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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 10, 2007 02:46 PM |
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Edited by Sanyu at 14:47, 10 Apr 2007.
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Huh? Are you joking? While Fortress creatures can have incredibly high defense, their other stats like att and initiative are totally crappy, an average of 10 initiative is bad... this places them lowest along with Necropolis... runemage is too balanced that it becomes a problem. Its so-so spellpower and knowledge only means creatures like familiars can "slurp it all up" and dungeon heroes can laugh at their pathetic spells...not specialised in attack worsens the case as their creatures really need that few points of attack. Of course, I do agree that their creatures take ages to whittle down and guard thingy which adds a thousand or so shieldguards to their towns is quite strong.
Why dungeon laugh, it is fortress that will laugh, go for light, fortress is always better with light not destructive, and not to mention their imba runes, with a litte atk boosting arties, they are crazy, even havens with paladins are nothing. Try it, then you'll know. Many people think that fortress are weak because they never use it intensively.
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Wyngaal is bugged, that's why he's so powerful. Inferno needs no rebalancing
He's not bugged, it's his special, all his creatures will strike first except treants, it's okay if they don't score lucky atk or critical hit, worst if they score both, but wyngraal is late game hero, and at late game, his luck usually 3 or 5, not to mention his atk boosting arties and his another arties, wyngraal is one of pure offensive sylvan hero and he is one of sylvan's best hero, even ossir is second to him at late game. Try sylvan and you'll know, if you like inferno, then your most fave hero will be wyngraal, his gameplay at battlefield is similar with inferno, except he is with light magic and have good def and those crazy avenger and luck, sure avenger is hard, but once you master it, it's good.
Inferno need rebalance, they're okay against all except dark magic, what can you do againts dark magic? I'd like to hear any solution.
And why nival make the gated stacks need to wait 1 turn to act, it make gating less powerful as it should be. It's better to make the gating stacks still spend 1 turn without swift gating, but the gated creatures can act immediately, with swift gating, the gating creatures only spend 50% initiative to gate.
Inferno also the only faction that need very hard thinking without Deleb and Grok, nebiros need a little, alastor too, the rest? you must think very damn hard, in hard mode or heroic, normal mode has nothing to do with hard thinking.
I see many way with other factions to beat heroic mode, but it's impossible with inferno if you're not lucky (no deleb), even grok has little chance in heroic.
So, if anyone here have very good strategy with inferno (no deleb), i would like to hear it, of course in another topic, it's a good idea to discuss inferno tactics, since it seems inferno is the least liked town. I almost give up with this town.
Yes I've tried Fortress before. Indeed they are powerful during endgame but it is never as easy as using Inferno. Yea they have runes, but that is to make up for their super-weaknesses. And take into account that that is their racial ability. All factions have strong racial abilities. Think this way. Gating versus runes. They're about the same, I won't deny. But inferno creatures totally rule! Fortress creatures are weak. Why else do you think Nival will give Fortress such a strong town guard? Simple. It pales with comparison if it was given to another faction. Imagine fighting 2000 familiars, master gremlins, sprites... -500 mana, capacity to shoot and resurrect 400 steel golems, no retaliation... By the way, swift gating reduces to 25% of a turn, not 50%. And you say other than Grok, Alastor, Deleb and Nebiros...that's quite a lot of heroes already. In other factions, the number of good heroes you can choose from is around the same. 4 is a lot already.
And don't just give up in it yet. We've already lost Doomforge
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 10, 2007 03:03 PM |
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Fortress is really powerfull... maybe a little overpowered in endgame. Inferno on the other hand doesn't shine very much, maybe only against Haven... Gating is nice but compared to the runes it is weaker... for several reasons :
1. Runes have instant effect, and don't waste initiative from your troops.. Gating wastes some initiative and the gated stacks come after a while
2. some runes can give troops +100% damage , +100% speed , 6 headed attack(alot of aditional damage) and so on, while gating only provides +~75% gated cretures on average ( lucky gatings + unlucky gatings rounded)
3. runes can be used several times
Also Dwarven troops aren't worse if you compare them to the infernals... Magma Dragons are way better than Archdevils, and so are Thanes compared to Pit Lords.
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 10, 2007 03:37 PM |
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Fortress is really powerfull... maybe a little overpowered in endgame. Inferno on the other hand doesn't shine very much, maybe only against Haven... Gating is nice but compared to the runes it is weaker... for several reasons :
1. Runes have instant effect, and don't waste initiative from your troops.. Gating wastes some initiative and the gated stacks come after a while
2. some runes can give troops +100% damage , +100% speed , 6 headed attack(alot of aditional damage) and so on, while gating only provides +~75% gated cretures on average ( lucky gatings + unlucky gatings rounded)
3. runes can be used several times
Also Dwarven troops aren't worse if you compare them to the infernals... Magma Dragons are way better than Archdevils, and so are Thanes compared to Pit Lords.
