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| Thread: Other side QP's |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 09, 2005 09:46 PM |
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But of course you can help, you're helping every time you post in this thread 
The best way for Asmodean and I to find the right balance, is to hear as many different viewpoints, and get as much input from the community as possible. We're just moderators, not superheroes  Naturally there will be things that we might miss, or not have considered - so hearing different opinions on the matter is very helpful.
Thanks again to everyone who has been writing here, and thanks in advance to those of you who haven't written yet!
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 09, 2005 10:35 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 9 Mar 2005
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Getting Serious....Think About This
I have some input. I hope everyone understands that my posts don't speak for anyone but myself. If someone disagrees then let them do it respectfully. I will gladly listen to opposing views. Let's talk more about the perceived "quality" of a post. I think there should be four areas of significance and importance involved in formulating a perceived "quality" point. I think a quality point should be broken down into what we think is significant about any given post.
1. Inspiration(50%)
2. Effort(25%)
3. Exploring the unknown(20%)
4. Civil restraint(5%)
Total = 100% of Quality point awarded based on above requirements
Inspiration should be the largest portion and influencing factor in determing Qp worthy material. Sometimes when people post it can be so inspiring that you can't put your finger on what it was exactly that was so great about it. You simply feel you really like the post. Sometimes they post something you may have never thought of and did it in such a way as to truly inspire you. This should also be a good reflection of how many other people were inspired by it. Inspiration should also be the area that includes how humorous a post is to a group of members. Let's say a moderator thinks a post is funny but no members agree. Should the post get a Qp? I think a post that is rewarded for humor should be awarded by having at least 5 members say it was funny to them. I also think we should consider Moderators as worth two members. They work for the board and find the restraint to be a member without abusing moderator powers. So if 3 members and one mod think the post was funny then the post should get a Qp.
Effort should be based on how much time and research the observers think was put into the post. If a person is posting about their own area of expertise(i.e. Svarog on socialism or bort on biochemistry) then they should get a lower score for effort. But say Peacemaker or Pandora generates a post far beyond their comfort zone possibly researching biochemistry or looking heavily into socialism then they should get a higher effort score. Overcoming linguistic obstacles should be a part of this area. If it is true that the poster is not posting in his/her native tongue then I think extra effort should be awarded to the individual. Let us not judge a persons post by grammar unless it is not their native language.
Exploring the Unknown should be when a member(s) approaches a subject they know nothing about. They know nothing about it yet they find the strength to remain open-minded and willing to listen to both sides of an argument before finally forming a solid opinion. Perhaps something like when a person was raised among racist individuals and yet still wants to listen to both sides of a racist argument. That's really all you can ask of a person; to ask that they hear you out before making a decision is very important. Even if afterwards they decide to remain a racist at least you know your thoughts were heard. This kind of openness should be applauded and not ignored.
Civil Restraint should be looked at as being mocked heavily but still keeping true to a civil delivery and tone in your post. This could be as simple as following Valeriy's rules after being insulted or turning and insulting post into a pleasant one. Say someone insults you and you take it upon yourself to manipulate their post in a non-threatening playful manner thus turning the aforementioned tension-filled stressful atmosphere into one of light-hearted humor. Sometimes the fires of fury can be doused with confusing humor that changes the subject from insults to on-topic. The old change-up But if you find you aren't as masterfully funny as some people(such as bort, Pandora, TheUltimateMale, Leo_Lion, or Peacemaker) then you might want to simply follow Valeriy's rules or risk adding fuel to the flames of rage.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 10, 2005 01:33 AM |
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Consis:
First of all I appreciate the above post by Consis for:
a) attempting to quantify the unquantifiable, and
b) the astounding degree to which you justify the quantification.
Fascinating!
(And to be placed in such company for my paltry attempts at humor as you have -- well, all I can say is it's humbling.)
