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mvassilev
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posted November 22, 2007 11:25 PM |
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I guess that's something like different Bigbangist sects... The Lawists (those who say that laws of physics existed before the Bang, like Slapzech) and the Chaosists (those who say that there were no laws of physics before the Bang, like MVas) 
I think you've got us backwards. I'm a Lawist, and he's a Chaosist.
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it's mass was infinite
Its mass couldn't have been infinite. That would mean that the universe's mass is infinite - which is clearly not the case. If it was, it would immediately collapse upon itself.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 23, 2007 09:02 AM |
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Or at least that's your belief. Which, I believe you'll agree, cannot be proven any more than a theist's beliefs.
How can one bang, just one bang, create everything? Was it an explosion, an implosion, what? What sort of event can turn utter chaos (however you define that term) into an infinite system, full of laws, indications, order, elements, etcetera - which even EXPANDS its infinity?
Scientists don't pretent to understand the big bang. Theoretical metaphysics may lead to speculation about it but that is not science.
Science is the theory of the big bang which was created in accordance to the observable universe.
Slapzech was right in saying that we can't know what happened before the big bang so any discussion on it is pure fantasy. That's what happened before the big bangs, such as how and why. We can only record what we observe, such as the expanding, finite universe (not expanding it's infinity) in accordance to deep space observations. On the simplest level, if a particle is expanding over time, if you extrapolate (for lack of a less douche word) that back far enough you get it back to one point. In terms of matter and energy, this is a singularity. Why this singularity was there no one can claim to know. Maybe God put it there, maybe it was a discarded birthday present from an alien in a parallel universe, and for this reason, the big bang isn't a religion.
As for time being created... time is merely our perception of chaos occuring (increasing entropy) in the universe, and is relative to the observer. Basically it means the universe goes from more ordered to a more disordered state and this is the direction in which we view time, such that we don't see rubble jumping back up into buildings (with planes flying out of them )
If the universe started out as a singularity and expanded, this is going from a more ordered state to a more disordered state and as such, time passes.
The big bang didn't 'create' time.
In fact, it didn't 'create' anything. Leave the creators to the gods and carpenters 
@mvass:Quote:
Its mass couldn't have been infinite. That would mean that the universe's mass is infinite - which is clearly not the case. If it was, it would immediately collapse upon itself.
True. A singularity is, however, infinitely dense.
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John says to live above hell.
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Gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted November 23, 2007 09:35 AM |
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Big bang is 1% important...god made the earth,the ubication is perfect,not so close to the sun,not so far,excellent for keep the life,you can see creation everywhere not only the universe....Here on the earth you can see the beauty of the nature a field, a lake near to a mountain or so many things you can imagine,for example the food,fruits;why they have that pretty color and that good taste and why there is alot of them for everyone on the earth,how a very small seed can become that,then the vegetables too,the earth gives us all we need,with the animals too,like their meat,the man made clothes with their leather or wool,and still doing it,etc.Its all made for be balanced and i can see something like it was really designed.
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Slapzech
Adventuring Hero
that didn't vote for Kaczynski
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posted November 23, 2007 10:14 AM |
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Edited by Slapzech at 10:32, 23 Nov 2007.
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Its mass couldn't have been infinite. That would mean that the universe's mass is infinite - which is clearly not the case. If it was, it would immediately collapse upon itself.
Let's take a closer look what lurks behind the event horizon - a thing which we call singularity. This is the true deity of the black hole. A huge mass, packed into very small space.
(For those who want to see it better - We could create a black hole from Earth, but only when we would compress the entire planet down to the size of a head of the needle).
Now imagine the whole mass of the universe compressed up to the point where it does not have a space. Literally. Height, lenght, depth, and every other dimension equals zero. Not 0,000000001. Not 0,000000000000000000000000001. ZERO. In those conditions the mass of such a thing will be infinite.
Also - after the big bang the universe expands and will expand.
That is the efect of dimensions beeing created and the blast itself.
Gravity itself is simply not strong enough to overpower the inflation.
[edit]
about density:
There was a time in the evolution of the universe that one cubic centimeter contained 1.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 tons (correct me if I made a mistake, there should be 72 zero's)
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted November 23, 2007 11:09 AM |
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That's why I do not asocciate with neither those who defy the existance of god, nor with the ones who claim he exist.
Hey, we're on the same side then
Yea, I mixed you up a bit, I wanted to say that MVas is lawist and Slapz chaosist.  Hey, we all make mistakes.
Something just crossed my mind. What if God, in the first place, made only the Earth, and then as we grow smarter and explore things around us he makes more and more stuff so that there's always something too hard and far for us to understand? Just to piss us off. I wouldn't be surprised.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Slapzech
Adventuring Hero
that didn't vote for Kaczynski
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posted November 23, 2007 11:34 AM |
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That's why I do not asocciate with neither those who defy the existance of god, nor with the ones who claim he exist.
