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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 03:36 PM |
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Quote:
Well, I did not personally make that statement. I'm one of those atheists that actually recognises Jesus as a pretty cool guy. The statement ''Jesus is a snow'' is a slogan from death metal-band Cradle of Filth, IIRC. It's just something they think makes them more ''hardcore'' by saying it, and hasn't got anything to do with the discussion about God. Take it with a grain of salt.
tell it to immature 16 yo kiddos who throw slogans of random bands on the internet thinking they are cool by doing so.
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Vexon
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posted August 15, 2008 03:42 PM |
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Point taken, but it is true that religion for the most part raises the bar to an inhuman level. For instance, without religion people would still go to jail for committing an act of murder. But, without, say, Islam, people would not suffer for eating a porkchop or non-halal meat in general. Without Christianity, people would not suffer for eternity for telling a lie because it seemed the right thing (unless it's purgery, but that's a different perspective).
Humanity in general knows what is wrong. It is wrong to steal, it is wrong to kill, et cetera. We don't need a religion to tell us that if you kill someone, you'll burn until the end of time, however. And we can't challenge God to his perspective until we die and meet him, as the belief goes, so basically as soon as your mom asks you whether you brushed your teeth and you lie about it, you're going to Hell. If you've once skipped doing your homework and copied a classmate's and your teacher asks for your answer and you proceed to read the copied answer, you're going to Hell.
We don't need that stuff. It's fear. And the only reason it is accepted by the religious is because fear of Hell is something they can do something about. They can go to church every Sunday and pray to whoever they believe in. But what they cannot do, is stop themselves from dying, and thus they need something. That something is the hope of heaven and thereby the existence of God.
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 03:50 PM |
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Quote:
Humanity in general knows what is wrong. It is wrong to steal, it is wrong to kill, et cetera. We don't need a religion to tell us that if you kill someone, you'll burn until the end of time, however. And we can't challenge God to his perspective until we die and meet him, as the belief goes, so basically as soon as your mom asks you whether you brushed your teeth and you lie about it, you're going to Hell. If you've once skipped doing your homework and copied a classmate's and your teacher asks for your answer and you proceed to read the copied answer, you're going to Hell.
Definitively not in Christianity. I know some of the Popes decided to spread such myths of "going to hell", but that was just for more control. Most people don't even realize what Christianity really is about, but they criticize and repeat the myths they overheard somewhere. aww. Never mind. If you really want to know, New Testament informs that people will be redeemed because of their faith, and if that was not enough, because of their actions. Those will remain immortal, the rest will simply die forever. There is no "endless torment". If you want direct quotes, I can search for them, but I don't really want to (too lazy), so I hope you'll just believe in what I say. 
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TheDeath
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posted August 15, 2008 03:51 PM |
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What you said is interesting. For clarification and my point of view, let me quote from another thread:Quote:
What does good mean? Good by the purest of definitions, implies that you need not seek any kind of personal gain over others'. That does not mean that you won't feel any kind of gain, it only means that the respective feeling should not be the one deciding your inherent altruistic action. Therefore, if you are altruistic, and you pursuit that goal instead of any kind of reward, then you are good, regardless of the actual reward that is yet to come. Here is an example to illustrate this better.
Good: You go help someone because you are kind. What's the cause of this? Your kindness/good heart/whatever. Does a reward come thereafter? Doesn't matter and shouldn't impact any thought.
Not Good: You go help someone because you know you are going to get a reward (whether that is material, or emotional).
Please note I am not claiming that in the former case the reward does not come -- merely pointing out that the reward has no impact over your actions. To be good means, to do something 'good' without thinking about the reward. Regardless of whether you are rewarded thereafter. Regardless.
This means, if the only thing you do "good" is because you expect a reward (get away from Hell, is a reward in itself), then you are not good purely. Of course, you will not go to Hell if you are good (at least religions says that), but THIS FEAR should not be the thing that MOTIVATES you, because it is a "reward".
You need to do good from your heart or feelings, not with a reward in mind (escape from Hell). The reward CAN come afterwards and it is perfectly fine. However, it must not MOTIVATE you.
At least that's if you want to be "good" from a religious point of view. 
