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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 07:53 AM |
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Quote:
IMO aging was still crap compared to other lvl7 special abilities. Titans with ranged attack, Archangels could ressurect, ancient beths reduce defense 80%, black dragons immune to ALL spells. Those were the types of specials that always played a significant role in a battle. If aging had a 50% chance or so, then it would be a notable contender.
50%.. 20-25% is a lot. I dont think that aging was crappy compared to those abilities. Actually it has enormous potential. While angels resurrect is cool but only if they have a lot of creatures. Ancient behemots gives you defense reduction, so what you make a triple damage attack? Not to mention hypnotize and berzerk. With aging you have a high chance to take away any(!!) number of hps even with low stack numbers, so I guess its no way inferior to other specials. Blacks are immune to anything although I liked them but they cannot be resurrected or blessed either.
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 08:43 AM |
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A major change to most necro units should be made by giving them damage reduction(dmgr) instead of hps since they are rather senseless than tough.
Changing the hp base to dmgr(no magic dmg reduction) would have the following effects:
-They act the same way against normal damage if we change it correctly. So if a creature without dmgr with 16HP and another with 4HP 75% dmgr simply acts the same way against the damage type which they have reduction against.
-Lower hp means that they can be healed or revived back more effectively.
-A disadvantage is that HP can be interpreted in a way that the above mentioned 4HP creature has 75% dmgr against anything, so attack forms which cause dmg other type than the 1 it has reduction against kill the creature more effectively.
Changing necros in a way like that they get meele/ranged dmgr for their hps but no magic dmgr make them extremely vulnerable to warlocks and maybe some wizards. This problem could be solved by changing necromancy skill from "skeleraiser" skill into a skill which empowers animate dead spell and maybe healing tents in a similar way that elemental chains and empowered spells change the power of destructive spells. This would change necros from a "horder" nation into an to a nation which has some nice puppets which can be animated by the great puppetmaster any time he wishes. 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 11, 2006 09:32 AM |
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Quote:
Don't give them bows ... but imagine a zombie reaching into its own bowels and throwing a fistfull of rotten guts at its opponent. That could be cool 
Yeah, that's just one idea at how it might work. And that would also fit nicely with the poisoning-thing they have going.
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You said this "Wraiths gain Cursing Attack, Death Strike (kill 10% x Wraith Numbers)..". I dont see what this has to do with mathematics. Its actually language comprehension, and I dont see why my interpretation of the text is incorrect. I think youve been the 1 who didnt compose it squarely ...
Well, I did not intend it to be mathematically correct as such, I thought anyone who had played Heroes 3 and knew the Mighty Gorgon Death Stare would figure it out. Anyway, I still hold my point that 10% x Wraith Numbers are pretty unambigeous: For 47 Wraiths, that means they kill 10% x 47 = 0.1 x 47 = 4.7 creatures or on average 5 creatures. But lets rest the case ...
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 09:56 AM |
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Edited by shassz at 10:00, 11 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
Well, I did not intend it to be mathematically correct as such, I thought anyone who had played Heroes 3 and knew the Mighty Gorgon Death Stare would figure it out. Anyway, I still hold my point that 10% x Wraith Numbers are pretty unambigeous: For 47 Wraiths, that means they kill 10% x 47 = 0.1 x 47 = 4.7 creatures or on average 5 creatures. But lets rest the case ...
Yea its a correct ability, but for me it wasnt obvoius that it would work the same way as death stare or what, though it should have been obvious that you dont propose such a highly overpowered ability..
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chpr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 10:43 AM |
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necro
hey guys, i`m back I see some of u have tried Kaspar and have decent results, this pleases me a lot I see also that Doomforge has taken over my ideas and has deffended them decentyly, this is also cool. However there are some things that i don't quite agree with..
1. Vladimir focusing according to you on enlightment, summoning magic and a hell more crap, so at last he won't be anything like a necromancer. Maybe take light magic too, huh?
2. Haste on zombies? holy cow, light magic?
3. stop with those phoenixe-based strats plz
4. shaesz or sth like that, u are writing total crap
5. this is heroes 5 discussion, so why discuss h3? (h3 is one of the most imba games ever so dont try to find balance)
6. OK!OK!OK! we got it! bone dragons are crap! But...with other castles.. some faerie will give u 20k gold to build your 7 lvl unit? find a pile of gold under your pillow? then upgrade other units with?