Hey, we're on the same side then
Yea, I mixed you up a bit, I wanted to say that MVas is lawist and Slapz chaosist. Hey, we all make mistakes.
Something just crossed my mind. What if God, in the first place, made only the Earth, and then as we grow smarter and explore things around us he makes more and more stuff so that there's always something too hard and far for us to understand? Just to piss us off. I wouldn't be surprised.
Lmao
I'd love to have a god with such sense of humor.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2007 03:01 PM |
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(For those who want to see it better - We could create a black hole from Earth, but only when we would compress the entire planet down to the size of a head of the needle).
Yes, but a black hole isn't infinitely small.
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Now imagine the whole mass of the universe compressed up to the point where it does not have a space. Literally. Height, lenght, depth, and every other dimension equals zero. Not 0,000000001. Not 0,000000000000000000000000001. ZERO. In those conditions the mass of such a thing will be infinite.
Of course, because you would be dividing by zero, which is impossible. It can be approaching zero, but it can't be zero.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Slapzech
Adventuring Hero
that didn't vote for Kaczynski
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posted November 23, 2007 04:47 PM |
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Of course, because you would be dividing by zero, which is impossible. It can be approaching zero, but it can't be zero.
Aaaah... but exacly this is the problem of the discussion.
Lenght, dept, hight, time (and any other dimension, up to all 11 as some scientists state)- all were created in the big bang.
They exist from that event forward.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2007 05:01 PM |
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(and any other dimension, up to all 11 as some scientists state)
11 dimenisons? Are you talking about string theory? String theory isn't even science. There is nothing to back it up, even string theorists admit that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Moonlith
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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 23, 2007 05:06 PM |
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Here's my theory
As black holes grow and grow and suck more and more matter to their centre, it will reach a point where everything in the universe is sucked to 1 point, resulting in yet a new big bang A repeating cycle.
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Slapzech
Adventuring Hero
that didn't vote for Kaczynski
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posted November 23, 2007 05:45 PM |
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Edited by Slapzech at 17:47, 23 Nov 2007.
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(and any other dimension, up to all 11 as some scientists state)
11 dimenisons? Are you talking about string theory? String theory isn't even science. There is nothing to back it up, even string theorists admit that.
I'm not one of the String Theory enthusiasts.
I simply made a note that some people are.
Yet if there really are no proofs - I can't tell, as I don't really investigated the matter of this theory much.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2007 06:12 PM |
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As black holes grow and grow and suck more and more matter to their centre, it will reach a point where everything in the universe is sucked to 1 point, resulting in yet a new big bang A repeating cycle.
See, that's what I used to think, but it appears that the universe's expansion is accelerating due to "dark energy", and if it were to collapse upon itself, then the expansion would at least be slowing down. But then I thought that the amount of black holes will increase, so the expansion will eventually stop accelerating, stop, and the universe will collapse upon itself after all. So I actually agree with what you said, it's just more complicated than what you say.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 24, 2007 06:06 AM |
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Unless we have a big rip before that can happen
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John says to live above hell.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 24, 2007 01:44 PM |
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LOL @ you guys. You're all just guessing and you take it so seriously.
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I'm a Lawist, and he's a Chaosist.
I'm a don't-carist. A don't-carist is not the same as a who-carist?. A don't-carist is more of a subset of a statementist, whereas a who-carist? is a subset of a questionist. But I suppose just due the fact that I'm posting this, I have some care-a-little-bitist tendencies in me.
edit: OK, I've heard there is some confusion about this, so I want to clarify.
The classifications stated above are my own, but some modern scholars point out that who-carists? really belong to the rhetorical-questionist school of thought, rather than the questionist school of thought. The rhetorical-questionists share a lot of theology with the statementists. This explains why the don't-carists and the who-carists? seem to have much more in common than the opposing schools of statementists and questionists might otherwise suggest.
I hope this helps.
just as a point of information, my friend has made a branch of Christianity... they are called masterbationists!
the name says it all really.
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TheDeath
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posted November 24, 2007 07:07 PM |
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See, that's what I used to think, but it appears that the universe's expansion is accelerating due to "dark energy", and if it were to collapse upon itself, then the expansion would at least be slowing down.
What's funny is that, while "dark energy" has absolutely no proof than just to fill the 'gaps' in explanations (i.e why is the Universe expanding?), "God" is considered by the atheists much more 'impractical', I wonder why?
The Universe is accelerating due to God.
is this phrase any less convincing (I don't say that I necessarily believe this, but it's only an analogy).
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 25, 2007 01:27 AM |
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What's funny is that, while "dark energy" has absolutely no proof than just to fill the 'gaps' in explanations (i.e why is the Universe expanding?), "God" is considered by the atheists much more 'impractical', I wonder why?