Pit lords are as good imo. it's just that their usefulness is not so obvious. so that leaves one fortress creature better. 6 is to 1.
While +100% speed rocks, I don't see anything powerful about all the other runes. they are mostly wasted on the gated creatures.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2007 07:01 PM |
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Haven with paladins is never nothing, and there is no such force that can hit harder than paladins with triple growth due to training, packed with light spells and jousting at full distance. No kind of rune can reproduce that effect.
Indeed, but runes counter paladins easily, use resurection runes twice at all your creatures, rune of charge also good choice, i'm sure when the first time all the creatures use resurrection runes, haven's paladins has gone, the rest of the unit doesn't matter, because you still has one chance to use resurrection to all creatures again, also paladins can be easily blocked by rune of charge, that's why i say this rune is one of the godly runes, thane with this runes can easily target all enemies creatures. Fortress endgame > haven end game, but i admit only haven that can match fortress at late game thanks to training, or necro and inferno with ultimate skill (but that's impossible). But haven has hard early game compared to fortress.
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Use your dark magic Fight fire with fire. It's not likely your enemy has dark and light at once most of the time. Against necropolis, unfortunately, most dark spells are worthless, including the puppet master, so inferno<necropolis.
True, but there is still necro.
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I will try to gather all the tips I can and write something in a new topic where we can discuss any possible way of playing inferno competetively. Maybe we'll figure out something.
May those tips bring enlightment to inferno.
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Yes I've tried Fortress before. Indeed they are powerful during endgame but it is never as easy as using Inferno. Yea they have runes, but that is to make up for their super-weaknesses. And take into account that that is their racial ability. All factions have strong racial abilities. Think this way. Gating versus runes. They're about the same, I won't deny. But inferno creatures totally rule! Fortress creatures are weak. Why else do you think Nival will give Fortress such a strong town guard? Simple. It pales with comparison if it was given to another faction. Imagine fighting 2000 familiars, master gremlins, sprites... -500 mana, capacity to shoot and resurrect 400 steel golems, no retaliation... By the way, swift gating reduces to 25% of a turn, not 50%. And you say other than Grok, Alastor, Deleb and Nebiros...that's quite a lot of heroes already. In other factions, the number of good heroes you can choose from is around the same. 4 is a lot already.
And don't just give up in it yet. We've already lost Doomforge
Indeed, fortress units are weak at their offence ability, i mean not only their special, their stats also weak, that's why they have imba runes, but i admit that only very few runes which is good both in practice and in paper, dwarf also have that crazy def and hp, and some very good perks that almost can match inferno perks.
Fortress early game are far much easier than inferno, even fortress are quicker than deleb with defender specialist, and cheaper.
Sure dwarf with destructive cannot match inferno, but the light ones can, maybe they tie with inferno, because inferno also one of the strongest at late game (no dark please). The only downfall of inferno is that they have very bad start, even with deleb, dwarf defender specialist is better in powercreeping, if you can match dwarf powercreeping hero and reach late game, inferno has a good chance, even they use runes and light, but beware of their arties.
But, againts dwarf at late game, i find inferno are better than haven (with their paladins).
About swift gating, yeah it reduce to 25% now, because nival change the initiative wasted by gating stacks to 50%, not 100%, but i wish that the gating stacks still waste 100% initiative but the gated stacks can act immediately after their arrival. Also, it's nice if the gated stacks can be phantom forced like in the early patch, and inferno become one of the strongest faction 
Yeah, so sad that we lost doomforge. I hope the next expansion brings good thing to inferno.
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Fortress is really powerfull... maybe a little overpowered in endgame. Inferno on the other hand doesn't shine very much, maybe only against Haven... Gating is nice but compared to the runes it is weaker... for several reasons :
1. Runes have instant effect, and don't waste initiative from your troops.. Gating wastes some initiative and the gated stacks come after a while
2. some runes can give troops +100% damage , +100% speed , 6 headed attack(alot of aditional damage) and so on, while gating only provides +~75% gated cretures on average ( lucky gatings + unlucky gatings rounded)
3. runes can be used several times
Also Dwarven troops aren't worse if you compare them to the infernals... Magma Dragons are way better than Archdevils, and so are Thanes compared to Pit Lords.
No, inferno shine againts all except necro, even without deleb, although it needs a little thinking.
About the runes vs gating, i must say that gating is better, inferno is one of the faction that can match dwarf at late game beside necro and haven. Rune + Absolute protection never stand a chance againts Urgash Call, the mighty Absolute luck will be defeated by Absolute protection, Absolute luck become normal atk, but Urgash call still a lucky atk if the real stack and the gated stack both deal lucky atk, and at late game inferno luck usually 5, and their runes even can't help.
