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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2006 06:44 PM |
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I cant agree that the skeleton collection was the only tactic in necros so far.In H3 the power distrubution was something different from other castles.The last level and the 2nd 3rd level were underpowered while the rest top stack were overpowered.When I played the skeletons werent the main focus of the army but were just nice additions.Dread Knights simply overtook the job of bone dragons with high attack defense and double strike.The thing that throw the necro off the balance was too good wampires.They didnt die simply.But the idea was not about depending on skeletons but depending on 4th+5th+6th level combination rather than 7th level.If you remember the 7th levels were far more powerfull in those days(which I like in H5 that they are more even).I liked necro back than and in H2 but in H4 only wampire game was boring.
Also it doesnt mean that it has been that way in the past so it must go that way.Changes are possible.Also I do think the necro should be able to go to head to head with other factions with combined hero and spells and higher growth.The necromancy is not a blessing from the gods other factions also have racial abilities which help them also.It should be an extra for player like gating.
One tactic game is not a strategy game.A skeleton collecting race shouldnt be the way to go for the necro.Just wining with hordes of skeletons is not strategy nor it is enjoyable.
Phoenixzs ... I love your posts.  Very precise and great points.
I would like to add, that when I played Necro, I never relied on my Skeletons! Oh sure, as said, they were nice backup against a really tough foe where you wanted something to dash out a lot of damage, and well, you didn't really care whether they perished - but during gameplay, I always relied on the combination of Vampire Lords, Liches and Dread Knights to do the dirty work for me. This wonderfull combination always worked wonders, Vampire Lords to the beatings and ressurected themselves in the proces, Liches dashed out damage to multiple units from the back, and Dread Knights were imployed in a dash-and-run tactics of keaping them out of harms way and only finnishing out units the Vampires had topped off. Skeletons - they would never enter main battle, but would usually just keep away anyone who might wanna block my Lichers. So for me, this new depency on Skeletons is entirely new, and I find it rather dull.
Oh, and I have to throw in a comment on the Inferno issue. First of all, I think Inferno is fairly ballanced, even though I must admit I did not use the War Machines when I played with them. However, I think it's important to remember that Instant Gating will only happen at level 30+ (and therefore isn't important in the overall power ballance consideration), the Ballista will be destroyed taken only 250 points of dammage - not too impressive to rely on, Vorpal Sword might be better than the Wraith's Harm Touch, but the Pit Lord has horrible innitiative and speed and is very unlikely to be a very important factor in melee combat - and yes, you might possibly make 7 groups and kill of 7 monsters with this ability, but again, it's unlikely to win your battles, and then most importantly: For all their advantages, Inferno has the lowest powergrowth of all cities, they only have 1 shooting unit + 1 offensive caster with relatively few spellpoints and they only have 1 flyer! So my impression so far is, Inferno is not overpowered. Certain tactics might work very well for some specifik heroes, but overall, it's no problem.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 06:46 PM |
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-Aging was not spectacular. WHEN IT WORKED, it was the most powerful unit ability in the game, but it could also easily be dispeled or cured, and it was unlikely that your Ghost Dragons would survive retalliation from that other lv 7 stack. Yes, while it is great in theory to half the HP of that stack of Behemoths, it's too bad that you're going to eat full damage, plus some from defense reduction. Ghost Dragons were still poor.
Aging would kill the game. Consider this scenario:
-You get a horde of skellies. I guess thats usual.
-You take some thougher creature of choice vamp/lich/wight
-You take some spectre dragons(3/week) with aging and split them into 5 groups.
You attack 1 creature with all the spectres. You have 67% chance to at least halve their hps. Thats much isnt it? Eating full damage? High sp + animate dead solves this problem(?). With aging there is no single creature that can match the spectre dragon. Ow and necros specialize in school of summoning which holds phantom forces which can make this tactic even more effective.
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Klaital
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 07:07 PM |
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You can get instant gating around level 25 to Grok if you get few of the skills you need from witchs huts, as he starts with logistics + pathfinding.
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 10, 2006 03:02 AM |
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shassz: well okay I was not reading it as a joke... I just like to say truce and peace between us, you do have an excellent knowledge of the game, I am not downgrade you in any way, I just worked really hard during that time and did not get alot of satisfaction out of being used and then they turn a product that I enjoyed ever since the original Might and Magic I that was played on 5 1/4" floppies... And that dates me to the point I dont see alot of humor in business and those types of "flame attacks".. I will try laughing more... thanks
Now back to our regularly scheduled necro topic... No way in inferno that powerful, gating is dusted when you destory its original stack. makes it kinda useless to me and that has been my necro tactics with inferno, take out all the solids, (phantoms forces only by spell) and just let the gaters die when they are only a fraction of the original stack, and not all are actually gateable. I wont ever see any more devils or archdevils pop up. but I can generate a crap load more lvl 7 drags (why waste my time i know) but that is still possible. Not everyone is thinking outside the box.. It takes a completely different mindset to play necro and to be good at it.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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Betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted July 10, 2006 03:48 AM |
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Edited by Betruger at 03:51, 10 Jul 2006.
