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| Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -INFERNO- |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 26, 2009 09:09 PM |
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Quote:
Inferno is more of a magic town than might; e.g. have a look at the non-upgraded 7 lvl unit - an emaciated, apron-wearing, squeaky-voiced guy named "Devil"? With pathetic attack skill and damage? Seriously, I know PLENTY of 6 lvl units better than him (not than the ARCH Devil, though).
Efreeti Sultan are immune to Fire Spells and have fire shield, but unless they attack the stack of (more numerous) Master Genies, I am not that sure they'll win the duel, as Master Genies really can get angry enough to attack much above their 5th level when against Efreet.
Pit Lords - more some kind of sorcerers than rough warriors, but the thing is neither does it repay to use their ressurecting ability, nor are they a decent match for other 5 th level units unless their commander has high attack skill.
Cerberi - non-retaliatory attack is an efficient ability but they only deal a decent damage when attacking three stacks at the same time, in one-to-one combat, they're weak.
The rest are pathetic, objectively.
You really should play that game more often 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 07:15 PM |
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Quote:
Inferno is more of a magic town than might; e.g. have a look at the non-upgraded 7 lvl unit - an emaciated, apron-wearing, squeaky-voiced guy named "Devil"? With pathetic attack skill and damage? Seriously, I know PLENTY of 6 lvl units better than him (not than the ARCH Devil, though).
Efreeti Sultan are immune to Fire Spells and have fire shield, but unless they attack the stack of (more numerous) Master Genies, I am not that sure they'll win the duel, as Master Genies really can get angry enough to attack much above their 5th level when against Efreet.
Pit Lords - more some kind of sorcerers than rough warriors, but the thing is neither does it repay to use their ressurecting ability, nor are they a decent match for other 5 th level units unless their commander has high attack skill.
Cerberi - non-retaliatory attack is an efficient ability but they only deal a decent damage when attacking three stacks at the same time, in one-to-one combat, they're weak.
The rest are pathetic, objectively.
1 Devil vs 2 of ANY L6 units = devil wins. And no, 2 black knights donīt beat a devil, sorry to burst your bubble.
Pit Lords are among the hardest hitters of all L5s.
And did you know that you can keep summoned demons?
Cerberi: no other L3 beats them 1on1. Period.
Peeps who donīt bother to really play this game think Inferno is weak.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 07:35 PM |
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Cerberi: no other L3 beats them 1on1. Period.
Err, Wraith, sorry. Wraith beats a lot 1on1, Cerberus as well. Just saying. Nothing against Cerberi, I love the doggies. They are great. No discussion.
Anyway. Yeah, Inferno rrrrocks. And it's such an interesting town, tactically.
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Geltnim
Hired Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 08:19 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Inferno is more of a magic town than might; e.g. have a look at the non-upgraded 7 lvl unit - an emaciated, apron-wearing, squeaky-voiced guy named "Devil"? With pathetic attack skill and damage? Seriously, I know PLENTY of 6 lvl units better than him (not than the ARCH Devil, though).
Efreeti Sultan are immune to Fire Spells and have fire shield, but unless they attack the stack of (more numerous) Master Genies, I am not that sure they'll win the duel, as Master Genies really can get angry enough to attack much above their 5th level when against Efreet.
Pit Lords - more some kind of sorcerers than rough warriors, but the thing is neither does it repay to use their ressurecting ability, nor are they a decent match for other 5 th level units unless their commander has high attack skill.
Cerberi - non-retaliatory attack is an efficient ability but they only deal a decent damage when attacking three stacks at the same time, in one-to-one combat, they're weak.
The rest are pathetic, objectively.
1 Devil vs 2 of ANY L6 units = devil wins. And no, 2 black knights donīt beat a devil, sorry to burst your bubble.
Pit Lords are among the hardest hitters of all L5s.
And did you know that you can keep summoned demons?
Cerberi: no other L3 beats them 1on1. Period.
Peeps who donīt bother to really play this game think Inferno is weak.
Devils are cute babies in comparison to Dread Knights; sure, 2 Dread Knights may not be that much of a deal for a Devil (though even then, I doubt he'd win them all alone) but 8 Dread Knights will CRUSH the 4 Devils, even if they attack first. Of 8 Naga Queens vs. 4 Devils I won't even start. 8 Magic Elementals would also do, but the chances for 4 Devils are much higher here. A Devil, with his non-retaliatory strike will be the terror for those whose attack can be retaliated against, but let Devils attack someone whose attack they cannot retaliate - now, that's more of a fair fight.
A Pit Lord can 1 on 1 beat: a Magma Elemental, Zealot, Power Lich, MAYBE a Master Genie, and another Pit Lord. He will die if he challenges: a Roc, Mighty Gorgon, Minotaur, Dendroid Soldier, and Ogre Mage.