Gating take 25% turn, and the gated stack need to wait 1 turn to atk, but rune also doesn't make any difference, rune never waste initiative, but to use it, you must wait the dwarf creatures to act, but their creatures have very crap initiative, besides, most of the runes are useless, even those runes that have very godly description, examples: runes that +100%atk and def, runes that allow a stack to use abilities like hydra's six headed attack, rune of twice atk, runes of elemental immunity, those runes indeed powerful, but only in paper, their practice is very different, only very few runes that is good enough both at practice and paper, examples: rune of charge, rune of resurrection, the rest of the runes are too dependant on some situation, in other words, very situational.
Even fortress unit buffed with runes cannot match inferno units which many people consider them very weak next to necro, Sanyu is right about dwarf units, try dwarf and you'll find that they're weak enough even with runes, but the result is different if you use light magic, with it, inferno is defeated, but if inferno has Urgash Call, dwarf is defeated, even with their Absolute Protection.
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Pit lords are as good imo. it's just that their usefulness is not so obvious. so that leaves one fortress creature better. 6 is to 1.
While +100% speed rocks, I don't see anything powerful about all the other runes. they are mostly wasted on the gated creatures.
Right, only few runes which i consider good both at practice and paper. Only rune of charge and resurrection, the rest are craps, they're only good at paper, if you don't believe me, try it yourself , use dwarf.
Pit lords are better than Warlords, sure Warlords special is good, but it's also only good in paper, besides, Warlords with rune still a crap, because they have very little damage and mediocre atk, worst, they're buffed with heroes that has almost no atk (dwarven heroes), it is true that his main target suffer double damage (don't know why), but their dmg is far from good, especially his chain lightning, because chain lightning use his real damage which is weak(not doubled). But it's different if they buffed with light magic and runes of course, without those buff, all fortress units are crap. Never go destructive with fortress, they sucks.
I admit that not all runes are imba, most are craps, and dwarf only shine with runes and light magic, runes itself doesn't make any big difference. They can make big difference if covered by light magic and nice arties that boost atk, and of course initiative boosting arties.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 10, 2007 09:10 PM |
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Chaos Dragon: Triple growth for paladins with jousting and 4-5 luck means every stack they touch is instantly DEAD and you can't use runes on something that already has died. If I understand correct, you've never seen a clever haven player in the strict endgame. I swear, even magma dragons would probably fall to 1 hit!
Simple example: Double (not triple!) paladins with a few weeks of plague/disease here and there (!) and divided into two stacks (!!!!) could still kill ALL the hydras I've acumulated throught the whole game.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 10, 2007 09:18 PM |
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In my last game vs heaven Doughal killed all my hydras with his marksmen in one blow  . It was lucky hit so he would have killed exactly twice that many if i had more hydras
What do you mean rest runes are craps? Have you played duel Ebba? I've won game with razzak when i was her because only move his golems had was just after teleport assault and you say that is crap? I did the same with titans. Yeah, pure crap. Im not going to describe every rune here but all are good(if you can use them).
In real game however, there are many other factors and there may be situation that your runes won't do much (i.e. when your stck is dead after first blow) but please don't say that they are crap.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 10, 2007 10:32 PM |
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Alright seriously which are the crappy runes? I had played enough with the dwarves back in 2.0 to be able to counter that. Of course I play with luck so the results may be a lot different.
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Rune of charge*Great.
Rune of berserking*Easy to use, guaranteed effect-especially vs packed formations.
Rune of Exorcism*Great-can save you from curses even if you don't have light magic.
Rune of Magic Control*Hmm, not always applicable.
Rune of Elemental Immunity*Only vs warlocks I guess.
Rune of Etherealness*Great-that is when it triggers.
Rune of Resurrection*No comment.
Rune of Thunderclap*Gotta love this!
Rune of Battle Rage*One of the best effects...
Rune of Dragonform*Good for berserkers and warlords.
Now out of these what more did you expect? They just aid you and they do a pretty good job at it. They can disrupt enemy strategies or save you from tight spots just like that. As far as I'm concerned there aren't really bad combinations in what you'll get, except I'd rather have rune of battlerage any time. Dwarves aren't damage dealers but instead hit multiple stacks, preserve their units or stun enemies and that's good enough for me.
