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warlore
Famous Hero
servant of urgash
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posted October 06, 2007 09:58 PM |
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i dont have been never ever believed for god. not for bad,but i believe facts. It is possible that in space is life, but i dont that either
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A Nightmare from below.A hero from Within
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted October 07, 2007 06:50 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 18:50, 07 Oct 2007.
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There was something I read in my local newspaper that Tom Cruise and friends of him have found out that humans, all carry souls from dead foreign alines that were tossed in volcanoes by an evil being named Xenon (couldnt remember exactly the name) and thereafter nuked all the volcanoes...which explains why we had ice ages.
Seriously thats the most snowty theory I ever heard!
And no. I myself dont believe in gods and devils, if I had the power I would kill both good and evil, the force of balance are in fact what keeps the world at this point from being overrun by fanatics...or non believers. But I have to choose a side. Im a pure non beliver, when it come to gods and evils. Though I admit, I THINK there are ghosts, auras, visionary people and those that can heal by their own hands. But to be honest these are abilities a certain few are born with and not all people become ghosts (they who become, I think they didnt fullfill their life goal)
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 08, 2007 09:58 AM |
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And no. I myself dont believe in gods and devils, if I had the power I would kill both good and evil, the force of balance are in fact what keeps the world at this point from being overrun by fanatics...or non believers.
oh god not the non believers!!
lol. you've watched too much constantine. What do you mean kill both good and evil.. and the force of balance? what does that even mean? there are equal numbers? that sort of thing is the cause of conflict, just with a cooler sounding word.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 08, 2007 10:44 AM |
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I believe he is refering to something similar to Yin and Yang. Opposit forces that balance the universe. When that balance becomes upset then things go bad. Somebody who has the best intentions can go overboard and do more harm then good. Things like that.
Maybe balance applies to things like work and play, temperature, pH, diet, but not to amount of religious followers to non believers.
If anything, balance is the LAST thing you want.
Why would you want to have a split balance between two opposing factions.
Think of John Lennon's song.. Imagine there's no heaven 
Even having everyone with the same religious belief would be more peaceful than two opposing.
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There is a theory that good can not exsist without evil, and vice versa. Just as order can not exsist without chaos. This is one of the reasons I believe that any higher being would be neutral and not either good nor evil.
This is the stuff of movies without any application to the real world.
Perhaps good cannot exist without evil because there would be nothing to compare it to... just like people in Africa don't care because they've never lived in a mansion, right?
and isn't 'good' in a religious sense defined by the god anyway?
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Lets take the christian idea. If god would get fed up and destroy Satan(and all his minions), he would also destroy free will. This might cause anybody born after that time (if there are) never to have known what evil was. It is theorized that if you do not know evil, you may not be able to understand good. This would cause a huge problem. Of course in their believe this would never happen, because god has endless patience.
What huge problem would that cause? If everyone in the world was happy and good, but they didn't understand it fully, this is a huge problem? More so than evil and plague and death and destruction, just so we can UNDERSTAND why a hug and a smile is good, and why stealing isn't?
And if you think God has endless patience then you're obviously talking about a polar opposite god to that of the Bible.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 08, 2007 12:17 PM |
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Ah but the people in Africa know that such things do exsist.
Some do. Some don't.
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Take a blind and deaf person who was raised miles from anybody but their parents. Now this person's parents do what they can, but they don't want their child to miss what they can not have, so they don't teach them about color. Would that child miss the color red? Not knowing it does exsist, how could they?
No, but the child can lament bumping into things, not being able to find things etc.
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We know evil exsists, so we can appreciate the good things we have. It might be a totally different matter if we had never encountered or had knowledge of evil. How do you know if you are happy if you have never been sad? Nothing to compair it too. Now I am not saying it would not be nice to never have to suffer or such. Far from it.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that it would not matter in the slightest whether or not we knew. You just think it does because it sounds morally correct, when it's really just senseless.
Either have evil, torture, pain, suffering, crime, punishment, disease and all that baggage but know what happiness is
OR
Be entirely happy (from our perspective) but not know that it could be worse.
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I do think we should not expect things to fall into our lap, from earthly or other sources. However, believing that we are more then just dressed up apes with nothing beyond our deaths seems a little disheartening. Your beliefs are your own, and I respect them. Wish you luck in whatever you believe in also. Personally I will keep looking for answers, even if I may never find them.