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 03:58 PM |
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lol mate we can't possibly become a higher consciousness and act outside the "reward/punishment" box. It's how we work. We can't change it. People who think they do otherwise just found another type of reward that suits their needs. Like, the satisfaction of being "a better guy" and "not doing things for rewards". It's a reward too 
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Azagal
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posted August 15, 2008 04:00 PM |
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But what they cannot do, is stop themselves from dying, and thus they need something. That something is the hope of heaven and thereby the existence of God.
. It is a very reasonable explanation for religion indeed. But for some people there is more(atleast they think). The funny thing is I'm a very religious man (not to be mixed up with a very christian man eventhough I'm christian) and I can't asure myself 100% that I don't "believe" exactly because of that. Not because I'm scared of death but simply because I wouldn't want everything to be gone when I die (for me that's not the same thing). But lol I'm getting off topic what I really wanted to say is:
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But, without, say, Islam, people would not suffer for eating a porkchop or non-halal meat in general.
Well they don't suffer suffer. I don't see whats wrong with having reglementations (I personally can't fully understand why any god would stop his people from enjoying something tasty just because it eats trash while it's still alive but I'm not Allah nor muslim). If they choose to live with that it is not a problem. And they most certainly don't suffer. Ask a muslim if he suffers he'll tell you he doesn't. Sure you can argue that they didn't "chose" to be muslim and take all the reglementations but perhaps you also took on some "habits" of your parents when you were small and learned to live with them as something completly normal. My friend is vegetarian simply because her parents didn't feed her anything else when she was small. And she's happy. So I don't see how religion makes people "suffer" through reglementations.
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We don't need a religion to tell us that if you kill someone, you'll burn until the end of time, however.
But it keeps them from doing it IF they are believers. So (only theoretically of course) every christian that believes in the immoratlity of his soul will most certainly not commit murder. I mean if they keep of from doing BAD things I think it's ok. Sure it is more reasonable and perhaps civilized to learn from experience but I hope you agree when I say that you don't have to try EVERYTHING before you'd know that it is bad (as some of the "hardcore" sins in the church). I'm not saying that the church didn't intentionally use that fear to lable all kind of bullsnow a sin and get people to follow but that doesn't mean that all "punishment" was ridicolous.
Oh and I think you are being a bit too interpretive with the "Don't do your homework?! I'll enjoy your soul petty human child " thingy... But that may be because I'm a rather liberal christian (I'm not even sure whether god aproves of my behaviour ... I think he does usually).
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TheDeath
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posted August 15, 2008 04:03 PM |
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lol mate we can't possibly become a higher consciousness and act outside the "reward/punishment" box. It's how we work. We can't change it. People who think they do otherwise just found another type of reward that suits their needs. Like, the satisfaction of being "a better guy" and "not doing things for rewards". It's a reward too
Now you sound like mvass.
What's the reward of a sacrifice? 
You know you'll die? Is it emotional benefit? Ok, then those are the only reward allowed
but no this was in the Moral Philosophy thread and I don't want to revive the discussion.
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Azagal
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posted August 15, 2008 04:06 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 16:09, 15 Aug 2008.
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@Doomforge
Hmm...but it's still better to act because what you do is good than to act because you think you'll get a reward for doing something good. No? I mean just because "acting because something is good" is rewarding, it doesn't mean that it's not "good". Understand what I'm trying to say?
EDIT: TheDeath got it in any case
EDIT: Jesus I've forgot how complicated discussing in this thread is . You answer one guy and while you answer 3 others throw up 7 new questions and you want to answer all at once and by the time the other guys answers your original question you've already gone from 1 to 100  .
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 04:10 PM |
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What's the reward of a sacrifice?
Inner peace and a strong feeling of "good decision". Altruism isn't only human reaction, mind you. It is present in reactions of lesser beings. Like bees. One of them sacrifices to save the rest, although it will die from the attack, and gain nothing for itself. As more complex beings, we have more ways to explain our decisions, but it's still the same old mechanism, I think.
I sound like mvass, you say Well, I'm not very enthusiastic for the mysticism and such. I prefer reasonable explanations and scientific evidences. That does not prevent me from believing in God, but it makes my attitude different from the most of the Christian people, I think. In my opinion, science and faith are two completely different things, but you can combine them and they won't interfere with each other. At least it works like that for me.