A Cerberus strong enough to defeat an Iron Golem? 
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 27, 2009 11:27 PM |
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The biggest fault offline players do when comparing towns is, they compare unit for unit. It's like you would compare 2 soccer teams by comparing the palyers of each team who have the same numbers. A wise man once said: 11 good players do NOT make a good team!
So stop comparing pit lords with dendroids. Pit lords make your army stronger because they raise demons...LOTS of demons. And THEY are the reason why most towns will lose vs Inferno on bigger maps.
And if 1 devil beats 2 knights, why will 4 devils lose vs 8 knights then? Where is the sense behind that?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted August 27, 2009 11:47 PM |
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Edited by Casihasi at 23:48, 27 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
A Cerberus strong enough to defeat an Iron Golem?
Iīll just pick out this little gem..yep speed 8 vs speed 5 and no retal indeed makes the Cerberus a winner vs. an iron golem.
You should try that some day, it could help you understand why the fast Inferno units can be a real threat
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Geltnim
Hired Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 12:20 AM |
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The biggest fault offline players do when comparing towns is, they compare unit for unit. It's like you would compare 2 soccer teams by comparing the palyers of each team who have the same numbers. A wise man once said: 11 good players do NOT make a good team!
So stop comparing pit lords with dendroids. Pit lords make your army stronger because they raise demons...LOTS of demons. And THEY are the reason why most towns will lose vs Inferno on bigger maps.
And if 1 devil beats 2 knights, why will 4 devils lose vs 8 knights then? Where is the sense behind that?
What is that "LOTS"? Describe me adequateness of the word "LOTS" in the context when out of 10 killed arch devils/efreet sultans, or any other 6-7 lvl creature can only arise 10 demons? Is it not more fair that out of one arch devil I get at least 5 or 7 demons, which would make it 50 demons per 10 arch devils. Very much more decent and balanced, if you ask me. Pit lords should be reserved for attacks only, though pit fiends replace them fine enough here.
Besides, if you don't trust me about the pit lords, try the link where an experienced gamer describes it well enough:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3/creaturesinferno.shtml
Oh, and 8 Dread Knights can, on average, deal at least 250 damage per slash, which is more than enough to kill the 150 damage-dealing stack of 4 Devils. No hard algebra, really.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 01:01 AM |
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Besides, if you don't trust me about the pit lords, try the link where an experienced gamer describes it well enough:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3/creaturesinferno.shtml
experienced gamer...hahaha...the guy who writes all this non-sense would lose to every average online player. Wait, actually he would lose to all bad online players, too.
Ooooh i love newbies, so cute and selfish about their opinions
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 08:32 AM |
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And if 1 devil beats 2 knights, why will 4 devils lose vs 8 knights then? Where is the sense behind that?
There is some sense behind that - double damage in the beginning may help a lot 8DK*20damage(below the average)*2 = 320 = 2 devils. 
Quote:
What is that "LOTS"? Describe me adequateness of the word "LOTS" in the context when out of 10 killed arch devils/efreet sultans, or any other 6-7 lvl creature can only arise 10 demons? Is it not more fair that out of one arch devil I get at least 5 or 7 demons, which would make it 50 demons per 10 arch devils. Very much more decent and balanced, if you ask me. Pit lords should be reserved for attacks only, though pit fiends replace them fine enough here.
Demons are usually summoned from low level creatures - the best exchange 2 dwarves = 1 demon.
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Your advertisement could be
here only for 100$ per day. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 09:12 AM |
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Let's see. The Devils will always get the first 2 attacks, unretaliated. In this posts its about "Devils" and "Black Knights", so look here first.
1 Devil will do 40 damage per attack against Black Knights, per attack, while 1 BK will do 20 against a devil. The devils will always get the first 2 attacks, unretaliated, while the devils will retaliate each BK attack. So with 2 against 4 this goes:
+80
+80 (1BK dead)
-60 +80 (1BK dead)
+80
-40 +80 (1BK dead)
+80 (BKs finished)
There is a 20% chance to Curse the Devils which would reduce devil's damafe to 34. Even if this worked with the 1st BK attack, it would change to:
+80
+80 (1BK dead)
-60 (C) +68
+68 (1BK dead)
-40 +68 (1BK dead)
+68
-20 +68 (BKs finished)
with 8 against 4 this is
+160 (1BK dead)
+160 (1BK (dead)
-120 +160 (2BKs dead)
+160 (1 BK dead)
-60 (1 Devil dead) +120 (1BK dead)
+120 (1 BK dead)
-20 +120 (BKs finished)
Edit:
With Dread Knights the situation only slightly changes attack/defense difference is lightly better for Dread Knights, reducing Devil's damage to 36 and upping DK's to 21 - the difference is an additional 20% chance to do double damage for the DKs. Now, obviously, the best that can happen is a start with double damage and Curse, and in this case the table 8 against 4 starts with
+144 (1DK dead)
+144 (1DK dead)
-252 (1 Devil dead) (C) +93 (1 DK dead)
+93
At this point there are still 5 DKs left who will kill a second Devil even without double damage. Of course the chance that the DKs will deal double damage and curse the devils in their very first attack is only 4%. Without the additional Curse effect the 4th devil hit will kill the 4th DK. While this will STILL kill the 2nd devil, you are back at an equal loss and the DK's need basically another double attack in their 2nd or 3rd hit which is stretching luck.