No, what I say is not from paper.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 12:24 PM |
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Yea most runes are not that good, I won't use strong words like crap in forums
Truthfully, only a few runes rock. Rune of charge is perhaps the best yet it is a level 1 rune. Blackbear riders are guaranteed a "paw strike" with it and beserkers can cross in one round to do berserk attack. Rune of resurrection is cool since it resurrects even more with higher loss. Perfect way to frighten your enemy. Rune of thunderclap is only nice when used with Skirmishers or Thanes...The other runes are kinda weak...rune of exorcism is useless in the sense that it cannot dispel powerful effects like puppet master, frenzy or blindness. Sure, it can take away confusion suffering etc but opponent hero just need to cast it mass again and you cannot use it anymore (unless you refresh=> waste of hero's turn)
Rune of battlerage rarely allows you to hit more than two enemies. Rune of beserking is great but dwarves low speed initiative renders it less useful.
All the other runes are totally useless.
@Chaosdragon
Agree with most of what you said but I don't understand why dwarves with light magic rocks so much...to the extent that they can beat Inferno, I still doubt, perhaps someone should play Fortress against me and win me to prove me wrong. Care to explain?
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 03:46 PM |
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Chaos Dragon: Triple growth for paladins with jousting and 4-5 luck means every stack they touch is instantly DEAD and you can't use runes on something that already has died. If I understand correct, you've never seen a clever haven player in the strict endgame. I swear, even magma dragons would probably fall to 1 hit!
That is because you allow those paladins to joust your stacks. Besides, i say that arties count, especially the initiative boosting arties, with it, use rune of charge at your warlords then strike in front of their paladins, the main target suffer double damage, so witk lucky atk it's quadraple dmg to paladins, arties count, so, pally will be reduced to 1/4 if not die. The rest of the unit cannot blow all your unit with one hit even they score lucky atk. And why my magma would fall if the one hit killer has fallen. I repeat, its fortress againts haven.
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What do you mean rest runes are craps? Have you played duel Ebba? I've won game with razzak when i was her because only move his golems had was just after teleport assault and you say that is crap? I did the same with titans. Yeah, pure crap. Im not going to describe every rune here but all are good(if you can use them).
In real game however, there are many other factors and there may be situation that your runes won't do much (i.e. when your stck is dead after first blow) but please don't say that they are crap.
Duel with dwarf cannot be compared with mp or single games, it's too different. I never like duel, it is so unoriginal, i like gathering my own troops and my own arties and my own runes from zero rather than immediately have all of them.
Yeah you're right, craps are too extreme.
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Alright seriously which are the crappy runes? I had played enough with the dwarves back in 2.0 to be able to counter that. Of course I play with luck so the results may be a lot different.
Here:
Rune of charge*Great.
Rune of berserking*Easy to use, guaranteed effect-especially vs packed formations.
Rune of Exorcism*Great-can save you from curses even if you don't have light magic.
Rune of Magic Control*Hmm, not always applicable.
Rune of Elemental Immunity*Only vs warlocks I guess.
Rune of Etherealness*Great-that is when it triggers.
Rune of Resurrection*No comment.
Rune of Thunderclap*Gotta love this!
Rune of Battle Rage*One of the best effects...
Rune of Dragonform*Good for berserkers and warlords.
Now out of these what more did you expect? They just aid you and they do a pretty good job at it. They can disrupt enemy strategies or save you from tight spots just like that. As far as I'm concerned there aren't really bad combinations in what you'll get, except I'd rather have rune of battlerage any time. Dwarves aren't damage dealers but instead hit multiple stacks, preserve their units or stun enemies and that's good enough for me.
No, what I say is not from paper.
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Charge: great, i agreed.
Beserking: too late to use it if they die by enemies lucky first strike, dwarf def is not that high, only slightly high than haven, and that def won't save any dwarf unit except magma from fall easily. It is one of the runes that is very situational.
Exorcism: never use this, i always go with light magic.
Magic control: almost never had any condition that makes this rune as a good rune.
Elemental immunity: useless vs warlock, they have irresistible magic. However, it is a life saver for destructive dwarf. Still, a good rune.
Etherealness: it's too dependant on chance, not that good.
Resurrection: One of the best. Still can be countered with one hit kill from faction that is faster than dwarf (ex: haven), if not careful.
Battle rage: effect on paper is good, however many player can easily avoid many situation that makes this rune functional. One of the runes that's too dependant on situation. Againts fast faction, this rune is useless, i fear this rune than all other runes when the first time i read its description because that time i still like inferno, and inferno will be destroyed so easily by this rune, especially late game, but, after i try this rune, the practice is so different than its godly description, the only creatures that benefit from this runes are magma dragons, the rest will never find this rune helpful, warlords? no, they already have their good special which is far better than this rune, another cratures are too slow (i mean initiative, speed can be boosted by charge rune) to use this before your enemy avoid many condition that allow your dwarf weak atk creatures to attack more than 2 stacks, even if they succeed, their dmg is not that good. Then i find out that this rune can be easily countered by all faction, even inferno can counter this rune easily.