I like your last sentence. Sounds very noble. Perhaps a scene from Lord of the Rings, or the Matrix.
But whats really going on is that you merely don't want to accept this idea (you said so yourself). Anyone who has experienced death of a close one or even thought about it has had the thought cross their mind: will I see this person ever again?
Because the answer NO is so monstrous, people will reject it at all costs.
That's why Christianity is so attractive. "Worship this god and you can see your grandmother again, at discount prices!" Like an ad campaign from Jesus.
Despite overwhelming evidence pointing towards evolution, people think so highly of themselves that they don't WANT to believe that humans descended from apes, so they ignore and reject it. It's really really simple psychology.
But ignoring the score 10-12 won't put Australia back in the quarter finals.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 08, 2007 01:07 PM |
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Perhaps, but I do find it odd that in all of written history not one case of cross species evolution has happened. Sure there has been mutations, but no insect has become a mammal. You would figure that even if evolution came in spurts that sometime there would be documented this happening. I am not saying that evolution is fake, but it does lead one to wonder. (They often use the tse fly as an example, but it remains an insect even if it can no longer procroate with it's own kind. Humans also have this with close relitives and I doubt anybody would argue they are no longer human)
Most of written history was spent with the assured knowledge that God created all species 4000 years ago at 9am and they have not changed since. Until 1859 when Charles Darwin finally published his fearful work the Origin of Species.
This year is 2007. That means that you are wondering why an insect hasn't turned into (?) a mammal in 148 years...
Ignoring the fact that one insect isn't going to spontaneously turn into a mammal, mammals evolved over billions of years.
I think you misunderstand the concept of evolution.
It's a continual process. One species can evolve into another by speciation, but the generalization is that they just 'change'
mammal and insect are classes. which means all mammals are classed because they share an origin.
All animals share the same Kingdom origin.
All mammals share the same class origin etc.
An insect shares an ancestry with all insects. It can't suddenly change to share an ancestry with mammals. (edit: to avoid confusion, I know that if you go back far enough they all share an origin in that they are 'animals', but i am referring to that particular branch of evolution ) It can change into a different kind of insect, and possibly keep evolving and if there is an extreme change in the environment and it requires warm blood or gestation or whatever then this could evolve over billions of years.
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Evolution also does not preclude religion, nor does it superceed it. For all we know, some higher power started the ball rolling, then let things take it's own course. Until I see a fly become a snake, I'll withold judgement (just an example). Again, I keep an open mind about evolution and the fact that there may be nothing beyond just this exsistance. Heck, I would be fortunate if that is the case, because according to most religions, I am headed to the bad place just for being myself.
No, but it is exclusive to doctrinal Christianity.
In fact, to pretty much all theology.
What you speak of is Deism, where the god no longer changes the universe.
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Think of it this way. If you are right, and there is nothing else, you gain or loose nothing. After you pass on, thats it. If those who believe there is something else after are right, you (and I) loose a lot. Best to keep an open mind. Hope for the best, prepair for the worst. Anyhow, this ends my participation for awhile. I never have been one to force my views on others and live by the view that everybody's oppinon has equal merit. There is a good possibility I have it all wrong, and need professional help  . I'll keep an open mind.
What kind of a God would allow people in by gambling on the odds and choosing him because, well, he's the best bet?
I'm not going to spend my life worshiping someone just in case he's real.
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Nidhgrin
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baking cookies from stardust
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posted October 08, 2007 01:21 PM |
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What is good? What is evil? Something that appears good to you, might be considered evil by someone else - and vice versa. Both concepts are interchangeable, depending on your point of view and cultural/religious background. For instance, you might think that eating dogs is cruel, but Chinese people don't. Muslims consider eating pork unpure, but you probably do not.
Who are we to decide about good and evil? Who are we to project these concepts onto a divine being, and forge them into rules and laws for everyone to follow? Are we not truly evil ourselves when we deny the uniqueness of other beings and societies, and disallow them to have different ideas?
Realizing that there is no universal concept which defines good and bad for ALL people (though I admit there are a few morals that exist in all civilizations), is a first step towards self relativation.
Life itself is not linear. It's a complex cycle, which in the long run balances itself out. After you pass on, you will probably never exist as the same individual again, but right now you do have the chance to leave a mark. It's up to you to choose how you want to become immortal. All of us who exist together in this moment are a part of this balance. Call it god if you must... Don't waste your time in devotion or fear of a supernatural entity that may or may not exist. Your time here is short, so make it matter.
