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| Thread: German Elections |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Khayman
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posted September 17, 2005 11:02 PM |
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German Elections
I was hoping to get some feedback in regards to the currect elections in Germany. I know that it is a very close race between Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder (Social Democrat) and challenger Angela Merkel (Christian Democrat). I am also aware that unemployent is one of, if not the, biggest issues that is being addressed by both candidates. I was hoping any of our German HC members could provide us some of their personal perspectives and opinions. Thanks.
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Xarfax111
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The last hero standing
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posted September 18, 2005 01:00 AM |
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I guess that pretty complex, so i might miss some points ...also it is my personal point of view...so maybe some do have else opinions and maybe i see some things wrongly (erare humanum est).
So here is my long boring story how i do see things. Boring because the roots to this election and the general problems Germany do have now do begin straight after the war...erm the second one. So if u dont like long boring stories, stop right here. 
Straight after the war Germany was down to nowhere. Normally the winner leave those countries down, and there were of course opinions to let this country down, to not fear a war again coming from this country (quiet understandable).
(Un)fortunately straight through Germany two different political systems clashed right in the middle...one side the "western democratic system"..sometimes called "capitalism"(hehe)..and on the other side the communist side.. sometimes called "party dictatorship".
So as the western side feared that communism get to much influende in western Europe, the plans changed and they pumped money into Western Germany... and they called it "social capitalism". That worked very well as the Germans learned from the Nazi time that "to think as a community" -> not good ...and "to think as a individum" -> good (unfortunately some here think that "elbow egoism" is the same).
So as money was here, and tons of things were to do as everything was broken, and as elbow egoism was the legitim way to go, and as here was very much high technology knowledge developed for war purposes, now taken over for civil things, Germany grow very fast and got very soon very wealthy.
There is even a name for that in German "Das deutsche Wirtschaftswunder" (the German Industrial Wonder). Unemployment rates in Germany were lower then zero. No wonder: Lots of things to do, most of the man were dead. So they even "importet" working staff from other countries.
So over the years people get wealthy...and as it was developed as "social capitalism" and not pure capitalism ..the peeps began to built a huge state social system..still it was payable "with the left finger" as only few countries could compete with our industrial standards. So wages and taxes rise and rise.
When our "work" got to expensive compared to other countries the system turned into bad. Still there were safety for the system due to the "iron wall" to communism side. Unemployment rised over the years in the 80th and 90th ..our chancelor Helmut Kohl at that time made higher and higher dephts to "keep the system goin" and of course to get reelected. For example straight before an election he pumped debt money into "working programms" so that the unemployed rate gets down straight before an important election.
(Un)luckily times changed and the states that "tried to be communist" but were actual party dictator states changed into (more or less) democratic states ..at least capitalist states. The democratic things were implemented by one great man of history, which is in my opinion Gorbatschov. The Germans are still gradeful to him, to the peeps of russia, france and usa that they let us reunite. (a bit grateful to Mr. Reagan although i think he was against it and was just tricked by history).
So Mr. Kohl had already to much depths on our account and now somehow the eastern part of germany, which were almost at the same level like after the war, have to built up again. So what he did was to empty the social systems (like the state pension system), made some more taxes and the money got transfered to our eastern parts. Additional to this Germany was still acting as there were no problem, as our system is not ready to collapse (we still pay a the largest amount to Europe Community, to Nato and so on). Unfortunately all the money wasnt really spent for Industrial Structures, they were mostly spent on state structures..so all the money were gone like water in the Sahara....furthermore these state structures need to be paid on and on..
After 16years of H. Kohl plus the costs for reunion, plus the incredible amount of our depths, people were up for change...finally..lol
So Schröder started with this high depths on his back, unsolved problems in the eastern parts, a high unemployment rate, a huge costful state social system. He was elected to reform the complete system and to make investments more easy and simple. Schröder is one of us..he has his heart on the right side and knows from where he comes....
...unfortunately his "reforms" cant be else described as "diletant" and "unable". Instead of make thinks more simple everything gets even worse complicated by his reforms...unfortunately.
What does have saved his ass in the last election was
1. His handling of the huge flood in easterm part of Germany. Compareably in percent size of the country 2 times bigger then Katrina. His managing of the problem solved the problem quick and unberaucratic (Ape Bush is joke to that).
2. Due to our historic background the Germans never wanted to get involved in a war again. Of course Ape Bush wanted us to join...but Schröder listened to his people and denied (btw the Britain and Spanish didnt wanted to join too, but their asslicking goverments just decided to join).
..so although business things got worse with Schröder, he got a kind of "second chance" ...again he and his party and his coalition partner showed diletantism in business things. Communism is down...so no need to be "social" for the companies ...capitalism shows the true face, and the companies go were theyve willing slaves that work for no money (example: china).
So the circle continues in Germany...high working costs -> companies go outcountry -> more unemployment -> less people pay in the state social system -> higher working costs -> companies go etc etc...
So the main question for the election is....
..Can Schröder or Mrs. Merkel change the spiral?
The answer is: No.