Dragonform: One of the best, still, againts fast faction, it's not that great, its purpose is to make your already reduced stack as strong as full stack if you fight againts high atk fast faction, againts slow faction, they'll be crushed easily. One of good rune.
Runes that is useful regardless the condition: Charge, resurrection (still a little dependant) , dragonform (still a little dependant).
That's why i say that most of the runes are not that useful compared to their description, only 30% of them that's good.
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Yea most runes are not that good, I won't use strong words like crap in forums
Truthfully, only a few runes rock. Rune of charge is perhaps the best yet it is a level 1 rune. Blackbear riders are guaranteed a "paw strike" with it and beserkers can cross in one round to do berserk attack. Rune of resurrection is cool since it resurrects even more with higher loss. Perfect way to frighten your enemy. Rune of thunderclap is only nice when used with Skirmishers or Thanes...The other runes are kinda weak...rune of exorcism is useless in the sense that it cannot dispel powerful effects like puppet master, frenzy or blindness. Sure, it can take away confusion suffering etc but opponent hero just need to cast it mass again and you cannot use it anymore (unless you refresh=> waste of hero's turn)
Rune of battlerage rarely allows you to hit more than two enemies. Rune of beserking is great but dwarves low speed initiative renders it less useful.
All the other runes are totally useless.
Right, crap seems too extreme.
I have to agreed at all your comments, especially about rune of charge being the best runes yet it's lv 1 rune, yeah, that is one of the best use of charge rune, your bear rider. Battle rage can be easily avoided as explained above, that makes this rune rarely hits more than one stacks, but it will hit more than one stack with magma dragons, use this on warlords if necessary to allow them to hit all enemies stack even if they're spread, but the chance is too rare, unless your enemies are unlucky or they're fool, with magma, this rune also become double edged sword (i mean your magma+ battle rage), exorcism is waste of turn (if you refresh it), besides, better go with light magic, beserking? what if your stack already 1/4 of its full number, it's useless, worst if all of them already fall.
Agreed 100% with you.
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@Chaosdragon
Agree with most of what you said but I don't understand why dwarves with light magic rocks so much...to the extent that they can beat Inferno, I still doubt, perhaps someone should play Fortress against me and win me to prove me wrong. Care to explain?
No, i say they also need arties, and also runes, not only with light magic, they'll still lost if they only go with light and runes, however their chance not that bad (50-50), if they only go with runes, they'll be defeated 100%, it's the same if they go with light magic only, but, with both of those things, their chance become 50-50, or maybe higher, compared with if you go with destructive, eat those puppet, frenzy, blind, and their kin.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 04:09 PM |
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That is because you allow those paladins to joust your stacks. Besides, i say that arties count, especially the initiative boosting arties, with it, use rune of charge at your warlords then strike in front of their paladins, the main target suffer double damage, so witk lucky atk it's quadraple dmg to paladins, arties count, so, pally will be reduced to 1/4 if not die. The rest of the unit cannot blow all your unit with one hit even they score lucky atk. And why my magma would fall if the one hit killer has fallen. I repeat, its fortress againts haven.
My dear friend, warlords do little damage to single target even with their lightning strike, and dwarven heroes lack ATT. Their power lies in the ability to hit many units; they will never kill 3/4 paladins, lol! Besides, paladins are one of the faster units in the game (12 init) so how can you prevent them for charging? In most cases you can't, since they go first. Haven has also marksmen, griffins and archangels which can do huge damage; paladins are jut their top killer. Still, batte diving irina griffins with 5 morale will cut through your army like a hot knife through butter, even without paladins : O
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Beserking: too late to use it if they die by enemies lucky first strike, dwarf def is not that high, only slightly high than haven
No my good sir, dwarves' def is lower than haven's def:
Knight gets 45%def.
Runelord gets 30%def.
And the rune is not "too late to use", it's the best rune there is, covering up very poor damage of dwarven units. YOu want first turn kills? With what, with army that has poor attack, lowest damage in game (statistically), and with max init 12 at berserkers? If you want first turn kills, go for sylvan. Dwarves are meant to stall (def. formation, preparation), activate multiple runes, get buffed by light magic and demolish everything around.
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Exorcism: never use this, i always go with light magic.
And you get cleansing every time? I doubt it.
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Elemental immunity: useless vs warlock, they have irresistible magic. However, it is a life saver for destructive dwarf. Still, a good rune.
Sure, -50% damage versus an implosion that kills every stack in one hit is bad, right?
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Dragonform: One of the best, still, againts fast faction, it's not that great, its purpose is to make your already reduced stack as strong as full stack if you fight againts high atk fast faction, againts slow faction, they'll be crushed easily. One of good rune.