We necromancers CHOOSE not to build 7 lvl units, other factions just most likely wont have the possibility to do it PPPP
7. wraits are tough, very tough, with kasper - tougher, u just dont need to use their spec ability in battle, just rape whoever dares to attack your line.
8. U forget the dark magic + sorcery combo. Frenzy and puppet master will throw the enemy lines into disarray. Just sit on your dead units' butts, shoot and count wisely the turns.. frenzy or puppet the right units and the enemy's army will be a mess.
9. stop imagining giant armies, h5 is economically the most difficult homm game so far. We dont have the 3 utopias for evry wood mine like h3! With most factions you wont be able to buy even HALF of your pops if u try to tech relatively fast.
10. i can kill 20 inquisitors with 100+ skellis and the ~10 vamp lords (if we start with castle) on week 2 with no losses. (about that guy who said necro cant do it)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 11, 2006 10:59 AM |
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Peace, shassz, I might not have formulated myself entirely clear in the first case, so lets rest it. I think we got the point through on second try.
And chpr, please stop writing that others write crap and sound like you invent the holy grail with every sentence you write, when half of what you say is no better than what's already been said. Personally, I'd see no problem what-so-ever at emplying Light Magic as a necromancer, it's one of if not THE best magic schools, and even though resurrection will do you little good as a Necromancer, Haste, Divine Strength, Endurance and Righteous Might will help you just as much as they help everybody else. And this endless talk about using this or that specific hero, a faction sho0uld not base it's entire ballance on using ONE specific hero - the hero specials should be something that adds a little something extra, not what defines the game! And for your information, I have succesfully employed my level 7 units in every game I've played so far, so it's not true by far what you imply that Necropolis is better off because they have a weak top unit. ~End of b*tching~
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Plemenit
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 11, 2006 11:54 AM |
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Quote:
What a lot of these fanboys are asking for would throw the game off-balance even further than it already is. So what if Necro is weak? In every game, there is bound to be a "bottom tier" faction, and HOMM is no different.
This is so silly.. "So what if Necro is weak"!? "That's tradition"... haha
Therefore, for the sake of this uninventive tradition, we cannot change that? 
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"Boring?" The only unit that does not have a special ability of is the Skelies. This is how it has always been.
Haha.. then you count "undead" as some super-duper special ability?  Ah, no.. you were being selective becouse skeletons are also "undead".
I'll update your list- zombies, wights & bone dragons, just like skeletons, don't have any abilities. They're practically skeletons with higher stats (that's their personality..). Some other towns have also the same problem with lack of enough new & interesting special creature abilities, thus it's not a Necro-only problem.
If only the upgrade has just one ability, which is also active, like in the case of wights/wraiths- that's not enough! They should have at least two additional passive abilities.
HoMM saga should learn from other games.
Lets see what Age of Wonders version of Wraiths (Dread Reapers) have. It's the highest level Necro unit- yes, bone dragons are weaker; which is an excellent thing becouse I'm tired of the silly dragon supremacy in HoMM.
Dread Reaper special abilities: Walking, Floating, Strike, Undead, Death Strike, Magic Strike, Cause Fear, Life Stealing, Energy Drain, Physical Protection, Path of Decay, True Seeing, Shadow Walker, Willpower, Pass Wall, Unholy Champion.
Now, that's called imagination! Which is something many HoMM fans & developers don't understand.. And yes, ALL these abilities can be balanced- together!
The majority here is just recycling old abilities from Dread Knights and Gorgons and wants to give them to Wights/Wraiths.
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Nothing but a bunch of fanboys who want Necro to return to their H4 glory, which only happened because vampires could be raised from Necromancary. Notice how if the units change from skellies, the game is INSTANTLY imba in Necro favor (Shadows of Death, H4).
That's the point you don't understand. This is not only about making Necro a somehow stronger faction. I want them to be as strong as any other faction. It's about giving Necro creatures some flavour through new special (passive) abilities. Giving them something specific that will distinguish each creature from other creatures and make them fun and unique to play with. I wrote suggestions about additional creature abilities for some other factions as well (in the official UBI forum) but since this is a Necro topic I'm bounded to discuss about them only.
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First of all, saying that some of us "wants to have perfect ballance with all creatures doing 1-1 in damage" is plain stupid (and I don't know whether I was a target or not).