That is what I believe in.
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Gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted October 08, 2007 01:59 PM |
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there is good and bad things,they have their culture(and maybe is wrong...)like in the india,they think that the cows are sacred,and look they area all hungry for dont eat them... and depends of the moral and ethic,we all know that lie is bad,kill is bad,the best example would be the 10 orders in the bible,read it and you will see,like if you would be see good that your wife for example,sleeps with other man? lol thats bad,not good,and if you think the life is short then that means have a lot of fun,women,sex,all the bad stuff or whatever? i dont think so,and you and noone can say "no,god doesnt exist" how do you know that? your short experience in life cant know it,is just a matter of faith,very very hard for some to understand it.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 08, 2007 02:30 PM |
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the best example would be the 10 orders in the bible,read it and you will see
I wouldn't say the best example... 
Here's something I posted about 32 odd pages back...
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Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. bbbHere's what happened:
About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.
Well let me ask you this- when they were making this **** up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why- because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bull**** list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.
Let's start with the first three:
I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH
Right off the bat the first three are pure bull****. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:
HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER
Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.
Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS
Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.
And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE
Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is- coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.
But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR"S GOODS
This one is just plain ****in' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:
THOU SHALT NOT KILL
Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:
Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his ****in' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.
-George Carlin
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WarLore
Famous Hero
servant of urgash
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posted October 08, 2007 04:09 PM |
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there are ghosts and auras? could be possible how about nessie,yeti,chupacabra,aliens all "new age" creatures (1800-2007)
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A Nightmare from below.A hero from Within
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Gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted October 08, 2007 04:39 PM |
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you want me to believe that you posted? lol sorry but no,all that is bull**** you can learn of the 10,in my case i learned some,cos the others I already knew it,what is bad and whats good,and idk if the ppl of that time where stupid...  cos stupid there it was always,and i think more in our time.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 08, 2007 05:38 PM |
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TA Wrote:
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Take a blind and deaf person who was raised miles from anybody but their parents. Now this person's parents do what they can, but they don't want their child to miss what they can not have, so they don't teach them about color. Would that child miss the color red? Not knowing it does exsist, how could they?
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No, but the child can lament bumping into things, not being able to find things etc.
Only if the child knew that other people did not have to lament bumping into things. If the child did not know that other people had vision, he/she could not lament not having it himself.
For instance, do you lament not being able to teleport? Would you, if you knew other people could do it?
Mytical wrote:
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Perhaps, but I do find it odd that in all of written history not one case of cross species evolution has happened. Sure there has been mutations, but no insect has become a mammal.
A: written history is a very, very, very tiny fraction of actual history.
B: Insects and Humans DO have a common ancestor.
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Until I see a fly become a snake, I'll withold judgement (just an example). Again, I keep an open mind about evolution and the fact that there may be nothing beyond just this exsistance.
If you actually saw a fly become a snake, that would pretty much destroy the entire theory of evolution as it is currently understood, which goes to show that you don't understand it yourself. Hard to keep an open mind about something you clearly don't understand at all.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 09, 2007 09:46 AM |
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Only if the child knew that other people did not have to lament bumping into things. If the child did not know that other people had vision, he/she could not lament not having it himself.
For instance, do you lament not being able to teleport? Would you, if you knew other people could do it?
Maybe.
But I think not.
If someone had punched you in the face every day since you were born, and you just figured that everyone else got punched in the face every day and never mentioned it, wouldn't you still hate getting punched in the face?
I think a person who was blind from birth and thought blind was the norm still would hate traversing the physical world without "vision" (even though they would not be able to even imagine such a thing). It would be very hard being blind, and human beings can lament hardships even if they believe they are the norm.
And lament not being able to teleport? Hell yes. I also lament not being able to stop time. 
Think about it.
You get tired, stop time for about 10 or so hours, however long you want, and sleep, then unstop time and no time has past, you can spend the rest of the night doing whatever you want. Or any other chore that you don't like doing, don't have to waste time
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 09, 2007 11:55 AM |
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Just to clear a few things up . Don't mind me.
First, yes I realise I mispoke. To put it more accurately, if I saw a fly have snake offspring, then I would be more apt to believe it. This was only an example, and even had this noted in my post.