Bad rune to me, increases the att and def without taking hero attack/def or artifacts into consideration, so the effect is not that great.
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beserkers can cross in one round to do berserk attack.
If you activate rune of charge when they are still on your side, they will attack your own units since they are closer.. You can't use rune of charge+battlefrenzy in 1st turn unless you want to kill yourself. They can charge without battlefrenzy, yes, but without it, their damage is pitiful.
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Rune of battlerage rarely allows you to hit more than two enemies.
Warlords with their teleport can do it most of the time, and even 2 enemies hit still means double damage, so it's well worth it, ey?
regards
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 11, 2007 04:36 PM |
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hehe ... not having played a single multi player game with the dwarfs(not in my available clan choice  ) , only some duels , I can say runes are really powerfull, and the whole dwarven faction is really powerfull! You totally don't understand the game dinamics if you say most runes are crap, or that destructive magic is bad for the dwarfs...
On the long run, Light Magic is optimal of course, but in rushier situations Destructive proves to be alot better. Use Rune of Elemental imunity on your troops , and then Armageddon + Ignite the opponent to death ! Also Rune of Dragon Form could be used instead, but it is not as good!
Rune of Battle Rage is a godly rune. 6 headed attack is very easy to obtain especially for large creature imho, but apart from that you get no enemy retaliation for your creature and that is great too!
Also taking out the Magma Dragons in one hit is a dream ... Even if you train all your priests to paladins it won't be enough ! The Magma's are just too tough ... Add to that the big defense of the RuneMage, the defense skill , and other defensive perks , and you have the picture of a rock solid creature that won't leave the battlefield soon. Taking out Deep Hydras led by a Warlock is a different story to taking out Magmas led by a RuneMage!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 11, 2007 04:38 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:40, 11 Apr 2007.
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If you activate rune of charge when they are still on your side, they will attack your own units since they are closer..
Warlords with their teleport can do it most of the time, and even 2 enemies hit still means double damage, so it's well worth it, ey?
Actually they attack allies only when there are no enemies in reach. They will attack enemies even if they are far.
Yes but:
Regular attack-multiple(hopefully) target lightning damage.
Battlerage-[multiple(hopefully) target lightning damage] x the number of units you attack and are adjacent.
Also there will be units that are not adjacent. To the left, right and up for instance. If you have refreshed a rune of thunderclap you can potentially attack and stun them all. Since the warlords are big chances are that where they'll teleport they will have more than one stacks near them.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 04:42 PM |
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I never said warlords are bad or something, they are just not single-stack killers: They are meant to do damage to multiple units, and abuse many rune effects to maximum. Anyways, they can't kill double/triplegrowth paladins with one hit, no way.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 06:01 PM |
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Warlord main target suffer double damage, still, even with their auto double damage (4x with luck, try it yourself), their damage output is not that good
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My dear friend, warlords do little damage to single target even with their lightning strike, and dwarven heroes lack ATT. Their power lies in the ability to hit many units; they will never kill 3/4 paladins, lol! Besides, paladins are one of the faster units in the game (12 init) so how can you prevent them for charging? In most cases you can't, since they go first. Haven has also marksmen, griffins and archangels which can do huge damage; paladins are jut their top killer. Still, batte diving irina griffins with 5 morale will cut through your army like a hot knife through butter, even without paladins : O
With luck + auto double atk + arties, they can (not kill them all, but reduce pally to 1/4 is possible), i always mention that they need artifact to act first, so that they can stop paladin, rune + light magic alone cannot make their highest initiative stacks act first than paladin. There is still runes for arhcangel, marksmen, and griffin, however not all runes are good vs them.
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No my good sir, dwarves' def is lower than haven's def:
Knight gets 45%def.
Runelord gets 30%def.
And the rune is not "too late to use", it's the best rune there is, covering up very poor damage of dwarven units. YOu want first turn kills? With what, with army that has poor attack, lowest damage in game (statistically), and with max init 12 at berserkers? If you want first turn kills, go for sylvan. Dwarves are meant to stall (def. formation, preparation), activate multiple runes, get buffed by light magic and demolish everything around.
Hmm.., yeah, i forgot that dwarf def is lower.
Agreed, but instead of using beserking, it's better with dragonform, because dragonform buff defensive formation and preparation, while beserking make your unit atk nearest target.
Besides, beserking is too situational too use, i mean we can't never take the advantage of this rune with full number stack, it's always reduced first due to low initiative of dwarf, however i agree this rune is make to cover that reduced number. I know, that rune of resurrec can make dwarf reduced number almost as powerful as full stack, then use beserk rune, but better using rune of dragonform.
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Bad rune to me, increases the att and def without taking hero attack/def or artifacts into consideration, so the effect is not that great.