Now on the point of there being certain posters who overwhelm with quality posts:
I think if I were in Pandora's shoes I would find this a very difficult task. For instance, there are posters whom I would reward with all the top 2% and then some if I took all posts as anonymous. They would "hog" the entire board in terms of red stars. Some of those that come most readily to mind (in alphabetical order):
(EDIT -- names deleted to avoid confusion and the appearance of overlooking many individuals. Suffice it to say there were about twenty of them. If you think your name was on the list, it probably was. Either way, it was a decidedly undiplomatic thing to do listing a few without listing all the top posters. Sorry guys.)
There are several others I know but I'm only talking off the top of my head here. There are also a host of others whose posts I've just been flabbergasted over in the past, but again, these are the most active at this point and serve as an example.
Now you can tell from my series of selections that I have extremely variant reasons for thinking a certain person deserves qp's. In this list we have people from every walk of life, who express a vast spectrum of experience, political views, age, writing skills, and whatnot. But IHMO, based on what I know and understand of each one of them, and taking what I know of their personal circumstances into account, their contribution based on where they're coming from, and how much they're stretching themselves and breaking outside their preconceived paradigms, I think that they all post truly amazing stuff.
I should add that there are many former posters (like The Gootch, Shae Trielle, dArGOn, Old Timer, maybe even Sir Stiven) who would have been included on this list were they still active.
But on the other hand, isn't that the whole point of awarding qp's, that you're awarding the top posts, no matter who posts them under which circumstances? Maybe these people should be hogging the stars because they've earned them. So maybe awarding the same people with numerous stars isn't such a bad thing. I would further suggest that awarding new posters with red stars based on the fact that they're new posters, rather than a standard of posting quality, might create false expectations for further rewards rather than foster good posting habits and efforts.
You have to keep in mind though; I'm not a gamer, and I still don't have a real good crasp on anything other than the Other Side of the Monitor. So perhaps I'm misunderstanding the whole concept behind red stars to begin with.
Considering the burgeoning numbers of quality posts in Other Side, this idea has been kicking around in my head all day:
Suppose you guys approached Val with the idea of creating a new kind of reward for real-life talk that distinguished the reward for the kinds of posts that you get in Other Side, like a "Blue Star" qp which you could reward to the top ten percent of posts in The Other Side, and upped the numbers to correspond percentage-wise with the reds (like, for instance, it takes five red qp's to get a new red star, but it takes 25 blue qp's to get a blue qp)?
That way, when you get overwhelmed with great posts in Other Side, you can do something about it, and when you get a new poster who occasionally posts something really profound, you'll still have some room to count them in too. That ten percent would go a lot farther than that paltry two percent you're stuck with. I mean, it's the nature of the animal that real life discussion is going to generate huge amounts of effort, investment, passion, research, and all the resulting data in the posts, especially with everything that's going on in the world right now. Maybe the reward system should reflect all that.
Just a thought here. So, whataddaya guys think?
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 10, 2005 02:50 AM |
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Excellent posts guys
I don't have the time for a real reply just now - but will do that soon , I simply could not resist adding this one teeny thing....
Shadowcaster is still a mod Weepy 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 10, 2005 07:04 AM |
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ROFL
Sorry
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted March 10, 2005 07:31 AM |
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Thanks for including me on those prestigious lists, Consis & Peacemaker! I'm glad to see that my hard work, attention to detail, and open-mind have been noticed by some great members! And this brings me to my point...I would prefer hearing nice things from other members any day, over being rewarded with a +QP.
It's nice to see a Moderator recognize one of my good Posts, with a QP here and another one there, but when other members point out something that they like about me or mention me in a list of well-know "Uber-members" , I get much more out of that then any amount of QPs!
Based on this, I have taken it upon myself to applaud other members when they Post something that I like or something that is impressive/creative. I also make an effort to nominate some of these Posts/Threads for +QPs, whenever possible. I've gotten the odd "I disagree with your nomination of this Post or that Thread", but in majority, the response has been positive AND the members have appreciated my support!
So, for me...the current system works well, but I would be willing to try something new! Whether it was a member-based reward system, a simple % increase in the awarding of QPs, or a mixture of different ideas...I would say that there is no harm in trying and that there is always room for improvement!
Now, if only we could get Angelito to get the HC Awards going, I would have another way of showing my appreciation for those members that have made my HC experience a pleasant one.
