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| Thread: Necropolis power deficiency ! |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... 20 23 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 12:49 AM |
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kreszantas's post is on point. Although it is "boring" (as someone else has stated) to play Necro one-dimensionally (focus on Necromancy and huge stacks of skeletons), it has always been the way to play Necro, just like it is your ultimate goal to get lots of Master Hunters, Blood Furies, Titans, etc with other factions.
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Plemenit, much as I hate to say it, I don't think you are very ballanced, or should I say reflected, in your views. First of all, saying that some of us "wants to have perfect ballance with all creatures doing 1-1 in damage" is plain stupid (and I don't know whether I was a target or not). Second of all, you have to retain some sort of ballance - after all, you yourself bring up the problem with the Necros being the weakest (according to Nival).
Now, I think there is a general problem/miscomprehension in this thread, that makes a lot of the people here misunderstand each others and cause disagreements. I think it's important to consider.
- Based only on weekly growth, Necros are pretty badly off. They have several below average units (Zombies, Ghosts, Wraiths?, Spectral Dragons), and their weekly growth rate does not do to much to help out on this. This was the cause for the original discussion on "Necropolis power defficiency".
- Based on overall growth - weekly growth + Necromancy - Necromancers are far from badly off - actually, there might be a severe Necromancer overpowering problem.
Ok, now we're back to posting with some sense. I do agree that pound-for-pound, Necro is the weakest. That's obvious. What everyone seems to be FORGETTING is that Necro is NOT DESIGNED TO GO HEAD TO HEAD AGAINST OTHER FACTIONS.
-Have we forgotten about the shrine of the netherworld, which converts ALL units to their respective levels? That plus some local neutral creature generators (or even better, a captured castle), will boost your numbers.
-Animate Dead. Indeed, how soon have we forget that this is most likely the second most imba spell in the game (phantom forces). It is a lv 2 spell, and you will almost always get it before you even leave proximity of your castle. Use this to preserve numbers.
We forget that unlike all other factions that require resurrect (lv 5 spell), Necro can re-raise its units in the early game when you have to fight ranged neutrals for that oh-so-important mine or two.
The "every unit needs to do 1-1 damage" is just as foolish as "Spectres need 3-5 passive abilities, and so do other units." I have already made some suggestions:
Making Liches a smaller unit size would work wonders.
Vampires returning 100% damage would make them a lot better, but I don't see anything really wrong with them.
Nobody has said why Wraiths were so terrible. I mean, they are more powerful than your Dragons, yet people complain that they are weak. Oxymoron, I guess.
Zombies have the toughness of a lv 3 unit, so use them accordingly. They are not for offense. Use them as shock troops.
Spectres have the toughness of a level 1 unit so treat them as such. HIII wraiths, anyone? Yeah, I thought so. Not much has changed, although it would be nice to absorb mana every turn and self-regenerate. They're still better than Footmen/Squires.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 09, 2006 01:03 AM |
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Exactly ... the Necromancers are quite unlike the other towns, because they rely on such different powerfactors (their level 1 unit!).
That makes for a very delicate issue of ballancing it to the other towns. Personally, I think they didn't manage too good on that point - I suppose that also depends on difficulty level. I was run down by 2K skeles playing the single scenario at Hard difficulty when I had like 350 Gremlins and 75 Mages. I had played more or less optimally in that game, I think, and clearly, there was nothing I could do against those Skeleton Archers. Of course, I might have been unlucky, and I might have been played badly, but this and my own experiences from playing Necro simply tells me the Skeletons are too powerfull.
Of course, what I'd like to do is make Skeletons less important and thus make Necromancers more like the other factions. That's a pitty, because I like the variation - but I also like all factions to have a fair chance, and I fear that now, the Necros will run over everyone.
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 09, 2006 02:01 AM |
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ZeroXcuses brings up another aspect relation to other massings by other factions
master hunters = grand elves in H3
blood furies = upgraded harpies in H3
titan = same in H3 not much change there
black drags again the same
angels & archangels have been reduced but same philo as H3
Any hero with mass fights with mass creatures, unless you really know "ALL" aspsects of your given faction... thus you will be reduced to dust, quickly and without remorse.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 08:05 AM |
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-They have NEVER had a great lv 7 creature
Thats bs.. See aging ability in H3.
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 09, 2006 08:10 AM |
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I agree with Shassz the aging ability was sometimes abit too much it depended on the defense of the opposing stack that you attacked.
That in itself is something that they considered in H5 to somewhat balance the true design of a necro town... build skels and kill opponents with sheer numbers end of statement.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 08:11 AM |
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I was one of the top necro players in H3 and was even asked for advise on how H4 was to be developed...
Well you could have given them some better advices...
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 09, 2006 08:12 AM |
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I said before I will not give up all the secrets and why should I?