If hero + artifact atk and def are taken ito consideration, then how imba this rune. This rune already one of good rune, at least, it is a rune that is not situational. Compared to the rest which usually situational. Things which is situational can be easily avoided.
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Sure, -50% damage versus an implosion that kills every stack in one hit is bad, right?
If you go againts warlock, that rune also depends on your luck, you get two immunity, but random, good if you get destructive immunity, still can be breached by warlock, but there is still dwarven luck, and protection perks, also arties that will make implosion weaker. Not bad if you have arties, and perks needed, this rune only won't save those dwarf, unless it's super very late game when lv 7 unit reach number of 25+ (very rarely happens).
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Also taking out the Magma Dragons in one hit is a dream ... Even if you train all your priests to paladins it won't be enough ! The Magma's are just too tough ... Add to that the big defense of the RuneMage, the defense skill , and other defensive perks , and you have the picture of a rock solid creature that won't leave the battlefield soon. Taking out Deep Hydras led by a Warlock is a different story to taking out Magmas led by a RuneMage!
You'r right, to one hit kill magma is very hard. One hit killing magma also destroy your stack too.
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hehe ... not having played a single multi player game with the dwarfs(not in my available clan choice  , only some duels , I can say runes are really powerfull, and the whole dwarven faction is really powerfull! You totally don't understand the game dinamics if you say most runes are crap, or that destructive magic is bad for the dwarfs...
Rune of Battle Rage is a godly rune. 6 headed attack is very easy to obtain especially for large creature imho, but apart from that you get no enemy retaliation for your creature and that is great too!
no, now i cannot say they're crap, it's too extreme, but, really, several of the runes are very situational.
As for battle rage rune, fast faction can easily make it still hit one stack, but with no retaliation, and that's the only point i use this rune, not because the six headed atk, but because of no retaliation, however, dwarf dmg still very low.
Yeah, whole dwarven faction is good, i never say they're bad, dwarf is one of very balanced faction, even i consider them as one of late game king, when i say they're late game king is not becasue magic+runes only, i also consider good artifacts setup which perfect them, and only very few faction that can become late game king on their own.
But i still prefer light over destructive, their damage even with ignite rarely save them, sure ignite is good, but need 3 turn, if you want destructive, warlock is far better, i'm tired to wait for 3 turn to reach max damage, and by turn 3, my creatures do better job than ignite, that's why i want to max my creatures's potential with light magic, besides, most of dwarven perks and runes compliment light magic well than they do with destrucive, examples: def and off formation+preparation with resurrect and dragonform combo, dwarven luck and magic resistance with elemental immunity, and many more. That's why i choose light magic, it's far better than armagedoning enemies to death, which take very long, it's different story if you have good destructive boosting arties, but even with destructive bossting arties, light magic is better.
When i say that other rune are not that good because they need something to compliment them to become useful, it's not like rune of charge, resurrection and dragonform that is good on their own, no need to explain this again.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 11, 2007 06:56 PM |
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Quote:
Warlord main target suffer double damage, still, even with their auto double damage (4x with luck, try it yourself), their damage output is not that good.
I think I need to throw in a comment on this: Technically, you are correct that the main target suffers double damage from the Warlord attack. This is because the Warlord has a double attack consisting of a melee attack for full damage and a lightning attack for full damage, which will also go to all adjacant units.
However, I say technically correct because Warlord base damage is only 9 - 14, which compared to average damage for level 6 creatures (18 - 28) is precisely half damage. Therefore, in reality it would be more correct to say that the Warlord hits the target for full damage and adjacant units will suffer half damage from the Lightning effect.
The above, combined with the Warlord's low Attack (15 vs. average Attack of 22.7 and average defence of 23.0 for level 6 units), will mean that the Warlord will deliver below-average damage to the target. With good luck, he will deal 4 x base damage, but this is still below the damage an average level 6 unit would deal on a lucky attack.
I will not comment on whether that will make the Warlord able to take out the Paladins or not, but the off-hand remark that the Warlord "will deal quadroble damage with good luck" is missguiding.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 11, 2007 07:06 PM |
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Quote:
Also taking out the Magma Dragons in one hit is a dream ... Even if you train all your priests to paladins it won't be enough ! The Magma's are just too tough ... Add to that the big defense of the RuneMage, the defense skill , and other defensive perks , and you have the picture of a rock solid creature that won't leave the battlefield soon. Taking out Deep Hydras led by a Warlock is a different story to taking out Magmas led by a RuneMage!
Gosh.
If you somehow manage to train additional 13 paladins per week (even not from the start, let's say at the beginning of second month) and get a lucky strike, after 2 months you kill all the magmas in one blow. Do some math and check. I've done it already.
