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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: A disturbing trend...
Thread: A disturbing trend... This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Jebus
Jebus


Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
posted April 08, 2005 08:01 PM

Quote:

I can see where your arguments are coming from and I agree with you on many of them. I just don't see our opinions changing the way that some people play the game. As it was said earlier, if someone likes playing with special Rules, then go ahead and play against other people who like Rules.

But, if someone likes playing with no special Rules, then they are free to only play people who also don't like Rules.

To each his own...as long as I'm right and everyone else is wrong!


I agree.  I have no problem with those who prefer to play with rules...  My beef is with those who then preach that the game the way it is is unfair and that their way is better and more balanced.


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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 08, 2005 08:58 PM

Quote:
You've built a game revolving around might.  And then argue that magic is useless after you've eliminated any use for magic.  

You guys should just build a game called
"Might, the end fight"



Jebus...i think you mix up twodifferent things here.

1. I totally agree with you about the "elemination" of magic power by banning spells like Implosion, Armageddon, chainlighting, meteorshower or magic special heroes like Solmyr, Aislinn or Jeddite. I think it is total crap to ban any of those things, coz they are part of the game and can be "answered" with different possibilities. These things have nothing to do with the arrangement of the map. If there are tough guards, Craghack will slash them, Aislinn will shower them to death....both is fine, 2 different tactics, same result!
Thatīs why i donīt have any of these rules in my games normaly.

2. I know u will never balance a random game completely. One player finds great heroes in tavern day 1, the other finds crap (Go Ufretin Go..). One has 3 utopias in his area, the other 3 leprechauns.....
But still both players have to handle their given area and try to clear it. With the 3 most unbalanced things in this game (Fly, DD, Diplo), u donīt have to clear your map, u just collect all good stuff like u do with ressources. And that is the game breaking thing. Like Lkru33 already mentioned, angelwings have nothing to do with might or magic. Everyone can use them and collect what he wants to have.

3. Perhaps i explained the thing with the football wrong, or u didnīt get what i ment. When u buy a football (for soccer) and play with your friends in the backyard, u can play even without rules...as u all wish...doesnīt matter. But at that moment u join a club and play for tourneys (leagues), u have to play the given rules. Normaly, there are not many rules, too many are added from the players which are not necessary.

Everyone can decide to accept the rules or not. Most important thing should be the fun factor, nothing else. If u have more fun without any rules, feel free to play this style, as long as u have fun (and i know u do..)
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Jebus
Jebus


Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
posted April 08, 2005 09:13 PM

And people speak of banning diplomacy!!!  
Angel it's your best trait!
Finally we're getting somewhere!!

Quote:
1. I totally agree with you about the "elemination" of magic power by banning spells like Implosion, Armageddon, chainlighting, meteorshower or magic special heroes like Solmyr, Aislinn or Jeddite. I think it is total crap to ban any of those things, coz they are part of the game and can be "answered" with different possibilities. These things have nothing to do with the arrangement of the map. If there are tough guards, Craghack will slash them, Aislinn will shower them to death....both is fine, 2 different tactics, same result!
Thatīs why i donīt have any of these rules in my games normaly.

2. I know u will never balance a random game completely. One player finds great heroes in tavern day 1, the other finds crap (Go Ufretin Go..). One has 3 utopias in his area, the other 3 leprechauns.....
But still both players have to handle their given area and try to clear it. With the 3 most unbalanced things in this game (Fly, DD, Diplo), u donīt have to clear your map, u just collect all good stuff like u do with ressources. And that is the game breaking thing. Like Lkru33 already mentioned, angelwings have nothing to do with might or magic. Everyone can use them and collect what he wants to have.

I'd agree with finding the wings right from the start.  And most of the time you won't get those spells (fly and DD) right away... although I've noticed in the random templates you get allot of scrolls.
Quote:

3. Perhaps i explained the thing with the football wrong, or u didnīt get what i ment. When u buy a football (for soccer) and play with your friends in the backyard, u can play even without rules...as u all wish...doesnīt matter. But at that moment u join a club and play for tourneys (leagues), u have to play the given rules. Normaly, there are not many rules, too many are added from the players which are not necessary.
 I agree if you're joinning a format of play (tourney or other) that you need to follow those rules.  But in ToH, do they specify that those rules are applied or is it the players made that descrimination?  (so far we're on the same page)
Quote:

Everyone can decide to accept the rules or not. Most important thing should be the fun factor, nothing else. If u have more fun without any rules, feel free to play this style, as long as u have fun (and i know u do..)

AMEN!! who'd a thunk it!!
my point since the start has been the trash talk against "useless" magic heroes against the all powerfull "might" heroes.  Personally I have to compare it to most RPG's.  at the start, might is better but with time and experience, magic tends to get stronger in the end.  

But I do agree whole heartedly that in the end, fun is what matters...  and I'll take tower, with solomyr and expert air magic!!  (old school style)

(everytime I'm arguing, you have to come in and be all "making sense" and screw everyting up!!)