If the first hit of the DKs has NO additional effect:
+144 (1 dead)
+144 (1 dead)
-126 +144 (1 dead)
+144 (1 dead)
the DKs are obviously in trouble, only 4 are left. A double hit + Curse NOW will lead to
-168 (1 dead) (C) + 93 (1 dead)
+93 (1 dead) leaving 2 DKs. Another lucky double hit will lead to:
-84 (1 dead) +62
+62 (1 dead). And another lucky double hit
-42 +62
+62 (DKs finished)
What that means is that simple Devils will win handsomely against Dread Knights always - except that after a lucky first-attack-double-damage hit a win becomes possible IF another double attack happens soon, especially if a first round Curse can be scored.
Of course the Dreads need to be extremely lucky there.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 12:43 PM |
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Yea Jolly good post...the newbies all forget that 8 Knights = only 6 Knights after the Devils got in their first 2 hits.
Itīs amazing how pointless the arguing with them is, they think they know it all while in fact they know absolutely nothing.
H3 is the only game where i encountered such a high density of smartass n00bs posting. Itīs amazing but also very boring for this forum...
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 28, 2009 01:32 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:33, 28 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
What is that "LOTS"? Describe me adequateness of the word "LOTS" in the context when out of 10 killed arch devils/efreet sultans, or any other 6-7 lvl creature can only arise 10 demons? Is it not more fair that out of one arch devil I get at least 5 or 7 demons, which would make it 50 demons per 10 arch devils. Very much more decent and balanced, if you ask me. Pit lords should be reserved for attacks only, though pit fiends replace them fine enough here.
Urrghh...sorry, but this post made me shudder...
Have you EVER played with Inferno at all?
Since when do you use HIGH LEVEL creatures to raise demons?
You use first, second and 3rd level units to raise them. This could be your own units (imps, gogs, hellhounds), or those you get from neutral towns (always level 1 and 2 prebuilt!)
And now imagine you get ring of life artefact (which is pretty common on bigger maps)...this will increase the amount of demons you raise enormously.
And what is evem more important, you can use the demons themselves for raising. This comes in handy in utopia fights for example, where you let them attack all the drags until the demons are dead, and then raise the whole stack with your pit lords again. Utopia fight without any losses...
Quote:
Besides, if you don't trust me about the pit lords, try the link where an experienced gamer describes it well enough:
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3/creaturesinferno.shtml
I trust my 10 year experience of H3 rather than some "half"-professional informations...
Quote:
Oh, and 8 Dread Knights can, on average, deal at least 250 damage per slash, which is more than enough to kill the 150 damage-dealing stack of 4 Devils. No hard algebra, really.
Yeah...no hard algebra....but in algebra, you always have to take into consideration ALL informations, not only the ones you see on the first view!
Hint Only 6 knights are on the battlefield any longer, when they will have their first hit!
Now please do YOUR math
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Geltnim
Hired Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 01:53 PM |
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Yea Jolly good post...the newbies all forget that 8 Knights = only 6 Knights after the Devils got in their first 2 hits.
Itīs amazing how pointless the arguing with them is, they think they know it all while in fact they know absolutely nothing.
H3 is the only game where i encountered such a high density of smartass n00bs posting. Itīs amazing but also very boring for this forum...
That I'm green and new on the forum is true. That I'm inexperienced in playing HoMM3 couldn't be further from the truth. I'm playing it for some 7 and a half years; since the end of 2001, to be most precise. Too short a period for someone to get familiar not just with a game but with any discipline studied?
I played with each of the 9 towns many times, and I know well enough how each creature works. I know the frailty of Devils and the sturdiness of Dread Knights. Devils are WEAK! I know it's hard to admit, but they are! Upgrade to Arch Devils and wait until their commander has at least over 4 attack skill, as arch devils are tough to kill but deal less damage than some other 7 lvl creatures (Black Dragons, Titans, Archangels (duh!)...)
Among the 7 lvl creatures, why do the Devils deserve the status of the "feared" opponents? Because of their special abilities: they reduce enemy's luck for one (though it's not that much of a minus, really), do 150% against Angels, and, maybe most importantly - have a non-retaliatory strike. Otherwise, they don't have the Giants' mind spell immunity, are vulnerable to all spells whatsoever, don't have the behemoths' ability to slash through the opponent's defense... And they don't do maximum damage as often as rumored, I don't know whoever came up with the idea the do.