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Lexxan
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posted August 15, 2008 04:20 PM |
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I think religion is 100% obselete today. Has anyone noticed that the place where the greatest zealots live, are also the places where there's (almost) no modern techonology? Does anyone find it odd that place like Yemen, Sri-Lanka, Texas or Xingjan host more religious fanatics than other places in the world? (and that these places are much more remote than New York, Japan, Germany or Mexico-city?)
Presently people only are zealous because A) They seek a form of comfort, that no human (accoring to them) can give them B) They were dissapointed in humanity due to some kind of event, and seek out new ways C) They never learned anything else.
Religion is Obselete: Stories about Gardens of Eden, Evil snakes and brothercide are nothing more than myths. We have PROOF than religion is nothing more than a fairy tale, we've got enough Scientific, Physical, Paleontologic, Forensic and Geological EVIDENCE. Only those who didn't have access to this knowledge as a child, or those who simply hate these things, still cling to a god these days.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 04:28 PM |
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Right, because you think it's obsolete, it automatically is.
You see, that is not an argument.
Even the greatest minds of humanity weren't sure. Stephen Hawking claimed that whenever we try to understand the beginning of the universe, we come to religious conclusions. Albert Einstein, while not exactly a theist (but not an atheist, either - he believed in an unpersonalized God) bashed people that claimed to know the truth, like TA or Mvass try to do.
quote.
“The fanatical atheists…are creatures who cannot hear the music of the spheres. I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist. What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos.”
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Galev
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posted August 15, 2008 04:29 PM |
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Definitively not in Christianity. I know some of the Popes decided to spread such myths of "going to hell", but that was just for more control. Most people don't even realize what Christianity really is about, but they criticize and repeat the myths they overheard somewhere. aww. Never mind. If you really want to know, New Testament informs that people will be redeemed because of their faith, and if that was not enough, because of their actions. Those will remain immortal, the rest will simply die forever. There is no "endless torment". If you want direct quotes, I can search for them, but I don't really want to (too lazy), so I hope you'll just believe in what I say.
Oh, there are pretty many myth and legend about Christianity...
I quote in one verse, because I'm a bit late, probably a longer post later... But for now:
Romans chapter 3, verse 24:
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
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TheDeath
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posted August 15, 2008 04:37 PM |
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I sound like mvass, you say Well, I'm not very enthusiastic for the mysticism and such. I prefer reasonable explanations and scientific evidences.
I wasn't talking about mysticism at all, but about the Moral Philosophy thread (that's where my quote is from anyway).
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I think religion is 100% obselete today. Has anyone noticed that the place where the greatest zealots live, are also the places where there's (almost) no modern techonology?
I don't see the connection. Most (very religious) people prefer spiritual enhancement over material goods. Maybe that's a reason. Or is the "material" goods a thing YOU worship?
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Presently people only are zealous because A) They seek a form of comfort, that no human (accoring to them) can give them B) They were dissapointed in humanity due to some kind of event, and seek out new ways C) They never learned anything else.
Maybe (A) is true, don't you think that what you're doing is like saying "That music genre is crap!"??
I don't see the problem with (B).
With (C) you are a bit too sure of yourself and your "common sense" (see below), thinking that everyone else must be similar to you (in thinking obviously).
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We have PROOF than religion is nothing more than a fairy tale, we've got enough Scientific, Physical, Paleontologic, Forensic and Geological EVIDENCE.
Seems you skipped most of what I said in this thread (I don't blame you!).
First of all, there's really no "evidence" against God, nor for God. Of course the burden of "proof" is on those who make claims, but claiming "God doesn't exist" is a claim as well (just like "God exists" mind you).
We only have "evidence" because that's what we EXPECT from our world -- a mechanistic, mathematical, and non-random where mathematical patterns are followed and things are predictable (logic of induction used for example). There are a lot of axioms/postulates used in science. People take them for granted. Why is that? Because, common sense tells them that what they see with their eyes, is true?
Hallucinations are "seen" too. Common sense tells us that no one else sees, thus it's false. What about blind people? You see, this "common sense" dictates our lives. It is not bad, mind you.
However it is bad when other people say that everyone has the same "common sense". If you use common sense as an argument in Creationist stories (of course, I personally am not fond of them that much) you are replied with skepticism and rejection. However, what amazes me is that science also is based on that.