But as Schröder has already proven 2 times that he cant do it, my guess is that Merkel gets a chance to try. In polls she was quiet ahead in the election...but as Schröder is a good TV-Showman Merkels advantage gets smaller and smaller over the month. So tomorrow it might gets a head to head race.
My personal choice is... i cant say ...Merkel is to much a Bush asslicker to be elected, unfortunately she may can better solve the business problems then Schröder. Schröder would be my first choice, unfortunately his business reform unability would bring this country even more down...so hes neither electable for me.
...erm forgive my bad English and my points of views 
Best regards Xarfax1
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2XtremeToTake
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Supreme Hero
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posted September 18, 2005 01:59 AM |
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I wonder if our old friend Andi will vote...
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angelito
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posted September 18, 2005 02:15 AM |
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I´m also more pro Schroeder than pro Merkel, but Xarfax is right about the "devils circle" we do have here in our country. The only thing i don´t want anymore, are the "greens", the coalition partner of the social democrats for the last 7 years. They have some nice ideas, but they exaggerate extreme in all issues. They complain about the high oil price here in germany (1 litre = 1,40 Euro), but raised the taxes on oil enormous and called that "ecology taxes". Nearly 65% of our oil price here are pure taxes!
I could go on and on, but it would get boring very fast.
So i guess it looks like the 2 biggest parties will make a "big coalition". We had that already one time in germany, and it worked quite well. Our difficult political system prevents the government sometimes from making decisions, coz some new laws needs the agreement of the so called "Bundesrat" which is perhaps similar to the senat of the USA. And most of the time (at least in the last 15 years), the majority in the Bundesrat was from the oppositional party than the government...so that way, many decisions and new laws couldn´t pass. With a big coalition, we could prolly make some "tough" but important reforms.
Election is over in 16 hours from now on....let´s hope the best.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 18, 2005 02:54 AM |
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A Question To All Germans:
How many nuclear power plants does your country have?
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bjorn190
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Jebus maker
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posted September 18, 2005 05:10 AM |
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This work issue is a big problem.
Usually when the people have unemployment, they become angry. And now the unemployment is coming. Not because ppl are lazy, but because of macroeconomic and societal changes on an international level.
This will lead to a challenge of the dominant model of society, and things will change. Let's hope it doesn't come to war, but can be resolved peacefully.
I personally think that one way to fix it is to legislate about a minimum level of survival where every person on the planet gets food and a roof over their head, as a right not as something you pay for. Then you can work for better food and a better roof, and other things as well.
Or, we can just have it this way where the strong exploit the weak for a profit, and let the weak fight amongst themselves over the limited amount of jobs. I think it's wrong, but sometimes the world isn't perfect.
The question is: What do we do with all the people who can't support themselves? I think we should help them, at least with the basic stuff. I think that is part of being humanity.
And if you're into market echonomy, we can view that as a cost to pay to have everyone agree to have division of labour. The market is a model of how to run society. If the rules make people starve, then the rules are not right. How can we ask people to believe in a market model where they and the ones they love have to die, when it wasn't necessary?
I think there should be a solid base of human rights, and when those are met, the market comes into play. At least if its practically possible. But that's not the way it is.
Sometimes the world just sucks.
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angelito
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posted September 18, 2005 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
How many nuclear power plants does your country have?
We have currently 18 of them "on net"
Here is a pic of all of them:
The red colored are working, the blue colored are "closed" already. The yeardates at the bottom of the red symbols show the year when they will be taken off from the net.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 18, 2005 05:10 PM |
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I have two questions for any Germans, one on-topic, and one semi-off-topic:
1: What do you think about Die Linke? How are their chances? Think they'll get many seats in the Bundestag?
2: If you're closing down all your nuclear plants, what're they being replaced by? Coal? (Gods forbid...)
EDIT: I ****** up with the name of the German parliament...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted September 18, 2005 10:56 PM |
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Quote:
1a): What do you think about Die Linke? How are their chances? b)Think they'll get many seats in the Reichstag?
b) Yes...erm they got about 50 seats. And hell it is not the "Reichstag" (<--thats how it was called during Nazi Regime) ...it is called the Bundestag (<--parlament of our current democratic system).
a)All the former 4 parties in the Bundestag state that the current social systems needs to be cut..so as they are all the same opininion in this case, the "Die Linke/PDS" (The left Wing/Party of German Socialists), state that those cuts wont lead to more work. My Opinion: At least the appearance of this party shows, that the business clans cant do whatever they want. Although i must state that their concrete plans look more like unreal Utopias.
Quote:
2: If you're closing down all your nuclear plants, what're they being replaced by? Coal? (Gods forbid...)
Well Germany may missed many technology leading positions. For example all recent electronic developments come from outside Germany (Japan, USA etc.). But in the case of natural energy resources we are leading!!--> sun energy, wind energy and some other good things. So the former goverment tried to increase that.. the challenging party (CDU) now wants to increase nuclear power plants (Gods forbid...). Why i am against nuclear plants? Well if a coal plant explodes enough men will die... if a nuclear plant explode well have Hiroshima in the middle of europe...if coal is burned u can i put back on the ground...if nuclear material is burned they will poisen the ground for about 20.000 years (thats about as long as manchild exist). Currently they bury nuclear material somewhere in saltmines and will poisen the surrounding there for 20.000 years... in my opinion this is irresponsible.