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 10, 2005 05:26 PM |
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I have to say, i am really happy with the way this discussion has been going
We haven't heard much from the side of no QP at all, which I would be interested in hearing as well, but we have had a lot of really helpful input!
A lot of the replies really are quite similar to how I feel about things - which is good, because I feel we're on the right track here then.
As a mod, I feel that it basically comes down to using our best judgement (obviously) but hearing your views really helps in determining what to base our judgement on.
Terje said earlier
Quote:
A better suggestion would be for the Mods to discuss this between them, but since it appears that they share views on what's quality, it would be kinda "obsolete" to suggest such a thing
Such a statement really isn't obsolete - true we share a similar 'philosophy' if you will, but we don't always have the same opinion, so talking with Asmodean is always valuable - its easier to make a decision with his support, and it always helps to hear his views because I really respect him
With regards to Peacemakers idea, I do believe it has merits and could be quite effective. I'm always hesitant to consider something that puts more work on Valeriy, especially now when RL is demaning a lot of his attention. I also think that we should be able to find a happy balance within the system that we have, especially since we're all having this discussion.
Basically with regard to stars it just seems that Asmodean and I need to remember to stop and look at the whole picture, by which i mean to include all of the thoughts that have been mentioned here and not make too many quick calls that are more likely to be influenced by our personal views. Hmmm... so to simplify, we should do our job then?
Leo's point about hearing praise from other members, reminded me of a similar IM talk I had with Consis just recently. What I realized with myself is that often I will read posts and have a very high opinion of what's been written. In fact, there are a lot of members who I do have a lot of respect for through reading their posts, that I'm sure have no idea that I feel that way because I don't post here in those threads.
This made me think, that very likely I'm not alone in this - so perhaps as an alternative to a seperate type of QP system, we could implement a Positive feedback thread where members who are inspired by a particular post/thread or just a member's contributions can say so. Not only would this serve to point Asmodean and I in the right direction if a QP should be awarded but we've missed it - but also if there are no QP given at least the member feels that their efforts are appreciated.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted March 10, 2005 06:21 PM |
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Why not just apply a simple criterion?
Look at the username next to the post.
Is it bort?
Then give it a +QP.
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Drive by posting.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 10, 2005 06:25 PM |
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I do that already - but (sadly) not everyone can be Bort 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted March 10, 2005 10:23 PM |
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Quote:
We haven't heard much from the side of no QP at all, which I would be interested in hearing as well, but we have had a lot of really helpful input!
(well here's Jebus to play devils advocate)
Why not QP the post (or thread) instead of the member?
I'd much prefer to see a star beside someone's post in the thread to see that the mods thought this was funny or well thought out (depending on the issue of course), then have members attempting to constantly gain extra QP's.
However, if your a pro-QP, I think it should be left to the mods to give them out. They have a council, why don't we leave it up to them to sort it out? If a member feels that someone's post is worthy of a QP, discuss it with a mod directly, instead of always starting your post with :"QP!! QP!" .
Some members are strong believers in the reward system and would give out stars like hotcakes. Unfortunetely this takes away the credit that I feel a QP should represent.
In all honesty, sometimes I feel that members post books in a thread just to potentially get a QP. I actually left for a while because I was tired of reading threads that were based on trying to get stars... And I was especially tired of watching, what I felt, was average posts getting QP's.
So far I've had more fun on HC getting to know some of you and have completely lost all motivation to post something for the purpose of getting a star...
(personally instead of Qp's I'd like to see experience stars to show who's a more senior member and who's new. That way I don't think of him/her as "quality post guy" I see him as experienced and wise.)
I may have repeated some ideas that were posted(for that I apologize). If I've repeated your idea it's because I agree with it.
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"You went over my helmet??"
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 10, 2005 11:53 PM |
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If it's any consolation, there have always been members who post for QP , and after reading enough QP hunt posts they tend to stand out and we mods do see them for what they are.
I think that what we're looking for in this thread is what makes a post really stand out above the rest, and getting different memebers' views helps us to see that.
