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| Thread: Heroes 5 Hero Skills, Abilities and Specialities |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 11, 2006 10:54 AM |
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Quote:
It may be true.
But going to the absolute ability every game makes them very repetitive already. If you want diversity, you won't follow that path anyway.
Sure ... but it's just stupid to make this ultimate ability you could learn, which will sort of provide you with the ideal force of your class - and then force the players to either not use it (which makes you hero less usefull than he could be) or make them play the same way every time (which optimizes the hero, but makes less gameplay). I just don't think that's the wisest move when creating the game.
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What will happen now?
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 12, 2006 12:30 AM |
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I think you're failing to consider both the possible length of a game and the hero specialties when you say that the ultimate ability is always the most optimizing path for a hero to take.
Let's take, for example, the warlock Sinitar, whose specialty is the reduced mana cost of empowered spells (50% more damage) for each level gained (with each level, spells cost less mana). He starts with basic destructive magic (a good choice for someone who is clearly designed to cast a lot of direct damage spells), and he can get the ability, Secrets of Destruction, to get 2 more knowledge (to keep that mana pool full). It would be wise to pick up sorcery as well; the basic skill lets him cast more spells, Arcane Training reduces the mana cost by 20%, Mana Regeneration doubles the rate he regains mana, and Erratic Mana reduces the cost by up to 50%, giving a good chance that Sinitar can cast empowered spells for less mana than the spell's original mana cost. Summoning Magic gives more spell options, and the ability Exorcism makes Sinitar's spells do 300% (150% from empowered spells x 2) more damage to summoned or gated troops (uh oh infero). Enlightment might be another nice choice, giving more experience and primary stat growth, plus Intelligence (150% max mana), Dark Revelation (free level up), and Wizard's reward (+2 spell power) all sound like nice perks. Luck also seems very benificial, the basic skill giving a chance for even more damage off of elemental chains, and the ability Warlock's Luck, which sometimes gives double damage to spells.
With these five skills (Destructive Magic, Sorcery, Summoning Magic, Enlightenment, and Luck), Sinitar (who probably has a fairly impressive spellpower at this point) has 150% normal mana and casts spells at lower-than-normal mana cost, 30% more often, that do at least 150% normal damage, with a chance of doing 300% normal damage (against most troops). Against summoned and gated troops, he is guarunteed at least 300% damage, with a chance at 600% damage.
Assuming he has 15 spell power, implosion would do at least 900 damage, possibly 1800 to most troops (at least 1800, possibly 3600 to most summmoned/gated troops), all of this could possibly cost him as little as 5 or 6 mana, and he could cast it 30% more often than normal.
Rage of the Elements, Double Damage to Elemental Chains, sounds useful, but he's still got a chance at it with his luck skill. Would you throw away all of that potential to have an extermely ridiculous spellcaster just to make sure that your chains always do double-damage? Would you always choose that path?
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does someone wanna loan me the money to buy a computer good enough to play H5 by the time it hits the shelves?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 12, 2006 01:25 AM |
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Wow ... that was a fairly complex example ... I don't quite know how to respond to that, apart from noting that you give a pretty good example of what I refer to yourself: If he has these 5 skills, he'll be really powerfull, which meens basically you'll aim for this combination each time.
Generally speaking, it might not be a problem - I don't know, I haven't played the game yet (not even the beta) - it just seems wrong to me, that there are these limitations, because they place, well, limitations on the game play. If you make some sort of strategy to aim for some certain ability, and you never get that fifth skill needed for this ability, it'll be rather frustrating, because you might end up getting nothing at all, to put it on the edge. Of course you'll get something, but you might not get those really nice special abilities you'd like to have.
I think the power of the Heroes 4 skill system was, that every combo had something to offer. Of course, there were some problems - most importantly, there were simply too many sublevels in each skill, and generally you'd only get offered subskills from one skill until you got the other from some external source (probably with the exception of Combat, which was the only skill I didn't like). The beauty of the Heroes 4 system was, the no matter which skill I ended up with, it offered me something useful, and any combination of 2 skills would give me a subclass. I think that was rather cool. Sometimes, you could get a sub-sub class by combining three skills, which was of course extra cool - but I think all combinations would offer you something.
On a quite different topic, I think many of the new skills are really useless. Like, gain 1000 XP and 1 knowledge ... wooohooo, this will really improve my level 20 hero ... I liked the Heroes 4 approach of fewer and more powerfull skills.
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 12, 2006 01:57 AM |
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there are other ways you could combo off of a hero's specialty that could be as, or more, beneficial than the list I gave you for Sinitar just then. Some of those skills aren't as important...suppose you substitute offense, defense, leadership, or logistics for enlightenment or summoning magic...maybe you want your troops to pack an extra punch instead, or take less damage, or act more often, or just be able to move your hero further (and teleport hydras with added initiative). You still get the bulk of what made the previous combination good, plus a mixed strategy to possibly counter something that may cut down its effectiveness.
As I said before, the size of the map (and your opponent) play important roles in what sort of branch you should try to develop. If it's a smaller map, you shouldn't really aim for as many mass combos of skills if there's an option that is more effective more quickly. Likewise, if your opponent is building a counter-strategy to that specialty, it's good to have a back-up plan. Ultimately, I don't think there is any one path for any hero that will always yield the best results.
I agree it was cool in HOMM4 that all the skills seemed useful, comboing was neat, and there weren't little dinky abilities that just gave you some exp/gold/mana/spell and a primary stat boost. Personally I'm glad to see the halfway point between 3 and 4, where a lot of the less useful skills from 3 have become abilities in skill branches, but there's not quite the overwhleming feeling of trying to memorize the consequences of every pairing of skills.