My Utopia would be...if the world wouldnt be how the world is.. to make large sun and air power plants in the Sahara..were is enough potential electricial power out of sun and wind for complete Europe. Unfortunately their current goverments are brutal muslim dictatorships... so it doesnt really looks like it to come.
What i dont understand is why a staate like Texas does not see that there is lots and lots of easy money out of sun energy in their deserts. Lots of old oil cowboy thinking...very stubborn and unlike the normal american way of pushing thinks to its best! (Did u know that the Saudi Arabian dictator family owns about 20% of the USA?).
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bjorn190
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posted September 18, 2005 11:38 PM |
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Lets not forget that eventually, the sun will destroy the earth.. so eventually we will have to go to another planet to survive. This finality of earths lifespan makes it alittle less insane to use nuclear power.
Still, it would of course be better with solar power, wind power etc, maybe even fusion or some quantum power thingymajig or even string theory.
The most important thing: Germans are pretty cool (and sometimes funny)
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted September 19, 2005 05:03 AM |
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I know the Texan desserts very well. My entire family lineage(from both parents) is from this place. It is where I come from. But this thread is about Germany, not Texas.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted September 19, 2005 12:08 PM |
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Quote:
The most important thing: Germans are pretty cool (and sometimes funny)
...erm, well terje asked for a serious answer. Ok, next time i put in some emoticons (  ) in for u to make it cooler and more funny for u.
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angelito
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posted September 19, 2005 01:21 PM |
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So the results are present now. Some surprising was seen in the faces of most of the politicians yesterday.
CDU/CSU (christ-democrats, Merkel): 35,2%
SPD (social-democrats, Schroeder): 34,3%
Die Grünen (greens, eco, Fischer): 8,1%
FDP (liberals, Westerwelle): 9,8%
Die Linke (communists, Gysi + Lafontaine): 8,7%
Most people thought the CDU/CSU would make a coalition with the FDP. But Merkel recieved way less votes than expected (last polling said 42% at least), so this coalition would not have the majority.
Big coalition between Schroeder and Merkel won´t happen it seems, coz Schroeder does NOT want to be a "junior partner" under a chancellor Merkel.
No1 wants to make a coalition with the communists.
FDP and "Die Gruenen" are way too different to be in the same government.
So all in all it looks like a deadlock. If Mrs. Merkel can´t create a government with a good majority, then we will probably have again a NEW election in about 1-2 months....
Stagnancy is Regression.....poor germany.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
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blah, blah, blah
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posted September 19, 2005 06:25 PM |
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Quote:
the blue colored are "closed" already. The yeardates at the bottom of the red symbols show the year when they will be taken off from the net.
WTF are they closing them for???!!!!!
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angelito
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posted September 19, 2005 07:18 PM |
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Germany will stop getting electricity from nuclear technology. This process will be done step by step until year 2021. So one power plant after the other will be shut down.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted September 19, 2005 08:58 PM |
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Quote:
Germany will stop getting electricity from nuclear technology. This process will be done step by step until year 2021. So one power plant after the other will be shut down.
but.... why?????
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angelito
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posted September 19, 2005 11:28 PM |
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Perhaps coz there are "safer" ways to get electricity?
Imagine 9/11....they wouldn´t hit a skyscraper, but a nuclear power plant....or imagine what happened in Chernobyl years ago.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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terje_the_ma...
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Disciple of Herodotus
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posted September 19, 2005 11:43 PM |
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Well, to once again quote Hans Blix - longtime senior officer of the IAEA:
"I'm more worried about what the effects of CO2 emissions will do in the next 20 years, than what nuclear waste will do in the next 20.000."
However, if you're gonna replace it with renewable and less polluting energy scources, as Xarfax said, then the matter looks entirely different.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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bjorn190
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posted September 20, 2005 12:54 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Germany will stop getting electricity from nuclear technology. This process will be done step by step until year 2021. So one power plant after the other will be shut down.
but.... why?????
Its a mix between:
1. Moral panic
2. Lack of rational analysis of cause and effect of various sources of energy.
3. Need for coalition with the "green" political forces.
Right now it looks like we wont be stopping with the CO2 until the water level rises a couple of feet and increasing natural disasters wipe out the actual powerplants. Stupid if u ask me, but since the world is still struggling for power, there is no room for consideration for the environment or the future. :/
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted September 20, 2005 04:04 PM |
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Quote:
Its a mix between:
1. Moral panic
2. Lack of rational analysis of cause and effect of various sources of energy.
3. Need for coalition with the "green" political forces.
As Joseph Stalin would say "We have green political forces? Do we need them?"
(For those who didn't get the above - those words would normally result in a country not having any "greens" left in a matter of a 1-2 days.)
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