Remember that if you ever feel that a QP shouldn't have been awarded, or if you just don't understand why it was awarded - ask the mods either in IM or in the feedback thread, and we'll always explain our reasoning to you. If we've made an error we'd certainly want to correct it.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted March 11, 2005 12:14 AM |
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Quote:
If we've made an error we'd certainly want to correct it.
You'll never take my "precious"! I love my "precious QPs"...
GOLLUM...GOLLUM! 
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted March 11, 2005 01:20 AM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 10 Mar 2005
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The no-QP side doesn't seem very popular. Ah well, here goes. *casts Protection from Rotten Tomatoes on self*
Trying to keep this relevant to Other Side:
 Other forums get great posts even without a +qp system. Yes, this system makes HC unique, but to suggest that HC posters need it is a little insulting. Are we that undermotivated?
If a post is self-evidently in the top 2%, it's, well, self-evident. It doesn't need a little red star to point out the obvious.
The biggie: If a post is not self-evidently top 2% -- and because quality is subjective, the vast majority of cases are borderline -- the decision "To QP Or Not To QP" causes fights.
Moderators are "Heroes of Order." That means keeping the forum neat and peaceable. Asking mods to be critics/teachers/assessors is pushing their role too far.
The main benefit of +qps is that they are Ego Cookies. They make people feel good. As has been pointed out, however, Ego Cookies are not limited to +qps. Alternative, better Ego Cookies (supportive posts, IMs, in depth answers, etc) are within the members' power. If members are more proactive in distributing Ego Cookies, the +qps are simply redundant.
The above applies to encouraging newbies as well.
+QP hunting can occasionally result in bona fide quality contributions. So can fishing for compliments, and that doesn't target any particular individuals.
When each member gives Ego Cookies as they see fit, there is no need to fight over an unachievable community consensus.
When each member gives Ego Cookies as they see fit, there is no temptation to give the mods' opinions more weight in an area where this may not be entirely appropriate.
When each member gives Ego Cookies as they see fit, the political issue vanishes. If someone likes your post because they agree with it, great. If they dislike it because they disagree, fine. If they like it despite disagreeing, jackpot! And whether or not they're a mod never comes up.
Don't even get me started on having forum privileges dependent on +qps.
In conclusion, I think that the main disadvantage of +qps (fights over subjective quality) overwhelms the main advantage of +qps (Ego Cookies). Therefore, I do not encourage more +qps on Other Side.
Please don't hurt me.
Quote:
so perhaps as an alternative to a seperate type of QP system, we could implement a Positive feedback thread where members who are inspired by a particular post/thread or just a member's contributions can say so.
I like this idea a lot!
Edit: Hm, images are not links, the code is not the same...Whatever I might think of little red stars on top of posts, they make great placeholders. They should be added to the smilie list.
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted March 11, 2005 01:33 AM |
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What HASN'T been mentioned at all so far is that QP's are USEFUL!!
As a member, before I became a Mod, I remember that I was happy when I got a QP - it made me feel worthwhile and accepted.
But it also gave other benefits - the most obvious (and important to me at the time) was getting rid of Floodprotect.
Yes some people say they don't hunt for QP's - but if they're sitting on 7 stars and then, hey they get their 8th and now they don't have to wait 90 seconds before posting again then it only means good things for the board, because anyone reaching 8 stars has proved that they have in some way enriched the board with at least 8 posts or threads that were of excellent quality.
Which is not to say that members with less than 8 are any less valid - but it still represents a milestone for that member here at HC.
Just wanted to throw that observation into the mix.
Keep the comments coming, I'm glad this issue is being discussed this fully.
Edit: Apologise to Khaelo, we were posting at the same time, and I see you DID mention forum priveleges.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted March 11, 2005 01:43 AM |
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I didn't want to say anything about the 7 QP stars, Asmodean, because that is where I find myself. I didn't want to seem like I was asking for any favours, although I am counting the Posts until I score the next "big one". I like editing my Posts to remove mistakes or typos, and nothing irks me more than having to wait 90 seconds to simply change a "teh" to "the"...so I will work hard and do my best until I get my 8th QP star, and will continue to do so even afterward...as I chase the dream of rating Threads!