It's called sarcasm and you were not the target.
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Everyone discounts Dipolmacy in there overall tactics.
And to get diplomacy you must get leadership which is completely useless with Necro creatures! This is outrageous! I hope they replace it with something else asap.
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Theres nothing wrong with having a lot of specials on a creature (in fact if you look at the HV creatures some of them have 4 or 5 specials)but putting all those specials that you mentioned on a creature as powerful as a wraith would just be ridiculous.
Huh, you were all scared away by the quantity.. yet you didn't analyse the content.
Have you ever heard about; jousting (creature gets a 10% bonus to damage it inflicts during attack for each tile it covered on the game field before the attack), double shot (creature fires two full shots at the enemy instead of just one), rider charge (for each game field tile covered by this creature during attack, the target's Defence is reduced by 20% (all the way down to zero)) etc. ?
Now, sincerely, can you compare these abilities to something like "doom bringer", "dreadful presence"? These two abilities are just little babies in effectiveness compared to those listed above. Thus, even 4 of them would not make them overpowered since we already have some much more powerful creature abilities in the game. Think a little bit, compare and analyse before screaming "IMBA, OVERPOWERED" just like a "Dota" player would do whenever a new hero comes out. Anyway, ALL can be balanced and I think we all agree that having more creature special abilities would make the game much more interesting and beautiful.
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 04:26 PM |
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You mean an ALLSTARS player because DOTA has always been balanced.
I am starting to detect hypocrisy among the heroes community. HIV was "booed" because there was so much innovation, and [most] players wanted a more HIII feel to it. We recieved that (minus any AI whatsoever) and now, everyone is crying nostalgia again, saying to bring back old creature abilities and features in general. People want their cake AND their icecream.
Necro is not the only castle in the game where the un-upgraded versions of the creatures do not have any (supder-D-duper)abilities. This is why I say that these suggestions are fanboyism. Why are you even trying to make an argument for basic creatures? What end-game battle have you ever participated in when the person with few upgrades won? Again, I say that every creature except for skeletons have a special ability.
Bone Dragons can fly, which says a lot. Can you imagine if they didn't? Necro players take this for granted, especially because in the beta, Wraiths could fly. They changed it for balance.
Once agian, this is the Necromancer's power deficiency topic, and nobody has been very convincing as to how weak they are.
I'm using Zombies as shock troops, Vampire Lords as bread and butter, Liches as heavy artillery, Wraiths as death-dealers, and Skeletons as kill-anything-that moves just like I did in HIII, just Necro was to be played.
I have no idea what you guys are trying to turn necro into. I'm glad Nival did their own thing.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 11, 2006 04:55 PM |
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Quote:
Once agian, this is the Necromancer's power deficiency topic, and nobody has been very convincing as to how weak they are.
Nah ... it's no longer so much a discussion of Necropolis Power Defficiency. Rather, it's a question about Necropolis Power Superiority ... or at least Necropolis Power Imbalancing.
Case is, most people recognize the fact that Necropolis isn't underpowered. It's just that virtually all their power is in the level 1 unit and therefore all other units (more or less) are crap. And they are still overpowered. That's the problem for me.
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Plexus22
Known Hero
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posted July 11, 2006 08:12 PM |
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Quote:
Huh, you were all scared away by the quantity.. yet you didn't analyse the content.
Have you ever heard about; jousting (creature gets a 10% bonus to damage it inflicts during attack for each tile it covered on the game field before the attack), double shot (creature fires two full shots at the enemy instead of just one), rider charge (for each game field tile covered by this creature during attack, the target's Defence is reduced by 20% (all the way down to zero)) etc. ?
Now, sincerely, can you compare these abilities to something like "doom bringer", "dreadful presence"? These two abilities are just little babies in effectiveness compared to those listed above. Thus, even 4 of them would not make them overpowered since we already have some much more powerful creature abilities in the game. Think a little bit, compare and analyse before screaming "IMBA, OVERPOWERED" just like a "Dota" player would do whenever a new hero comes out. Anyway, ALL can be balanced and I think we all agree that having more creature special abilities would make the game much more interesting and beautiful.