The Universe is accelerating due to God.
is this phrase any less convincing (I don't say that I necessarily believe this, but it's only an analogy).
Maybe God is dark energy.
A difference is, saying "God did it." benefits no-one.
Dark energy is not proven but there is evidence of it through indirect observation. It is definitive and potentially testable. God, on the other hand, is merely... what?
You say it could be god doing it.
Then the scientist would say, what is god then?
God is, well, someone who could do that.
So in other words god would be defined as the very observation, which would achieve nothing.
That doesn't help anyone further understand the universe.
It doesn't fit the bill unless you say it does through "
The Universe is accelerating due to God." bang. done.
That is why god is more 'impractical'.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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Moonlith
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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 25, 2007 01:59 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 02:00, 25 Nov 2007.
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Big bang is 1% important...god made the earth,the ubication is perfect,not so close to the sun,not so far,excellent for keep the life,you can see creation everywhere not only the universe....Here on the earth you can see the beauty of the nature a field, a lake near to a mountain or so many things you can imagine,for example the food,fruits;why they have that pretty color and that good taste and why there is alot of them for everyone on the earth,how a very small seed can become that,then the vegetables too,the earth gives us all we need,with the animals too,like their meat,the man made clothes with their leather or wool,and still doing it,etc.Its all made for be balanced and i can see something like it was really designed.
So if I understand correctly, God also put dinosaur bones into the earth because he knew some obvious retards where gonna scream "Evolutiontheory!" and he put those bones there to test us in our faith in him, right?
Here's a little something I want to confront you with:
Loooong ago, some rebel screamed the earth was round. The religious folk all screamed that that was absolute nonesense, that god made the earth flat, etc.
As it turns out, they were proven wrong. And since, the church accepts the earth is round (I thought God himself had said he made the earth flat?). Well anyway:
Why do you think God created everything? And don't just say because the bible and all the priests say so - the bible and all the priests also said the earth was flat.
Consider this my final shot in seeing if intelligent discussion is possible with you folk.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 25, 2007 02:48 AM |
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@Gallow:
Quote:
Big bang is 1% important...god made the earth,the ubication is perfect,not so close to the sun,not so far,excellent for keep the life,you can see creation everywhere not only the universe....Here on the earth you can see the beauty of the nature a field, a lake near to a mountain or so many things you can imagine,for example the food,fruits;why they have that pretty color and that good taste and why there is alot of them for everyone on the earth,how a very small seed can become that,then the vegetables too,the earth gives us all we need,with the animals too,like their meat,the man made clothes with their leather or wool,and still doing it,etc.Its all made for be balanced and i can see something like it was really designed.
Sure the world is intelligently designed, as are humans.
We are just like a watch, and god is the all powerful and all knowing watch maker.
We are a watch that:
-Begins to stink if you don't wash it constantly
-Doesn't function for about 8 hours a day
-Suffers from diseases and deformities that often prevent it from functioning
-Has some of the most important parts called the "scrotum" attached on the outside, where it is extremely vulnerable and exposed
-need to feed it with constant nutrition and things called "vitamins", which it cannot make for itself
-if it gets too cold, it will get "frostbite" and parts will fall off
-a disgusting film called "plaque" builds up on it's case that needs to be constantly washed off
-needs to be powered by the exact amount every day. if you give it too much, it will balloon up and become "obese", appear grotesque and not function properly. if you do not give it enough, it will also stop functioning
-has a nine month delivery time when you first get a new one, that can often result in a "miscarriage" or have serious defects such as "down syndrome"
-when you get a new one you have no idea what it will be like. some are beautiful, some are ugly, some do not even work. some will be extremely sophisticated and "intelligent", some will merely do as they are supposed to in mediocrity, and some will suffer from what's called "below average IQ" and not function at its required level. you take what you get, fair or not
This watch is obviously absurd, and the watchmaker is obviously a completely insane, malicious, nutcase.
God works in mysterious ways? No, God should be locked up!
There are a multitude of things that do not make ANY sense, except from an evolutionary perspective.
____________
John says to live above hell.
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roy-algriffin
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Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 25, 2007 06:28 AM |
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Not really. In theory with evoloution we would have stopped sleeping/needing food etc because they are not actually useful for us to do.
But Both sides will quote that it makes sense because were not perfect methinks.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted November 25, 2007 11:37 AM |
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Well god created us so any imperfections are his fault.
And all of those things can be explained through evolution, you're thinking of natural selection. Evolution, unlike a god, does not pick and choose traits it thinks would be suitable. If it did, I would agree with you, that it is stupid. But it doesn't. Living things need food and sleep to sustain themselves in the natural, evolving world, and stopping sleeping or eating would, contrary to your statement, NOT put them at a selective advantage.
Yet if we were designed, why not just not give us that need in the first place... 
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John says to live above hell.
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