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does someone wanna loan me the money to buy a computer good enough to play H5 by the time it hits the shelves?
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2006 04:23 AM |
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okiesolidarity, that's a great and detailed example!!
Thanks for that. 
And I completely agree with you.
alcibiades, the flow in your reasoning is that there are in fact no uber skills in H5, as the example was meant to show. Depending on the situation, you can have different interests, and you always have many good choices.
As for H4, while I liked the skill system and found it one of the greater improvement to H3, I have been mostly frustrated with the subclass system. Contrary to what you say, they're not all useful, and depending on your choices (which you didn't always control, when offered a limited choice), you would change subclass, even for a less interesting one (see Enchanter vs Illusionist). As for the three-skills subclass, there was only one: the Archmage.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes4/heroclasses.shtml
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 12, 2006 04:52 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:53, 12 May 2006.
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For all those (inlcuding me), who want to see the whole skill tree which contains all requirements to recieve the "ultimate" skill, i made a small graphic for every fraction.
Academy
Dungeon
Haven
Inferno
Necropolis
Sylvan
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 13, 2006 12:12 AM |
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THANK YOU FOR THESE!!!
I'll save them right away - extremely usefull! Just a pity that you'll have to use 5 or 6 of your skill slots in forced order if you'll have that ability - but hopefully, gameplay will show that there are other equally good paths to choose. And it seems you'll in all cases be stuck with some crappy skill like Luck, Warmachines or Sorcery: 
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Hrushov17
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 13, 2006 12:13 AM |
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Great job angelito ur da best 
I've got one question though abt magic...if u do not have let's say dark magic so taht means u cannot learn ne spells of dark magic of lvl 3 and above?? and os on for other magic schools...?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 13, 2006 12:40 AM |
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Yes, thatīs how it works. You can learn any spells of level 1 and 2, but for level 3 and higher, u need that specific magic school.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Hrushov17
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 13, 2006 03:24 AM |
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well to get the ultimate skills I'm gonna have to choose so much skills that I would not or choose something else over it  I like magic my hero is usually magic based and I won't be able to learn some magic skills nemore daaamn lol
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 13, 2006 10:47 AM |
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Quote:
well to get the ultimate skills I'm gonna have to choose so much skills that I would not or choose something else over it I like magic my hero is usually magic based and I won't be able to learn some magic skills nemore daaamn lol
Yeah, personally I think a spelcasting hero without light magic and dark magic would be very badly off. However, be aware that with the Sorcery-Magic Insight ability, you'll be able to learn spells of all schools up to level 3 and the Arcane Omniscience ability (ultimate wizard ability) will allow you to learn and cast all spells at expert ability.  I'm gonna love playing wizard.
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Hrushov17
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 13, 2006 01:35 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
well to get the ultimate skills I'm gonna have to choose so much skills that I would not or choose something else over it I like magic my hero is usually magic based and I won't be able to learn some magic skills nemore daaamn lol
Yeah, personally I think a spelcasting hero without light magic and dark magic would be very badly off. However, be aware that with the Sorcery-Magic Insight ability, you'll be able to learn spells of all schools up to level 3 and the Arcane Omniscience ability (ultimate wizard ability) will allow you to learn and cast all spells at expert ability. I'm gonna love playing wizard.
the acadamy's ultimate ability IS awsome but I like dungeon much more..lol daaaamn I have to learn to love acadamy now
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Silverhawk5504
Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
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posted May 15, 2006 04:09 AM |
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Inferno Question
I was wondering...if anyone knows for a fact,
if Uregash's Call requires light magic. Meaning,
to get Twilight, do I need to learn light magic,
because there are no light magic prerequisites.
It seems that logically, I would need light magic
in order to do this but i'm not sure.
If yes, then i'm quite dissapointed because in my
opinion, leadership would have been much better
for the ability to bring 20% more gated units.
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~Dima
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 15, 2006 04:15 AM |
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Quote:
I was wondering...if anyone knows for a fact,
if Uregash's Call requires light magic. Meaning,
to get Twilight, do I need to learn light magic,
because there are no light magic prerequisites.
It seems that logically, I would need light magic
in order to do this but i'm not sure.
If yes, then i'm quite dissapointed because in my
opinion, leadership would have been much better
for the ability to bring 20% more gated units.
sadly, yes, you do need light magic to learn twilight. despite the fact that there are no requirements within the branch of light magic to learn it, you need to have light magic as a skill to learn ANY of the abilities it provides.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 15, 2006 11:07 AM |
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Edited by sfidanza at 11:09, 15 May 2006.
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You might want to wait a few days for the release version, in case they changed the requirements. Obviously, Urgash's Call requires 6 skills, while the other ultimate abilities require "only" 5. That may call for a fix.
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Mantra
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 15, 2006 01:32 PM |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 15, 2006 03:28 PM |
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By the way, did anyone notice that Luck seems to take an unreasonable large amount of space in these skill trees? 4 of the 6 super abilities requires Luck. Also, Attack is required for 4 of them, and Logistics for 5! On the other hand, Defence is only required for 1 special ability, whereas Leadership doesn't contribute to any of them! Might have been fun if they tried to balance it a bit further.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 09:02 PM |
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Just from reading the list, wouldn't 'Enlightenment' have to be one of the best? An extra stat point every other level would be huge.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 17, 2006 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
They won't.
They have.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 18, 2006 11:39 AM |
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BUG FIX:
Guardian Angel: When all the Knight's troops fall dead in combat, an Angel, summoned on a field of battle, resurrects the most powerful group of dead creatures and disappears.
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