We know. This idea still goes against the fundamental premise of evolution.
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Insects and humans have a common ancestory IF you believe that we evolved from a single cell organism. Though DNA may suggest we have some common genes, that by no means means that we are related. Believe what you will, to me it has not been significantly proven yet.
Common DNA means little. Even if we did evolve from a single cell organism, there is no proof that it was not guided by some higher poewer. However, just having a few markers in common with something does not mean that you decended from it, or vice versa. And here is something just for fun.
It actually does mean alot.
DNA codes for a specific organism. But species change (which is proven), and mutations occur in the DNA alleles. This leads to diversity and if the change is significant it will become a different species. If you examin genetic linkage groups on the chromosomes of two organisms, these genes are unlikely to segregate, so are less likely to change over time without mutation.
This means that as an organism evolves (ie. animal into human or cat or whatever) it is possible that these genetic linkage groups will remain the same, even as evolution branches off into separate species (cat and human for example).
When compared, they are found to have many of the same genetic linkage groups.
You can also track evolution through the amino acid sequences in proteins.
These common sequences of dna bases and amino acids are so complex that any similarity is extremely likely to be coincidence, let alone with humans and chimpanzees where many proteins have identical amino acids sequences and overall only a 2.4% difference in DNA.
Due to the DNA structure changing over time due to mutations, this actually IS evidence that they share a common ancestry, not to mention homologous features.
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Ever stopped to think instead of us evolving from something that they could have deevolved from us? Hmm? 
Umm... nope.
Can't say I have.
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Even though evolution is supposed to come in spurts and leaps and bounds..the after effects would linger for a long long time. Not to mention there are how many species and types of creatures in the world? We would be having apes having human like children to this day imo. Since this is not happening, makes me wonder. That's all. Again..though this seems to get lost..I don't think Evolution is incorrect. Just pointing out some possible problems.
This isn't a problem at all. This is a complete misunderstanding.
There is no possible evolutionary mechanism to explain how an ape could possibly give birth to a human. I'm not sure where you read that evolution comes in leaps and bounds, but what I am sure of is that your time scale is off by a factor of at least millions.
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See I do not believe in the genesis from the bible, though I respect those who do. To each their own I say. I also have issues with some of the inconsistacies (pardon if misspelled) that they have.
Here is what I believe (and mind you, I realise I may need professional help and could be WAY off the mark).
Some higher power forged the universe, with all its quirks and problems, then let nature take it's course. It didn't need to guide evolution, because it already knew that (though humans were not meant to be an end result) humans would show up on their own. So yes, I think Evolution has it right. However, I also think this higher power does interfear, just not with evolution. We are not a finished product by a long shot. I do believe that miricles happen, I do believe that there are things we can not explain that are real.
The higher power is neither good nor evil..in any sense of the word. It does not cause hardships, but neither does it prevent them. Why? Because strife and hardship are neccessarry to help Evolution. If the was no reason to adapt, why would we? After we die it looks at our actions and deeds, and if we have achieved enough enlightment and inner peace passess us to the next realm. If not, it would stink to be you. It's pass/fail people. Either ya get it, or ya don't.
So I think there is a lot to learn from peoples religion and beliefs. So I think that everybody should learn from each other and not pass judgement. These are just my beliefs. "And it harm none, do what you will."
Sorry, again I meant to stay out of this for awhile. I'll get off my soapbox for awhile. My anti-babel fish is doing it's job. It makes sure nobody can understand a thing I am saying. Peace.
Is there any reason for believing all this? Or just an idea?
Besides, humans aren't the finished product, we're still evolving.
Just in a different way I guess. Becoming suited to our environment is less of a problem, we have hygiene, safe homes, clean water, medicine that may even be slowing evolution.
But then, won't a more attractive person be more likely to have children? lol I reckon chicks are becoming hotter every generation
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John says to live above hell.
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 09, 2007 03:40 PM |
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Amazing observation TA, animals with characteristics that are similar to each other will have similar DNA!
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
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baking cookies from stardust
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posted October 09, 2007 04:05 PM |
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Please stay respectful of each other's ideas, and of each other - even when someone's thoughts conflict with your own beliefs.
Try to keep an open mind, and learn from the differences in thought and behaviour of other people instead of instantly adopting one, or rejecting another.
That way, we keep this discussion interesting for everyone.