Did you actually read my post? One of my points was that THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A LOT OF SPECIALS ON A CREATURE. Should I repeat that? The reason I posted what I did was specifically based on content and OBVIOUSLY im not talking about "doom bringer" and "dreadful Presence", im talking about "first strike" and "chaos strike". On a creature as powerful as a wraith, first strike essentially allows you to take a big bite out of the other stack before they even do damage maybe even completely destroy the other stack if it is a low level stack. A special like this would pretty much force the opponent to rethink their entire battle tactics when fighting against wraiths forcing them to use magic only or creatures with no retaliation special. Then on top of that if a wraith attacks a stack that stack might retaliate against its own faction. Thats essentially casting frenzy on any stack effected by wraiths. One of the BEST dark magic spell available will be cast on creatures effected by wraiths......a little too powerful you think!?
Quote:
50%.. 20-25% is a lot. I dont think that aging was crappy compared to those abilities. Actually it has enormous potential. While angels resurrect is cool but only if they have a lot of creatures. Ancient behemots gives you defense reduction, so what you make a triple damage attack? Not to mention hypnotize and berzerk. With aging you have a high chance to take away any(!!) number of hps even with low stack numbers, so I guess its no way inferior to other specials. Blacks are immune to anything although I liked them but they cannot be resurrected or blessed either.
Yes, aging definitely has potential, I just think it wasnt reliable enough wich is why I said if it was 50% it would be a contender. The other specials I mentioned are 100% reliable, always guaranteed. And if you think about what you said about behemoths, you will realize that it is more effective than aging because instead of reducing hit points in half you are doing triple damage plus it is guaranteed to happen, no 20% chance.
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 12, 2006 12:19 AM |
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Plemenit
Again you underestimate and entire portion of my post Diplomacy comes with Markel (Leadership) His Death Lord status and bonus is unlike any other. 50% of the neutral undead stacks join +2% per level. that means at 25th level he can get 100% joiners for next to no cost or even the possibly totally free. But this also works on living creatures as well as I indicated earlier in the thread, so again think about exploiting every possiblity.
I agree that leadership is a not as effective for necro, but think of the other skills that go along with it, the skill does not come up that often. In the long run you can go along and gain totally free troops explain to me why not use it.
You need to admit either you didnt think about it or read the entire post or as i have said before read what you want to make it into something you believe.
Necro has always been use the tactics that no one would expect to DEMORALIZE your opponent.
____________
Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 06:56 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Once agian, this is the Necromancer's power deficiency topic, and nobody has been very convincing as to how weak they are.
Nah ... it's no longer so much a discussion of Necropolis Power Defficiency. Rather, it's a question about Necropolis Power Superiority ... or at least Necropolis Power Imbalancing.
Case is, most people recognize the fact that Necropolis isn't underpowered. It's just that virtually all their power is in the level 1 unit and therefore all other units (more or less) are crap. And they are still overpowered. That's the problem for me.
Well that makes two people I agree with on this topic. 
Very well, then. Time for me to move on. I'll return when a patch reconfigures the Necro or Dark Magic.
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chpr
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 10:09 AM |
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you with the inquisitor icon, go pay 20k gold for a 7lvl units, then maybe upgrade them  and i will pawn you only with skellis/vamps, i`m not kidding at all  You snowin live in an imaginary world, where games continue 8 months, it is ALWAYS you the one who kills the utopia, and you will be always waited to get a full built army. GROW UP! On a tourney a necro will rape u in week 1-2, month 2, while you are paying all the gold u have in order to get your GODLIKE units (however you wont be able to buy any) Stop imagining, and sit down to playing. Man excuse me, but i would better cast frenzy/puppetmaster/slow on his units and just sit around with a good offense/deffense skill instead of the stupid light magic, than trying to configure which spell of dark+light+maybe summoning magic as u suggest (holy crap, such a hero was considered total crap in h3) and ending having not casted even 10% of the spells i should have. Cast haste on vamps, wights and so on, so they can wait twice more. Dont u get it, necro army cant just throw itself forward and engage the enemy, it will be raped for seconds! Our power is in playing dirty.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2006 10:27 AM |
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Pffft, at least try to take the time to read what I try to say to you. But it seems to me that either you simply do not understand what we discuss here, or you just choose to ignore it completely. Obviously you have your way of playing, and I have mine, which by the way has nothing to do with Dragon Utopias - I don't know why you keep dragging those into the discussion? - but if you read my previous posts, you would know that my concerns are simply with the fact that the Necromancers can beat all the other factions with the Skeletons alone. And yes, of course I go spend my 20K gold on bying level 7 units, I have to do that when I play the other factions, who for your information - surprise - will not be able to raise legions of Skeletions to save their ... - and I have no problem with that - in fact I like the strategic point of having not only 1 usefull unit to employ, but a range of 4 or 5 or even 6. And if you want to play your Necromancer by using Skeletons only, that's your choice - but there is a problem with the game, when you can trample everyone without them having a chance to oppose those Skeletons. Of course, you may not see that as a problem - but I do. When I'm not playing Necromancer - and when I am! Because I find that sort of gameplay rather dull.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 11:10 AM |
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well alcibiades, chpr is right in terms of mulitplayer gaming, of course.