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Oh, and I have to throw in a comment on the Inferno issue. First of all, I think Inferno is fairly ballanced, even though I must admit I did not use the War Machines when I played with them.
Then do use them. Play as Deleb for once and then talk about it.
It IS overpowered.
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However, I think it's important to remember that Instant Gating will only happen at level 30+ (and therefore isn't important in the overall power ballance consideration)
True. In most games you won't even get above lvl 20.
People who think it's otherwise obviously have no idea of a multiplayer game whatsoever but that doesn't stop them from expressing their opinion on balance :/
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the Ballista will be destroyed taken only 250 points of dammage - not too impressive to rely on
Baah. Try to kill such balista in week 2 without huge casualties. It's perfect for early rushes.
But that's not the point.
The point is balista lets you conquer all neutrals without any troops of your own. And quick. By the end of week 1 you get level 10 hero and most important mines flagged.
Early resources + early experience = better endgame hero with more creatures and better spells.
Using Deleb you get level 20 before your opponent is level 10. (That's in heroic difficulty, in lower diffs you level up slower, because of less creatures to kill).
I asure you that when such heroes meet, you don't need to rely on your ballista any more.
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 05:57 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
-Aging was not spectacular. WHEN IT WORKED, it was the most powerful unit ability in the game, but it could also easily be dispeled or cured, and it was unlikely that your Ghost Dragons would survive retalliation from that other lv 7 stack. Yes, while it is great in theory to half the HP of that stack of Behemoths, it's too bad that you're going to eat full damage, plus some from defense reduction. Ghost Dragons were still poor.
Aging would kill the game. Consider this scenario:
-You get a horde of skellies. I guess thats usual.
-You take some thougher creature of choice vamp/lich/wight
-You take some spectre dragons(3/week) with aging and split them into 5 groups.
You attack 1 creature with all the spectres. You have 67% chance to at least halve their hps. Thats much isnt it? Eating full damage? High sp + animate dead solves this problem(?). With aging there is no single creature that can match the spectre dragon. Ow and necros specialize in school of summoning which holds phantom forces which can make this tactic even more effective.
Remember that there was only a 20% chance to age units. You still dismissed that it was easily dispelled.
And not much has changed since HIII. We're still using Skellies, Vampires, and Liches. NO, wraiths are not Dread Knights, but they're not that bad. They are still better than Spectrical Dragons.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 08:04 AM |
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Quote:
Remember that there was only a 20% chance to age units. You still dismissed that it was easily dispelled.
And not much has changed since HIII. We're still using Skellies, Vampires, and Liches. NO, wraiths are not Dread Knights, but they're not that bad. They are still better than Spectrical Dragons.
Count the probabilities. Its really high if you split units, try it if you wish. Well you use those units thats your business..
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 08:09 AM |
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you do have an excellent knowledge of the game
Well I should thank that for AOH developers. Im posting based on their netstats. I erased the game after a week in May cause I found it too addictive. 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2006 09:52 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Remember that there was only a 20% chance to age units. You still dismissed that it was easily dispelled.
And not much has changed since HIII. We're still using Skellies, Vampires, and Liches. NO, wraiths are not Dread Knights, but they're not that bad. They are still better than Spectrical Dragons.
Count the probabilities. Its really high if you split units, try it if you wish. Well you use those units thats your business..
But also remember, that this splitting-stack option only works so and so, because for every small stack you have to invoke this special ability, you will have to leave out a large stack capable of doing damage. Many have talked about the power of Wraiths if you bring in 7 stacks of 1, and they will each kill 1 creature, adding up for possibly 7 level 7 creatures, which is quite correct. However, in the instance where you're facing 20 level 7 creatures, or worse, an enemy unit of 7 level 7 creauteres + 15 level 6 creatures + 30 level 5 creatures + etc. etc. that's just not going to help you a lot, that you can take out those 7 level 7 creatures with stacks of 1 Wraith - because you still will lose the overall battle.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 11:17 AM |
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aren't they too large to put 7 stacks on battlefield btw? -.-
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 12:25 PM |
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But also remember, that this splitting-stack option only works so and so, because for every small stack you have to invoke this special ability, you will have to leave out a large stack capable of doing damage. Many have talked about the power of Wraiths if you bring in 7 stacks of 1, and they will each kill 1 creature, adding up for possibly 7 level 7 creatures, which is quite correct. However, in the instance where you're facing 20 level 7 creatures, or worse, an enemy unit of 7 level 7 creauteres + 15 level 6 creatures + 30 level 5 creatures + etc. etc. that's just not going to help you a lot, that you can take out those 7 level 7 creatures with stacks of 1 Wraith - because you still will lose the overall battle.