Thanks for listening,
Ivo
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 09, 2007 04:47 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 17:27, 09 Oct 2007.
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Quoting TitaniumAlloy:
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If someone had punched you in the face every day since you were born, and you just figured that everyone else got punched in the face every day and never mentioned it, wouldn't you still hate getting punched in the face?
I'm not quite sure that's an apple-to-apple analogy. Being punched in the face is physically damaging, so of course you would rue having that done to you every day, regardless of whether it happened to everybody else. The point is (following the next quote):
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I think a person who was blind from birth and thought blind was the norm still would hate traversing the physical world without "vision" (even though they would not be able to even imagine such a thing). It would be very hard being blind, and human beings can lament hardships even if they believe they are the norm.
The point is that if you never had vision, and did not know that it was even possible to perceive light of visible wavelengths, you would not be able to make a value judgement about not being able to see. Your opinion here is colored by the fact that you DO know what it is to perceive light. It WOULD be hard being blind. But if you believed that that is just the way humans were, you wouldn't really be capable of being pissed about it. Being restricted to the ground by gravity is damn inconvenient at times, but I don't go around pissing and moaning because I don't have wings. Yet.
The teleportation analogy was a little bit tongue in cheek, of course. I lament not being able to teleport also. But more seriously, a better example perhaps is whether you lament not being able to see in the infrared. Or to hear extremely high-pitched sounds. Or even better - humans do not have the sensory capability to do echolocation. At least, they do not have the capability like, for instance, bats do. Bats use a form of sonar to home in on their prey. It is very sophisticated and gives them a great sensory advantage. Certainly, if humans had this sensory ability, their lives might be easier. They do not, because they evolved this way, and have eyes instead. But still, most humans probably do not lament not having echolocation. And if humans DID have echolocation, a person without this ability through genetic mutation WOULD lament not having it, and would probably say things like "It would be very hard being without echolocation". But seeing as humans do not have echolocation, they do not lament having it, even if having it would make life easier. This is because we do not have a basis for comparison. The same goes for ultrasonic hearing or IR-vision. They would be nice, and life is harder - to some degree - without them. But because there is no basis for comparison, you cannot really lament not having it. If humans never evolved to have vision, it wouldn't really be possible to be upset about not having it. Of course, humans probably would have evolved some other sense instead.
(For the record, many blind people DO have a primitive sense of echolocation. Which is pretty cool if you ask me.
Quoting Mytical:
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First, yes I realise I mispoke. To put it more accurately, if I saw a fly have snake offspring, then I would be more apt to believe it. This was only an example, and even had this noted in my post.
Then I misspoke also. To put it more accurately, if you actually saw a fly have a snake offspring, that would pretty much destroy the entire theory of evolution as it is currently understood, which goes to show that you don't understand it yourself. Hard to keep an open mind about something you clearly don't understand at all.
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Insects and humans have a common ancestory IF you believe that we evolved from a single cell organism.
You don't have to go back to the single-cell level to find a common ancestor.
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Though DNA may suggest we have some common genes, that by no means means that we are related. Believe what you will, to me it has not been significantly proven yet.
How can you make a judgement when you don't understand - or haven't even taken time to look for - all the evidence that supports the theory?
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Ever stopped to think instead of us evolving from something that they could have deevolved from us? Hmm?
First, de-evolved is a very poor word choice. Second, modern humans have not been around long enough to make that a statistical possibility.
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Even though evolution is supposed to come in spurts and leaps and bounds..the after effects would linger for a long long time. Not to mention there are how many species and types of creatures in the world? We would be having apes having human like children to this day imo. Since this is not happening, makes me wonder. That's all. Again..though this seems to get lost..I don't think Evolution is incorrect. Just pointing out some possible problems.
I'm not sure what any of that means, but I don't really think you've pointed out any possible problems with evolution at all. All you've pointed out is that you don't really understand it.
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Some higher power forged the universe, with all its quirks and problems, then let nature take it's course.
See, I just see why it's necessary to make this axiomatic statement. What reason do you have to believe that "some higher power" started off the universe. If that's as specific as you can get about it, why is it any better of a metaphysical solution than there being no higher power? Doesn't it strike you as silly to believe in something for no reason than "just because"?
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It didn't need to guide evolution, because it already knew that (though humans were not meant to be an end result) humans would show up on their own.