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 08:32 AM |
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I dont want a flame I just say that you mentioned you gave them some advice how to develop the next part and then in the same post you say it was totally unbalanced. So I guess we shall blame you for the unbalance of H4. 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 09:46 AM |
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You want a powerful necro lvl 7 creature? Try wog. Spectrals have more A and D, they are etheral (in other words, they have 400 hp ;x), and the stack experiance system makes them monstrous giving them improved chance for aging (up to 100%!) and total spell immunity (excluding beneficial spells). Now that's a powerful toy ^_^
in h5, it's quite obvious that poor lvl 7 is meant to balance out those hordes of skellies. And spells like deflect missle + skills like evasion are meant to serve a good protection against s.archers. quite worthwile. If you're a warlock, try master of storms and slow (shadow mats one), those 2k skellies will never move, waiting to be annihilated. There are many ways of dealing with them, so IMO it's not _that_ imbalanced as it seems.
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Jorthax
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 09, 2006 10:04 AM |
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Think of this as the ghastly number collecting faction that raises troops out of nowhere and just keep throwing them at you.
Think of the Cult of Doom, or other dark scorcerers in the Conan stories. That's the kind of necromancy at play here. The Necroscope version of zombies and skeletons. Harry Keogh is a Hero of sorts.
You'd have to read those kinds of fantasy to understand the philosophies involved in the production of troops and technological abilities.
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phoenixzs
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 10:51 AM |
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I cant agree that the skeleton collection was the only tactic in necros so far.In H3 the power distrubution was something different from other castles.The last level and the 2nd 3rd level were underpowered while the rest top stack were overpowered.When I played the skeletons werent the main focus of the army but were just nice additions.Dread Knights simply overtook the job of bone dragons with high attack defense and double strike.The thing that throw the necro off the balance was too good wampires.They didnt die simply.But the idea was not about depending on skeletons but depending on 4th+5th+6th level combination rather than 7th level.If you remember the 7th levels were far more powerfull in those days(which I like in H5 that they are more even).I liked necro back than and in H2 but in H4 only wampire game was boring.
Also it doesnt mean that it has been that way in the past so it must go that way.Changes are possible.Also I do think the necro should be able to go to head to head with other factions with combined hero and spells and higher growth.The necromancy is not a blessing from the gods other factions also have racial abilities which help them also.It should be an extra for player like gating.
One tactic game is not a strategy game.A skeleton collecting race shouldnt be the way to go for the necro.Just wining with hordes of skeletons is not strategy nor it is enjoyable.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 11:03 AM |
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Ill cut you in a half :)
I just figured out a nice strategy for those who can access a death knight dwelling. With access to summoning magic, phantom forces, and animate dead its even better. Death knights have the special of Deadly strike which most ppl think is overpowered. It really is. If you split them into a lot of groups they are simply superior to anything. Consider that the probability function of at least(!!!) halving the nme stack is this: P(n) = 1 - 0.75^n, where n is the number of groups. This is kind of extreme. With 7 groups it translates to 86.6% to halve the nme stack. Think of Jhora combined with this phantom forces and animate dead. There is really nothing that can match that combo. Although if you want to carry some backup the chance to at least halving with 5 groups is 76.2% which is brutal too.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 11:27 AM |
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On a second thought its not that good since you cant get enough of these creatures to survive/clone out/animate out some nice concentrated attack on them, but aging would surely work well on spectre dragons with this strategy.
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Randeemuss
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 09, 2006 12:02 PM |
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The thing about necro is that they are agreat machiene and cannot work properly unless all its components work hard. Necro has got( in my opinion) the best unique race skill necromancy. Every skill is very usefull...especially the banshee howl. casting it at the begining of the battle ensures that enemy units will sometimes miss turns because of low ini or becoause of low morale. Furthermore if u lvl ure necro so that it gets the Howl of Terror ure seriosly gonna scrae the s out of them. Have you ever seen 3k of skelly archer shooting? Not pretty. Razez everything. Liches are also mighty powerfull. Specters..tankers. Vampire lord..harassers. Their drain life is awsome, not as good in H3 but it still makes Vamp mighty. No retal lets you atack any enemy without beeing afraid it will kick back. mechs have an advantage at this point though... Zombie...i havent found any usage for the yet...but they are pretty resistant for tier 2. Specters are all about luck, wich i personally dont like, but sometimes you must through ure destiny in the haands of faith... Necro is powerful but only in the long run, it needs a lot of time to achieve its power, thats why its weak in duel mode.
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 12:31 PM |
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Increasing the creature growth would make Necro totally unbalanced... remember that Raise Dead permanently raises Undead units, and combined with the Necro's huge spellpower you simply take far less losses than any other faction which means a far bigger army in the endgame.