I think wraith`s harm touch is only good against high(L6-7) units. For low level hordes its totally useless. On the other hand Aging or deadly strike is more usefull. Lets say you have 5 wraith stacks. You attack a unit for 2 turns. Lets assume that none of your wraithstack dies. They kill 10 from that unit. Thats sure. With 20% aging chance/unit you have 67% chance to hit your target every turn. This translates to a surehit every 2nd turn on an avrage(some more but this is enough). So if the nme has a larger stack than 20 creatures you pose a greater threat with this kind of attack. These halving attacks are powerfull becouse if your nme has small ammounts of units than he is weak or he has high levellers which can be taken out by wraight-split-touch. If he has hordes this halving attack can quickly reduce them to small stacks. As for leaving out large stacks capable of doing some nice damage: Count how many bone dragons, titans, etc. you need to kill 15 black dragons or 2-3-4k skeletons with 2 attack.
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 10, 2006 12:42 PM |
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actually no they are not too large, need to have expert tactics with the extra range and yes you can fit them all, but why waste the skill
____________
Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 05:31 PM |
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Give aging to spectres or just change them to death knights and nerf the necromancer ability and youll get a whole new nation.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2006 07:24 PM |
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Aging to Spectres would be too powerfull. What I'd like to see was something like:
- Skeletons without ranged ability, but have 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks.
- Zombies with ranged ability (but still low initiative)
- Spectres receive 50 % damage reduction from non-magical attacks + regeneration + mana drain.
- Vampires remain.
- Liches remain.
- Wraiths gain Cursing Attack, Death Strike (kill 10% x Wraith Numbers) and float.
- Bone Dragons have 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks.
- Spectral Dragons receive 50 % damage reduction from non-magical attacks + aging ability.
None-magical attacks are melee or ranged attacks not affected by a spell or spell-like effect. Thus, a unit with Divine Strength will ignore the damage reduction, all damaging spells do full damage, a mage's ranged attack will do full damage, and the Cold Steel and Fiery Wrath abilitis will also negate this ability. Spells like Righteous Might or Haste will not affect this ability, however, and neither will abilities like Teleport Assault and Archery.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 07:34 PM |
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shooting zombies? nooo... : ( I can't imagine them with bows, would be ridiculous ;]
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 07:50 PM |
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Quote:
Aging to Spectres would be too powerfull. What I'd like to see was something like:
- Skeletons without ranged ability, but have 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks.
- Zombies with ranged ability (but still low initiative)
- Wraiths gain Cursing Attack, Death Strike (kill 10% x Wraith Numbers) and float.
- Bone Dragons have 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks.
- Spectral Dragons receive 50 % damage reduction from non-magical attacks + aging ability.
Bringing back ranged only damage reduction is a good idea.
I wouldnt like to see zombies throwing anything. They are just dumb tanks.
10%*wraith number kill? 10 wraiths can slay any stack?
Even if we take away necromancy alltogether both deadly strike and aging in 1 army is just too strong.
These ideas are good but it would make necros too strong. Changing the necros in a way of giving them various life stealing attacks and damage reduction for the cost of their hps and damage is a great idea.
They have harm touch already. Here are some changes which would make them a bit more intresting:
-Giving them the aging curse, death strike by changing the spectre dragon to death knight.
-Spectre could be somekind of healers with the ability of soul stealing attack. Giving them energy after each kill which can be used to give back the power(revive) a unit stack.
-Lowering the hps of zombies but giving them damage reduction(easier to heal back).
-Nerfing the necromancy skill modifiers.
-There you go you have a team creatures which you have to kill multiple times to win.
Ow yea almost forgot it.. Give them "mass raise dead" spell. 
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted July 10, 2006 07:55 PM |
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Edited by Thanatos at 19:58, 10 Jul 2006.
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Aging to Spectres would be too powerfull. What I'd like to see was something like:
- Skeletons without ranged ability, but have 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks.
- Zombies with ranged ability (but still low initiative)
- Spectres receive 50 % damage reduction from non-magical attacks + regeneration + mana drain.
- Vampires remain.
- Liches remain.
- Wraiths gain Cursing Attack, Death Strike (kill 10% x Wraith Numbers) and float.
- Bone Dragons have 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks.
- Spectral Dragons receive 50 % damage reduction from non-magical attacks + aging ability.