In his book Creation Revisited, Peter Atkins argued along a similar line. Once atoms and molecules formed, human evolution (well, evolution of intelligent life, anyway) and the structure of the universe as we know it was inevitable given the starting conditions. In other words, the creator could sort of be lazy once the ball was rolling. The difference between your argument and his is that in his, you can keep going back step after step and show that each step in the evolution of the universe was inevitable given the step before and so in sum the creator could be INFINITELY lazy and thus might as well not exist at all. It's quite a fascinating read. Maybe it will convince you in how unnecessary it is to believe in God.
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I do believe that miricles happen, I do believe that there are things we can not explain that are real.
I believe that miracles happen as well. However, whereas you may believe that a big white-bearded man in the sky is responsible, I believe that miracles are nothing more than statistical anomalies. Given the size and age of the universe, it is possible that something with the odds of 1 in a million trillion could happen. If it happens only once in the whole age of the universe, it may still, statistically happen. Could water chance spontaneously into wine? Statistically very unlikely. Once in 4 billion eons? Ok. You call it a miracle at the hands of god. I call it a statistically unlikely perturbation easily explained by chemical dynamics. Hot pockets of gas in an old house? Some people like to call them caused by spirits of the dead. I call it an unlikely statistical probability of the Boltzmann distribution of gas velocities. You scream miracle, I scream science. The problem is that the human mind is not equipped to casually deal with very, very large numbers. It evolved to think on timescales of months or years, not millions of millenia. Thus when a statistical anomaly happens, it is easy to think that something amazing is happening, when that probably isn't the case. For a good rationalization of miracles as statistical anomalies, see Richard Dawkins' book The Blind Watchmaker.
Quoting Shadey:
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Amazing observation TA, animals with characteristics that are similar to each other will have similar DNA!
Actually, the more amazing observation is that animals with characteristics that are not similar at all can have similar DNA, or that out of all the possible molecules that could serve as the basis for a genetic code, every living creature on the planet has DNA comprised of the same 4 nucleotides and the same 20 basic amino acids. If that's not a compelling fact in suport of a common source for all life on the planet, I'm not sure what is.
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Shadey
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posted October 09, 2007 08:19 PM |
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Actually, the more amazing observation is that animals with characteristics that are not similar at all can have similar DNA, or that out of all the possible molecules that could serve as the basis for a genetic code, every living creature on the planet has DNA comprised of the same 4 nucleotides and the same 20 basic amino acids. If that's not a compelling fact in suport of a common source for all life on the planet, I'm not sure what is.
I agree the common source of all life on the planet is God's creation.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 10, 2007 08:54 AM |
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Amazing observation TA, animals with characteristics that are similar to each other will have similar DNA!
It's not my observation is it.
Nice shot though. Hope you have better luck next time, and hopefully you might have something remotely relevant to add.
@Mytical:
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I know what evolution is. It is a theory in which one species mutates to survive better in its environment. Sometimes these mutations are said to cause said species to 'evolve' into another species entirely. The initial process is supposed to have happened a long time ago (the ammount of time keeps growing larger it seems, though since the last time I checked they may have decided on a specific time.)
Nope.
Evolution is a continual process that is occuring today. There is no 'date' for when species evolved into others.
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Then it supposedly had another spurt durring the age of dinosaurs. I am not clear on this point, but there may have been a few more spurts..but then millions of years has passed and Evolution has taken a siesta I guess. Only explination why we are not seeing new species forming everywhere. It's on a convienent coffee break.
No again.
After dinosaurs saw the end of the Mesozoic era with the Cretaceous extinction, mammals, birds, insects and angiosperms evolved to dominate the land, not to mention the touchy subject of the noble hominids. So you've got that mixed up for a start.
But evolution doesn't go in 'spurts' like you think it does. In fact base mutations occur at a relatively constant rate, and well sexual reproduction and natural selection can only increase as population increases.
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Did evolution take place? I absolutely believe it did. Is the earth billions of years old? Eh that depends on IF carbon dating is accurate, and IF we are interpreting the data we see correctly if it is accurate. However, evolution does not preclude the divine. You ask why I say this. How I am so sure that there is something else out there? Personal experience. Of course, since it is not duplicatable, some will automatically dismiss it. I am not talking about almost dying and seeing a white light, I am not talking about some white robed man appearing and telling me to 'kill this people' or any such.