Perhaps, when you saw arch devils in your army did, e.g., 70 damage per each arch devil, that is, obviously because of your hero's high attack skill. If the same hero took dread knights with him, they would also do 70 damage per each 2 dread knights (if attacking an opponent with a non-increased defense skill, that is).
Black Knights and especially Dread Knights well deserve all the praises about them being among the mightiest, if not the mightiest, 6 lvl creatures (Naga Queens and Efreet Sultans could try to make a tie). They always do max damage, curse their opponents, have an amazing 120 HP value, and are more numerous than Devils. And the Death Blow (double damage) that a pack-lots of Dread Knights can do is just overwhelming. They compensate for their non-retaliatory strike decently enough, I'd say.
I did my best to exclude all sentimentality and subjectivity from my proofs and explanations, as, in my case, definitions come before adoration, not the other way round.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 02:14 PM |
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Devils are cute babies in comparison to Dread Knights; sure, 2 Dread Knights may not be that much of a deal for a Devil (though even then, I doubt he'd win them all alone) but 8 Dread Knights will CRUSH the 4 Devils, even if they attack first.
If you read my post you will see that 8 DREAD Knights will win against 4 (simple) Devils only if their first attack strike is a double hit PLUS a couple of lucky things after this happen. If the first attack strike of them is NO double attack (80% probability) then they will ALWAYS lose.
No offense, but if you play the game for 7 years now, as you say, you seem to could have put the time playing as Inferno to a bit better use.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 02:16 PM |
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Edited by Casihasi at 14:17, 28 Aug 2009.
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So you played h3 for ~7 years, and consider devils weak while you mention some good things about Giants & Behemoths?
Devils are speed 11. This helps your main hero run fast (along with efreets).
Behemoths and Giants simply donīt compare...they are flat out useless compared to Devils.
What about fighting mighty gorgons for example? What would you want, Devils or ANY other non-upgraded L7 unit? Maybe with the exception of Hydras, who can do miracles for you too sometimes...
Or how about fighting a horde of iron golems, and you only have a small army. Devils with their good speed and no retal can make many things possible.
I can almost feel my brain melt like ice in the sunshine when i browse here, rofl...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 28, 2009 02:56 PM |
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Man, aren't you all just a cheerful bunch here in the H3 forum? 
Anyway, I know where my money would lie, and that's with the Dread Knights. Why? Because the Forsaken Palace costs an assload of resources, and on top of that Arch Devils themselves are rediculously overpriced (4500 + 2 Mercury, lol?). It may be that Devils will beat Death Knights on a 1:2 basis, but chances are you won't face them on a 1:2 basis because you only can affort Devils later.
But before anyone will come and bash me, yeah, I'm just a noob, I did play H3 for some 7 years, but what do I know anyway, I was never that competitive a player and never really knew all those anal (sorry) tricks for optimizing that seems to be the codec of online playing, so just offering my completely personal and biased oppinion here.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 03:00 PM |
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Alci, even as a 7-year-noob you should know that you can't pick between Devils and Dread Knights, at least not on the overwhelming majority of maps...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 28, 2009 03:10 PM |
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Alci, even as a 7-year-noob you should know that you can't pick between Devils and Dread Knights, at least not on the overwhelming majority of maps...
Silly me. 
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What will happen now?
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 03:11 PM |
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But before anyone will come and bash me, yeah, I'm just a noob, I did play H3 for some 7 years, but what do I know anyway, I was never that competitive a player and never really knew all those anal (sorry) tricks for optimizing that seems to be the codec of online playing, so just offering my completely personal and biased oppinion here.
See there is the problem, it has nothing to do with anal tricks or codecs...when i started with h3 i quickly thought iam a decent player.
So the day came when I played my first online games, and the good players kicked my A$$ so badly that i quickly realized that only online gaming defines who is good and who is a newbie.
If you are not willing to accept this, and wonīt listen to experienced online players, you will always be... a newbie
Just trust me with this, if you never played online you know maybe 25% about this game. Not much more. But people usually donīt believe this, they underestimate the learning curve of h3 (which makes it so much fun btw...).
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Lumske_Beaver
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 04:50 PM |
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Unopgraded Devils beat all other seven level creatures one vs. one, but if theres more than one, angels easily beat devils. Upgraded thay beat every others than AB's (different outcomes) and arch angels. Bth this discussion do really not tell if you're a noob or not. Of course 4 devils is clearly stonger than 8 dread knights but this information dont make you a good player.
I'll say its a quite worthless discussion that dont improve your playabilities worth mentioning.
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