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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted April 08, 2005 10:36 PM

Angelito said:
Quote:
When u buy a football (for soccer) and play with your friends in the backyard, u can play even without rules...as u all wish...doesnīt matter. But at that moment u join a club and play for tourneys (leagues), u have to play the given rules. Normaly, there are not many rules, too many are added from the players which are not necessary.


Lich King on ToH says:
Quote:
Players who feel the need to include certain rules (eg. no Dip, Fly, D Door, Hit/Run, etc.) in their games are entirely free to do so, but please be forewarned that the Honor Council will not make any rulings in disputes which involve the breaking of such rules. We will not reverse losses, restore rankings points, or adjust player records for games that were lost because such rules were broken.
To put it simply, players are free to use whatever rules they wish in their games but shouldn't expect intervention from the Honor Council in the event those rules are broken.


So hence, in the ToH tourney, their are NO rules.

I think Jebus and I have a problem with people who put down rules that favor might, then use that as an argument to say might is better. The point here is that many people post in the library that a might is better in a fight. and they probably are! But that won't make the game by itself. You cannot measure magic influence and in-game decision-making like you would a might hero's stats. The reason why the game is boring for me now is because everyone that i meet calculates every step they take and that is not strategy in my mind. Strategy has alot more to do on the map than in fights. Math is one thing, strategy is another... I firmly beleave that the magic aspect of a game gives the game more strategy than statistics calculation.

I would agree about removing the angelwings... but keeping the spells. But if someone would want to keep angelwings, I'd agree with that too.
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lord_crusader
lord_crusader


Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
posted April 08, 2005 10:41 PM

Conan!! you say what exactly I feel about this!!


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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 09, 2005 12:26 AM
Edited By: rychenroller on 8 Apr 2005

Quote:
Personally I have to compare it to most RPG's.  at the start, might is better but with time and experience, magic tends to get stronger in the end.


Its actually the other way around....magic starts out stronger with early 6 or 7 spellpower arrows or bolts, maybe an early expert magic. Its when might catches up with its magic skills that it levels out and might finally surpasses a magic hero.

The actual *no third fourth spell hero* rule came from maps like battle for power/desert war, any early week2 fight map because magic can rock early. A hero like soly is actually a good choice on fast maps. I even like to play a magic hero on balance, more often than not its an early week 3 meet. Against Jinx we fought early week 3 and I had Sephinroth with expert intelligence/earth and 12 spellpower. Armies arent that big so she won easily. Its not until later that might will catch up in the magic stakes generally.
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patriot_pulsar
patriot_pulsar


Adventuring Hero
posted April 11, 2005 12:50 PM

hey i was reading this thread few days ago and i found that it is not only one problem:S  I was looking for game and i was very dissapointed when i foun one:S Player was playing Balance M with rampart when i asked him maybe he wanna play random all or even castle war he just left:S  it is more and more players like that now   they just looking for easy win to bring more points for their tribe i am really annoed with that.
few weeks ago i played with player for tribes who played rampart on balance he was new he played just 5 games i think and i forget to look for his tribe and we started to play. After about 10 min i decided to look at tribe page and what i found strange he dont even have rampart in his town choise. I just left that game. I decided that i wont email azure about that game because he was new and i said him that he better play his town choise in tribe. but now i think i made a mistake his Stats on WW is amaising for a noob player i been here for already near year but for all the time i don thave so many wins as he daes just for this month and he told me that he will play only rampart because other towns dont have a chance it is really stupid:S castle is crap on balanced template it is the same as inferno ok i just sayd what i was thinking at the moment and i think we really have to do something about it

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lkru33
lkru33


Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
posted April 11, 2005 01:40 PM

Hey Val!! Good to see you here  I must admit, I do like balance because not everything is handed to you... plus there are no game breaking relics  I do have the rampart as a town choice for my tribe, but I always play dungeon.  Is rampart really that strong??  If so, I have been playing the wrong castle  
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patriot_pulsar
patriot_pulsar


Adventuring Hero
posted April 11, 2005 01:51 PM

hey i love balance myself but i dont like when people play it just for easy win and rampart is really strong in my oppinion week 2 ivor will have 30+grand elf and nothinbg can stop them he can clear all map in a moment and then he will come much stronger then u and with stronger army do u think u can stop him?? if u will try very hard maybe but i dont think it will be that easy rampart have big advantage on balanced M

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zsa
zsa


Famous Hero
posted April 12, 2005 05:56 AM

haha that's just sad. That's what I'd call cookie cutting

And yah, magic is better earlier on than might. You get that lightning bolt up fast to 200+ damage, and when you have little troops it really starts to hurt.

When you got higher armies, and higher lvl heroes, you find yourself casting mass haste/slow/curse/bless/cure a lot of the times anyway. Unless you get really powerful spells to augment your magic hero, he will lose strength while the magic hero will gain.