I am talking what I personally have seen, experienced, and know about first hand. See if there is nothing beyond this life, that means there are no spirits, yet I have seen not 1 but 4 in my life. Easy to discount that though. I could have been hallucinating or suffer brain damage.
I have touched a person, and that person stop hurting. I am not a doctor or nurse, but something happened. I felt their pain and they felt none. Yet when I TRY to do it, I can't. I've went to a funeral for somebody I did not know, and had to be rushed to the hospital because the sadness I experienced in a few minutes was crushing. The only reason I was there was because my friend knew the person, I had never met them in my life.
I have had dreams that have come true, in every detail. I've saved a life with that information. Again both these above can be easily dismissed as an abborhation, or deceit, or any number of 'logical' excuses. Somethings defy logic.
Now alone these things would not get me to believe in the divine. Even taken together, it would still not be enough to think there is a higher power that sometimes interfears. It is the everyday miricles I see. Somebody barely missing getting ran over, or shot, or whatever simply because they suddenly stopped or 'had a feeling'. When a child dies, and is brought back. When a parent 'knows' their child is in trouble without anybody telling them. Coincidence, that will be the arguement. Statistical probablilty, some will claim. Maybe that's right. I don't have the fogiest.
The data would suggest that coincidence and statistical probability will only get you so far. Then you have to start looking for other answers. "When everything else has been eliminated...".
I was just curious. Alot of people's ideas about the divine come from pure fantasy, and then they try and justify it.
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John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted October 10, 2007 09:21 AM |
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I understand what you're saying. You're just unfortunately wrong about evolution. The time scale is billions of years.
We have only begun to *think* about evolution in the last two decades, let alone observe every species to see if they can interbreed.
It's really not that strange at all that we haven't documented one in the lab.
@Corribus:
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I'm not quite sure that's an apple-to-apple analogy. Being punched in the face is physically damaging, so of course you would rue having that done to you every day, regardless of whether it happened to everybody else. The point is (following the next quote)
The point is that if you never had vision, and did not know that it was even possible to perceive light of visible wavelengths, you would not be able to make a value judgement about not being able to see. Your opinion here is colored by the fact that you DO know what it is to perceive light. It WOULD be hard being blind. But if you believed that that is just the way humans were, you wouldn't really be capable of being pissed about it. Being restricted to the ground by gravity is damn inconvenient at times, but I don't go around pissing and moaning because I don't have wings. Yet.
You could be right, I'm not taking a firm standing on this, but I think it could be damaging as you say, if for instance you kept bumping into walls, or got hit by a car...
You could argue that this hypothetical person stays in one room all their life but that's taking it out of context
Because the real reason for the metaphor is evil vs good. And all the evil in the religious sense that god doesn't take away
(so that as has been stated, we know what 'good' is)
is disease, pain in childbirth, toiling the land etc.
All our lives we've had these things. And these could be some of the most complained about things on the planet.
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The teleportation analogy was a little bit tongue in cheek, of course. I lament not being able to teleport also. But more seriously, a better example perhaps is whether you lament not being able to see in the infrared. Or to hear extremely high-pitched sounds. Or even better - humans do not have the sensory capability to do echolocation. At least, they do not have the capability like, for instance, bats do. Bats use a form of sonar to home in on their prey. It is very sophisticated and gives them a great sensory advantage. Certainly, if humans had this sensory ability, their lives might be easier. They do not, because they evolved this way, and have eyes instead. But still, most humans probably do not lament not having echolocation. And if humans DID have echolocation, a person without this ability through genetic mutation WOULD lament not having it, and would probably say things like "It would be very hard being without echolocation". But seeing as humans do not have echolocation, they do not lament having it, even if having it would make life easier. This is because we do not have a basis for comparison. The same goes for ultrasonic hearing or IR-vision. They would be nice, and life is harder - to some degree - without them. But because there is no basis for comparison, you cannot really lament not having it. If humans never evolved to have vision, it wouldn't really be possible to be upset about not having it. Of course, humans probably would have evolved some other sense instead.
(For the record, many blind people DO have a primitive sense of echolocation. Which is pretty cool if you ask me.
My comment about the teleportation was supposed to be a side comment, not an argument don't worry
And perhaps you can compare not having echolocation to pain and suffering of today's world, but I think they aren't quite on the same scale.
Maybe that's because I've never had echolocation
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John says to live above hell.
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