"A girl can dream, can't she?!"
- Some movie line
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted March 11, 2005 02:04 AM |
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Quite funny Leo - since you were the member I was thinking about when I wrote that post.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted March 11, 2005 02:16 AM |
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Jebus:
Quote:
(personally instead of Qp's I'd like to see experience stars to show who's a more senior member and who's new. That way I don't think of him/her as "quality post guy" I see him as experienced and wise.)
Alas, wisdom do not grow proportionally with age…
Khaelo:
Quote:
The main benefit of +qps is that they are Ego Cookies. They make people feel good.
Asmodean:
Quote:
As a member, before I became a Mod, I remember that I was happy when I got a QP - it made me feel worthwhile and accepted.
Yeah. This is one of the main reasons I like QPs.
An example: Sometime before Christmas, I got my 2nd QP. Just after Christmas, I got an A at this university course I took.
What made me most happy? It was the QP. The QP is, no matter the rather metaphysical substance it has here in Cyberspace , rather material. It is something I feel that actually matters, since it shows other posters that I’m not just a spammer, but that I do make some quality posts as well.
Sure, it’s nice to get nice words from other members, but that’s like one huge endorphin kick, while a QP is first one big endorphin kick, and then several smaller ones, when I go back to re-read the post, or just sit and stare at my three read stars under my avatar.
When I got my first couple of QPs, I finally felt that I passed the n00b stage of my membership at HC; that I finally was part of the community, not just some advanced form of lurker. (Disclaimer: This does not reflect my view on “QP-less” members, it’s only how I felt about myself when I got those first bonuses…)
Khaelo:
Quote:
In conclusion, I think that the main disadvantage of +qps (fights over subjective quality) overwhelms the main advantage of +qps (Ego Cookies). Therefore, I do not encourage more +qps on Other Side.
I have not been here for very long, and I must agree that I do not always read every post in the Feedback thread, but none the less, I gotta say this: I’ve never ever seen someone argue (discussions, yes, arguments, no) about +QPs. Penalties, yes. But never +QPs…
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 11, 2005 02:58 AM |
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so glad that khaelo cut the trend of speeches more fit for the academy awards stage than here. i totally agree with her. I speak for me and me only.
since when qp's show quality? quality is contained in the post, not in the stupid star. in a way i think its degrading, especially when we see them in the form of stars next to our avatars. Like measuring dicks.
I've seen members with few stars that post more quality than members with a lot of stars. its not a merit at all. cant be. and i'm not interested in lobbying among the mods for who i think should get qp's and who shouldnt. those who do, have more influence on mods, (since mods claim they do listen to feedback), but the problem is feedback is always given by the same few people.
in addition, a good poster will post the same no matter if qp's are involved or not.
the only good i can think of is incentive for noobs and reference to some good threads, so its easier for new members to find them and read them.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Jebus
Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
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posted March 11, 2005 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
I speak for me and me only.
since when qp's show quality? quality is contained in the post, not in the stupid star. in a way i think its degrading, especially when we see them in the form of stars next to our avatars. Like measuring dicks.
I agree completely..... that's why I think the post should be "QP'd" not the member... That way when I'm reading through a thread and notice the red star, I'll see that this was either a quality post or realy funny!
In my case, I've had more fun here since I've concentrated on building fun relationships on HC, and personnally don't care if I ever get a QP. Having said that, I almost "have" to try to get some to get rid of Flood protect! Like Lion said, it's frustrating to have to wait to edit something or add to your post!!
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"You went over my helmet??"
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 11, 2005 03:54 PM |
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I'm not exactly sure I follow you - it is the posts that get the QP, but in doing so they are associated with the member as well. Its not as though we can go into a member's profile and give then a QP that way.
The plus side to seeing the QP's by member really, is that if you see a member has a lot of stars, you can look at their profile and see where they were awarded. Its helpful for newer members looking to see what types of posts define 'quality' around here, and as well it can make for some good reading
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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