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tigris
tigris


Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
posted April 12, 2005 04:04 PM

Hi there Val!

Nice seeing u on this board once i a while!About your Rampart problem...the ultimate problem solver it's called Terek.U'll already have exp. tactics so your opponent won't be able to protect his elves during the tactic phase cos when both players have exp tactics there actually won't be a tactic phase.Also you should be able to aquire exp air soon enough.I don't think the elves would get to shoot more than once.Just check what's the elves spot in the formation before attacking and place the raiders in the slot just in front of them.

Just my two cents
Hope i see you on the zone soon enough..
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Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted April 12, 2005 04:12 PM
Edited By: Conan on 12 Apr 2005

Hi Val!
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG

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Jebus
Jebus


Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
posted April 12, 2005 05:13 PM

Quote:

Its actually the other way around....magic starts out stronger with early 6 or 7 spellpower arrows or bolts, maybe an early expert magic. Its when might catches up with its magic skills that it levels out and might finally surpasses a magic hero.



Sorry I meant in games like DnD or even other games like Diablo.  Your magic user is not nearly as usefull in the early stage as a fighter would be.

(unless I'm off my rocker again)
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patriot_pulsar
patriot_pulsar


Adventuring Hero
posted April 12, 2005 09:55 PM

Hello Conan Lkru Tigris and everyone else.
The problem is not in fighting against rampart.
Can u imagic how big army can kill Ivor week 2?? How many experience points he will get. When he will attack he will be twice more powerfull then u. Even castle with week 2 army cant kill more then rampart on balanced.
P.S. Castle is sucks on balanced

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LordLazy
LordLazy


Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
posted April 12, 2005 11:37 PM

I am sorry I cant agree on that imagine what your 3 angels can do week3 ) also, playing with 30-40 marksmen week1 is neat

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patriot_pulsar
patriot_pulsar


Adventuring Hero
posted April 13, 2005 10:34 AM

Lazy u right but there is no guaraty that u will get angels week week 2 and with castle it is not always possible on balance sometimes it is so poor that u getting angels week 3 and even 4. And i am talking about medium balanced. And even if u get angels end of week 2 u need time to become higher lvl but u not thinking that on balance M rampart normally killes beggining of week 2 can u make ur hero strong enough to stop hero lvl 13-15 when ur hero will be just lvl 7-9 i think it is big difference dont think about only army think about how fast rampart hero(ivor in that situation) will get experience.
P.s Playing game now with lkru for fun on balance M i am not trying at all just playing for fun and his hero(shakti) was just lvl 4 at the end of the week when my hero was lvl 8. He probably will win  I am noob cant play for anything
What the spirit LordLazy

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lkru33
lkru33


Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
posted April 13, 2005 02:19 PM
Edited By: lkru33 on 13 Apr 2005

Quote:

P.s Playing game now with lkru for fun on balance M i am not trying at all just playing for fun and his hero(shakti) was just lvl 4 at the end of the week when my hero was lvl 8. He probably will win  I am noob cant play for anything
What the spirit LordLazy


When we saved game, my Shatki was 1000 exp. from lvl 8  and quit being so hard on yourself... you are a good player.  You just decide to play every veteren and top notch player in WW.  So my guess is, you will only get better and better.  

Edit**  I remember Lord Lazy saying that to me once... "Where's the spirit?" because I told him he was too good for me and I shouldn't play him in a game just yet. The more I think of it, he is right... gotta believe you can win every game (even if the opponent is more experienced), otherwise you psych yourself out before you even start and you might as well report the loss before the game begins.
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 13, 2005 03:04 PM

So randoms are becoming more like fixed. And with tribes it gives players a chance to use a town pick...so really the tourney is playing into their hands. Theres only one real way to combat it and thats to play something like midnights mix, where you dont know what template you are getting, and to go with random town/hero.

I advertised a game in the zone tonight and got asked for a game: Massive amount of rules and jebus template only. I say "how about another type of random" he says "I dont know any other random" Clear proof that players are getting in a comfort zone, just like fixed. Although this time they can extend their comfort zone and take town of preference, due to tribes




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Myctteakyshd

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Jebus
Jebus


Promising
Supreme Hero
TheJester akaJeebs akaJebfoo
posted April 13, 2005 03:23 PM

Quote:

I advertised a game in the zone tonight and got asked for a game: Massive amount of rules and jebus template only. I say "how about another type of random" he says "I dont know any other random" Clear proof that players are getting in a comfort zone, just like fixed. Although this time they can extend their comfort zone and take town of preference, due to tribes



Once again, I agree with you.
(you make my posting job allot easier... just sit back, wait for you to post... then agree. )
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lkru33
lkru33


Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
posted April 13, 2005 03:29 PM

Jeb, we cut the rules to a minimum didn't we??

- No Carto
- No Hillfort
- No Diplo
- No Joiners

Everything else fair game for both  



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