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G3
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 09, 2006 01:09 PM |
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I'd like an option to raise Zombies instead of Skeleton Archers 
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 09, 2006 04:07 PM |
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shassz do you not know how to read or do you just put your own words in places you need to fill out what you want it to say?
I gave you a complement in agreeing with you about the aging process, then you reply like that?
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I dont want a flame I just say that you mentioned you gave them some advice how to develop the next part and then in the same post you say it was totally unbalanced. So I guess we shall blame you for the unbalance of H4.
Now re-read my earlier post that I did not agree with what they did with H4, I never even played one game when its released. I was a vocal protestor and had to go through special contractual agreements where I am NOT allowed to say anything in detail about it.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 04:44 PM |
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Increasing the creature growth would make Necro totally unbalanced... remember that Raise Dead permanently raises Undead units, and combined with the Necro's huge spellpower you simply take far less losses than any other faction which means a far bigger army in the endgame.
With deleb I rush straight to nightmares and in the beginning of second week(!), having 6 horses, tent skill and ballista skill, I can kill 20+ inquisitors (!)
with NO LOSES (!!!). Can you do it with 100+ Skellie archers and a tent? no. can you do it with animate dead? NO. I think no other faction can do it. And nobody whines about inferno. Weird. Despite their obvious early, mid AND endgame superiority @_o
Oh, maybe because ppl don't know how to play them yet. Well, test it - you will be amazed by the infernal power. Take exp from chests, get expert warmachines, get ballista&tent skills ASAP and you can kill everything on the map from levels 1-5 not named druids, elder druids and archmages. (well, unicorns can be a threat too  )
That's why a slight buff to necro wouldn't hurt, since they are not the _BEST_ earlygame castle after all.
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 05:41 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Increasing the creature growth would make Necro totally unbalanced... remember that Raise Dead permanently raises Undead units, and combined with the Necro's huge spellpower you simply take far less losses than any other faction which means a far bigger army in the endgame.
With deleb I rush straight to nightmares and in the beginning of second week(!), having 6 horses, tent skill and ballista skill, I can kill 20+ inquisitors (!)
with NO LOSES (!!!). Can you do it with 100+ Skellie archers and a tent? no. can you do it with animate dead? NO. I think no other faction can do it. And nobody whines about inferno. Weird. Despite their obvious early, mid AND endgame superiority @_o
Oh, maybe because ppl don't know how to play them yet. Well, test it - you will be amazed by the infernal power. Take exp from chests, get expert warmachines, get ballista&tent skills ASAP and you can kill everything on the map from levels 1-5 not named druids, elder druids and archmages. (well, unicorns can be a threat too )
That's why a slight buff to necro wouldn't hurt, since they are not the _BEST_ earlygame castle after all.
Good point, but this is the Necro Power Peficiency thread. Perhaps you should begin an Inferno power SUPERIORITY topic? IMO, Inferno is the best faction in the game because almost every hero can get instant gating, and I myself have enjoyed experimenting with splitting Pit Lords in multiple stacks, gating, and phantom forces. There's not a lv 7 out there that can withstand that many vorp. swords.  Nightmares wreak havoc on morale by just standing there, and most of your units will get a free pass until your Succubi Mistresses are dealt with.
But alas, this is about Necros
-Someone mentioned using buffs like deflect missile to improve unit performace. Unlikely. That's a light magic spell, and Necros are under the Nature/Dark magic trees. Necros are about CURSES not buffs, although a human player is more likely to dispel a curse on its units than dispel a buff on yours.
-Aging was not spectacular. WHEN IT WORKED, it was the most powerful unit ability in the game, but it could also easily be dispeled or cured, and it was unlikely that your Ghost Dragons would survive retalliation from that other lv 7 stack. Yes, while it is great in theory to half the HP of that stack of Behemoths, it's too bad that you're going to eat full damage, plus some from defense reduction. Ghost Dragons were still poor.
I gtg to church now...I'll be back on an edit to add more. But for now, I'll say that yes, there were other useful units in HIII, but skellies were not as much of a threat as they are now.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 09, 2006 06:33 PM |
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Edited by shassz at 18:50, 09 Jul 2006.
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shassz do you not know how to read or do you just put your own words in places you need to fill out what you want it to say?
I gave you a complement in agreeing with you about the aging process, then you reply like that?
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I dont want a flame I just say that you mentioned you gave them some advice how to develop the next part and then in the same post you say it was totally unbalanced. So I guess we shall blame you for the unbalance of H4.
Now re-read my earlier post that I did not agree with what they did with H4, I never even played one game when its released. I was a vocal protestor and had to go through special contractual agreements where I am NOT allowed to say anything in detail about it.
I replied that on this:
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I said before I will not give up all the secrets and why should I?
It just tried to be a joke. Youre free not to like it.
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