Heroes V is much more costly than heroes III, upgrades cost insanely much, both in gold and resources, and the high level units price is ridiculous. I find it very hard to get i.e. arch devils before the end of second month, bcuz it costs like 50000 and 35 mercury all togheter (i dunno exactly), plus a lot of other resources. And if the mercury mine is guarded by i.e. druid elders, you can forget about taking it early... (with inferno ofc, academy can rely on steel golems and haste, maybe obsidians too if they are lightning immune, but I dunno if they are)
On the other hand, lvl4-5 units aren't that expensive and are quire reliable, while lvl 6 should be your hardest hitters. Lvl 7 is rather a luxury than a reliable force, since you obtain it soo late it probably won't change much
Plus, there are players who hate strategies that are "dependand on certain conditions", like a mine flagged early or resource finding luck (like me ). We prefer to rely on things that work every time andd give us possibility to succesfuly creep the map fast AND win fast if there is such a need (haven on gold-rich map, let's say )
about the topic: combine chpr and kreszantas' advices and I think you'll get a very good review of necro power.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 12, 2006 11:28 AM |
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Doomforge > There is no arguing that level 7 creatures are expensive - they might even be too expensive to acquire in multiplayer gaming, I wouldn't know, because I don't play multiplayer. But that's besides the point of this discussion, really - at least that's not what I argue. My point is that Necropolis has access to an incredible amount of level 1 units that no other faction will ever be able to match with all their combined other units, and when this unit is ranged and immune to mind-affecting spells, there is an obvious problem. And sure, if multiplayer mode will not make it possible to acquire level 7 creatures, that will only make it even worse. I find that during single player mode, I can with succes avquire and employ my level 7 units - but that still doesn't change the fact that I think Necropolis is completely imballanced with their immense level 1 power, and I think that problem needs solving - in order to give the other players a fair chance, and in order to make playing Necropolis more fun. After all, for me when I've taken out the enemy with my Skeletons 100 combats in a row, it starts getting somewhat tedious.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 12, 2006 11:36 AM |
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ohh don't worry, other sides have their abusive strategies too (like Deleb), so it may be called almost-balanced at multi
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted July 12, 2006 12:23 PM |
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hummm.. well alot of time in early game I dont even use the skels, just the meat shields do the work since i have found that once you get them close enough to most creeps on heroic that they will attack the zombies instead of the skels anyway so i just plod along in a few battles and split em in such a way that you create shock stacks and the a main bust it up stack and go to town...
____________
Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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RaZmuShaDoW
Known Hero
The Sync Bug Hunter
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posted July 12, 2006 05:06 PM |
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Necros are just too strong. All the arguments are listed above many times.
Of course if playing with them all the time it brings a lot of fun trashing everyhing on your way. But all of you who think that this faction is OK try to play with the same level Human player AGAINST Necro with some other race. You will understand.
And I know why this problem exists. Ubi made the game that is very logical/realistic. I mean it's is nice to know that rise dead should keep the creatures after the battle. Also it sounds logical that any living creature can be killed and became a undead creature of the same strengh. But we all know that real life is hard for some and easy for others. So in real strategy games beeing to logical and realistic may spoil the strategic possibilities.
Anyways if Ubi are clever and Necros are in fact too strong - the patch will repair it.
Good luck all of you antinecros out here!
____________
What’s the point of being a renegade if you still have to pay taxes?
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted July 12, 2006 05:09 PM |
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In my opinion giving inocporeal ability to Spectre Dragons will fit the necro town for all kind of batlles. Maybe it could be with less chance - 30%-20% but such abilyty will mske their low hp more acceptable
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This thread is pages long: 