None-magical attacks are melee or ranged attacks not affected by a spell or spell-like effect. Thus, a unit with Divine Strength will ignore the damage reduction, all damaging spells do full damage, a mage's ranged attack will do full damage, and the Cold Steel and Fiery Wrath abilitis will also negate this ability. Spells like Righteous Might or Haste will not affect this ability, however, and neither will abilities like Teleport Assault and Archery.
Nice list
However, I think that Wraiths with Cursing Attack and Death Strike is a bit too much, just Death Strike is more than enough I think. Aging on Spectral Dragon might also be a bit too much unless aging is nerfed.
Also, I agree with Doomforge, shooting Zombies are just silly, I'd just let them remain as Necro's useless unit and give ranged to ghosts/ spectres.
edit: @Shassz: 10%*Wraith numbers means that 10 Wraiths can kill 10%*10=1 creature with Deadly Strike.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 10, 2006 09:16 PM |
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Well guyz, come on, use your imagination. Make them throw something, or some other solution, nobody said they had to have bows (and seriously, prior to Heroes 5, how many wouldn't have laughed at the notion of skeletons equiped with bows?). Anyway, having Zombies with ranged attack is no favorite of mine, but it would make sense gamewise: Necropolis needs another ranged attacker besides the Lich, and the Zombie is slow and does poor damage, but fairly numerous and tough, which will make a nice ballance to the Lich which has fair speed (initiative), excellent stacks and great damage - but is fragile.
And Shassz, you who are so mathematically talented should understand what I meen by 10% x Wraith numbers on Death Strike: I meen for every 10 Wraiths, they will kill 1 creature (besides normal damage) - just like good ol' Mighty Gorgons. Thus, 20 Wraiths will kill 2 creatures, 50 will kill 5 (on average of course, you can yourself calculate the likelyhood of 50 Wraiths killing 6 creatures when each Wraith has 10 % probability). And combining the Death Touch and Cursing Attack might be too powerfull. It was just a thought, not really a very final solution.
About the aging, I see several possible solutions. Either, one could retain the old model with small likelyhood but great effect (-50 % hitpoints). A more ballanced idea might to increase likelyhood - say, 100% - 10% x Target Level - and then only remove -10 % Hit Points - and then make this effect stack, so that Dragons on subsequent attacks could remove more and more of target hitpoints! I favor the latter idea ... but of course, testing would be requered to ensure ballance.
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 12:37 AM |
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Yes, what's wrong with having more than 2-3 specials per creture? We're used to few repetitive specials.. but that doesn't make it better or right.
Theres nothing wrong with having a lot of specials on a creature (in fact if you look at the HV creatures some of them have 4 or 5 specials)but putting all those specials that you mentioned on a creature as powerful as a wraith would just be ridiculous.
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Thats bs.. See aging ability in H3.
IMO aging was still crap compared to other lvl7 special abilities. Titans with ranged attack, Archangels could ressurect, ancient beths reduce defense 80%, black dragons immune to ALL spells. Those were the types of specials that always played a significant role in a battle. If aging had a 50% chance or so, then it would be a notable contender.
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shooting zombies? nooo... : ( I can't imagine them with bows, would be ridiculous ;]
Don't give them bows....but imagine a zombie reaching into its own bowels and throwing a fistfull of rotten guts at its opponent. That could be cool
In general I think one of the main ideas that is missing from this whole necro too weak/too powerful discussion is that necros success is largely based on circumstance. Those who think that necro should be able to contend with other factions by means of its units alone are forgetting that when you add all the other perks like NECROMANCY, animate dead (at lvl 2), immunity of undead to mind spells, and capability of necro to convert any tier unit to undead that necro would be GODs. Immensely overpowered. However, you then have to take into consideration that for necro to be successful as it is, that certain conditions HAVE TO exist, like the hero has to aquire animate dead and has to be successful in ammassing a huge skeleton army to compete with other factions. And also the way a necro hero is developed has more impact on the power of a necro army than for other factions. So realy necro can be amazingly strong or pathetically weak depending on the skill of the user. Necro is just a more dynamic tool with more complex components that must work together but in the hands of a comfortable user that is skilled at optimizing all the resources that the necro faction has available for increased destruction it becomes a powerful killing machine. True, you can't just rely on the basic strength of the units themselves like you more or less can with other factions but thats what makes it interresting and challenging
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 07:04 AM |
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And Shassz, you who are so mathematically talented should understand what I meen by 10% x Wraith numbers on Death Strike: I meen for every 10 Wraiths, they will kill 1 creature (besides normal damage)
You said this "Wraiths gain Cursing Attack, Death Strike (kill 10% x Wraith Numbers)..". I dont see what this has to do with mathematics. Its actually language comprehension, and I dont see why my interpretation of the text is incorrect. I think youve been the 1 who didnt compose it squarely..
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