstitious people. In the history of the world China has long been a country of inner dwelling who continually focus on social rituals and artistic expression. To my knowledge there has never been a "Chinese empire".
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 25, 2005 11:28 PM |
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Maybe not a Chinese Empire in the Roman or British sense, but they did have pretty large spheres of influence at times. Indo-China, Manchuria, Mongolia; all of these areas have been or are under Chinese rule (and the other way around, for that matter). But to the south they're blocked by dense jungle. From south east and east by the world's largest chain of mountains. From north east by one of the world's largest deserts. From north partially by this desert and the Wall. And, finally, from west by the sea.
So they have expanded to the maximum of their natural borders, really.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted May 26, 2005 03:48 AM |
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I Think I Mispoke
I said they invented Astrology. But it might have been astronomy instead.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 27, 2005 03:33 PM |
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I was just offered a paper of The Epoch Times newspaper on the street while going to get my morning coffee.
It read: "Is the Red Wall Falling?" I don't usually pick up what is being offered in the streets, but this had a photo of a red flag being burnt by Chinese with the letters CCP - Chinese Communist Party. Fascinated, I grabbed the paper
Here is the story:
Toronto demo held for the 1.7 million who have quit China's Communist party
May 21, 2005 - 17:30
TORONTO (CP) - Hundreds of people from across Canada gathered Saturday to support an estimated 1.7 million Chinese who've quit the Communist Party of China in the last six months.
Organizers said the increased renunciations mark a critical turning point away from fear and toward democracy in China.
Almost all of those who have given up on Chinese communism are expatriots.
"It's a big moment, and it starts now," said Kevin Yang, who organized the demonstration.
"As the banners say, the red wall is falling. It won't be too long."
People filled the lawn behind Queen's Park, Ontario's legislature, to speak out against China's Communist government and to award symbolic certificates to those who have quit the CCP.
The Epoch says the wave of renunciation was sparked after its series of editorials, called Nine Commentaries, last November. The paper is published around the world, including Canada.
The editorials decried what the paper said was the CCP's advocacy of violence and deception and described the party as an oppressive and corrupt regime that had killed more than 80 million people in China.
Since then, Yang said, over 23,000 people a day have sent faxes, e-mails or letters to the newspaper and other organizations announcing their withdrawal from the party.
A number of speakers, including the editor of the Epoch Times and the president of the Chinese community centre of the Greater Toronto Area, took the stage to commend the bravery of those who had renounced the party.
"It is not easy to publicly make the announcement," said Pierce Lee, president of the federation of Asian Canadians, through a translator.
"People who live overseas are still afraid of the CCP. Walk out of that fear because this is Canadian soil we're standing on."
But translator and co-host Alice Huynh said many still fear the repercussions of quitting the party.
"In China, they'd get killed immediately just for holding the Nine Commentaries, let alone announcing it like this," she said.
The speeches and traditional performances were greeted with applause and cheers like "CCP is doomed," enlivening an otherwise staid gathering.
"I will never stop the struggle, " said Johnny Su, 55, a former Chinese soldier who was imprisoned and beaten after quitting the CCP in the 1960s.
"They destroyed the country, destroyed the people, destroyed the education, destroyed the tradition ... everything, everything," he said.
Some Torontonians joined the rally, which culminated with a march through the city's Chinatown, to show solidarity for the cause.
"I grew up during deep Communism when no one thought it would end," said Maria Salzman, a Polish-Canadian.
"When I saw the declarations I couldn't stop tears from coming."
This is indeed a step towards the right () direction. getting jailed or killed for having the copies? Can't fathom the thought.
I also read elsewhere that the CCP makes people beleive that the CCP is China, and that anyone who opposes the CCP opposes China. That's pretty scarry stuff because in fact, it's just the opposite. And if people beleive in that, no wonder they kill and jail innocent protesters.
It's nice to see the progress nonetheless.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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