Not everyone walked on the Moon. Not everyone built a specific device. How do you know it works correctly? Even if you build that device, you ASSUME that it works the way you expect (outside your laboratory tests, for example). This is called logic of induction. Is that not a "belief" in how the world acts?
I have no problem with beliefs myself. What I am arguing is that it's wrong to use just the "belief" counter-argument for religion -- science is full of it as well
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mvassilev
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posted August 15, 2008 04:44 PM |
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Vexon:
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I'm one of those atheists that actually recognises Jesus as a pretty cool guy.
eh preaches to people on a mountain and doesnt afraid of anything. Completely off-topic, but funny.
Doomforge:
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lol mate we can't possibly become a higher consciousness and act outside the "reward/punishment" box. It's how we work. We can't change it. People who think they do otherwise just found another type of reward that suits their needs. Like, the satisfaction of being "a better guy" and "not doing things for rewards". It's a reward too
I approve of this statement. 
TheDeath:
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I don't see the connection. Most (very religious) people prefer spiritual enhancement over material goods. Maybe that's a reason. Or is the "material" goods a thing YOU worship?
But often they don't even let others have "material" good, even if they want to.
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First of all, there's really no "evidence" against God, nor for God. Of course the burden of "proof" is on those who make claims, but claiming "God doesn't exist" is a claim as well (just like "God exists" mind you).
"Invisible pink unicorns don't exist." Is that a claim?
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 04:44 PM |
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Religion is Obselete: Stories about Gardens of Eden, Evil snakes and brothercide are nothing more than myths. We have PROOF than religion is nothing more than a fairy tale, we've got enough Scientific, Physical, Paleontologic, Forensic and Geological EVIDENCE. Only those who didn't have access to this knowledge as a child, or those who simply hate these things, still cling to a god these days.
I have to quote this one again, for it is a perfect example of what Einstein bashed
Look Lexxan.. compared to people like Hawking and Einstein, we are nothing but idiots. If people who were/are geniuses have/had doubts, or were theists.. why do you even try to back your opinion up with science and such? Want to say you know more then them? Lol, just lol. Put science aside, guys. It has NOTHING to do with God.
All I'm trying to say is that it's a personal preference whether you do or do not believe.. If you try to use things you do not fully understand as evidence.. well.. That's not very wise, you know?
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mvassilev
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posted August 15, 2008 04:45 PM |
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Lexxan
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posted August 15, 2008 04:46 PM |
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alright... Alright
(but I still think there is a connection between science and religion... or maybe I read too much Dan Brown, that's another possibility)
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 04:46 PM |
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mvass: Say what you want. If extreme and genius scientists can't use science to determine whether there is a higher power or not, so can't we. I think it's quite obvious. We have to use other arguments than "physics" or "science" because
a) we fail at it
b) the best at it aren't sure either
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TheDeath
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posted August 15, 2008 04:47 PM |
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But often they don't even let] others have "material" good, even if they want to.
You know, the world is full of "bad" people in case you didn't know. Some bad people (e.g: Stalin, just so you have a definite atheist) don't allow others do a lot of things. How is that an argument?
And if you're talking about environmentalists (not religion) then yeah -- you see, those with "material" goods want SOMETHING, that bothers something else. Of course they have to intervene It is like the one who "makes" an action is the one responsible
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"Invisible pink unicorns don't exist." Is that a claim?
YES it is a claim. It may sound "silly" and what-not. However, what is "silly"? Isn't it based on common sense or feelings?
The appropiate response would be "I don't know whether Invisible pink unicorns exist or not" -- this doesn't have any burden of proof.
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Doomforge
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posted August 15, 2008 04:51 PM |
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First of all, God and pink unicorns are different things.
We have no proof for pink unicorns and we have no official believers, except some mad men.
As for God, we have an extremely long tradition, many failed attempts to prove God doesn't exist, either scientifically or logically, we also have proofs - or at least SOMETHING that concerns the subject. Bible, the history of Christ, many people's personal experience - for example. Whether you like it or not, it's something entirely different than "pink unicorns".
Also, the amount of people believing in God, ranging from stupid to brilliant, is also a factor.
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