Ok, it's costly and usually impossible, but in theory, paladins may become so godly that even full stack of magmas can't stop them.
also, I agree with alci about warlords: they deal a lot of damage to a clustered army, with many runes activated at once they may send 80% of enemy's army to hell (lucky battlerage+berserking..).. But when attacking 1 creature at time, they are not so godly. Killing the paladins in 1 blow is completely out of their power.
Hey, but what about another approach:
Dwarven hero with defense arties, preparation and defense formation. He defends at first turns, and casts mass endurance: The enemy attacks are doing poor damage (let's skip paladins here), and the defenders get first strike (!). The time is used to cast mass righteous might, and prepare runes of berserking, battlerage and so on: Now, warlords, magmas and berserkers attack vital spots of enemy's army, with luck doing outstanding quadruple damage against all adjacent targets (!), additionally, magmas score some breath attacks and warlords launch a fatal lot of lightnings ; Now, hero starts tossing ressurection and cratures use runes of ressurection: in the end, the dwarves are victorius with little loses.
Doesn't work vs. warlocks ;p
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 12, 2007 02:21 PM |
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Yeah, warlords damage is very low, even if they luckily strikes many of our creatures + arties + light magic, it's still average, with runes, their dmg become above average, still, if i hope for rune of beserking, that rune won't make any difference, but dragonform and thunderclap is good, also etherealness, sure they doesn't improve warlords damage output that much, but they're safe at the front line.
It's okay if warlords can't take out paladins in one blow, and looks like they'll never able to, at least reduce pally to 1/3 or luckily to 1/2 is good enough, i usually use warlords like cerberus or nightmares if againts havens, also there is rune of thunderclap, if i trigger its stun effect, their pally cannot move. If their units can't one hit kill one of my stack, then i won't rush my warlords, if there is a possibility of one hit kill (not only by paladins, other units also can cover those paladin), then better rushing to the front stop this, but if going to the front also has a possibility of ne hit kill, then my only option is playing defensive yet offensively, and i hope that my bear will trigger their special a lot, and thunderclap save the day (still, it depends on luck and creature hp).
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Doesn't work vs. warlocks ;p
That explain how good dungeon faction is, i think dungeon is the most balanced faction, even dark magic destroy them, still, my feeling is that they're the most balanced faction, besides they're my number one faction before i switch to inferno.
I have a question about dungeon, is it true that the chance of getting logistic with dungeon is 2%? (only because of that, i switch to inferno, i know that this is crazy, but i never like slow moving heroes, this is also my reason i don't like dwarf, even i consider them as one of my favorite faction)
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted April 12, 2007 02:25 PM |
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After hearing so much opinions, I'll still stick to my original thoughts.
Paladins are powerful and can take out most stacks in one shot but...
Nightmares and Cerberus have higher initiative, hence all online haven players I've battled before rarely get a chance to even use them. And somehow, the damage doesn't seem ridiculously high even after much jousting, just quite high.
Warlords are goners against factions like Dungeon, Inferno and Sylvan but rule against Necropolis or Academy. They are generally crappy despite their "amazing sounding" specials.
Some runes are very powerful yet others are nonsense.
While knights gain defense faster than runemages, note that Dwarven is the only faction with total defense shooting over hundred but attack in the 70s zone, thus placing them highest and lowest.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 12, 2007 02:46 PM |
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Agreed completely.
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Paladins are powerful and can take out most stacks in one shot but...
Nightmares and Cerberus have higher initiative, hence all online haven players I've battled before rarely get a chance to even use them. And somehow, the damage doesn't seem ridiculously high even after much jousting, just quite high.
True.
It's because they're already blocked easily with nightmares and cerberus, making their jousting potential only good againts nightmares or cerberus, i'm sure paladin can't target all the other units if blocked by nightmares and cerberus, that makes their only jousting option is nightmares or cerberus or they want to move and not to attack, but they wait the chance to joust the back armies. Their damage is still very high, but their only option is to kill 2 of your creatures which has done their job very well (we know that nightmares and cerberus are suicide squad) before they get killed (in turn 2 they usually fall, if not both, usually one of them), if they score a lucky atk, good, i don't mind if they die at turn 2.
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Warlords are goners against factions like Dungeon, Inferno and Sylvan but rule against Necropolis or Academy. They are generally crappy despite their "amazing sounding" specials.
True, because they're all fast faction, that's also one of dwarf's weakness, they are not as powerful as if they face slow faction.
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Some runes are very powerful yet others are nonsense.
Againts fast faction yes, but againts medium and slow faction, they're powerful, still, nonsense seems a little too extreme
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While knights gain defense faster than runemages, note that Dwarven is the only faction with total defense shooting over hundred but attack in the 70s zone, thus placing them highest and lowest.
True, no comment.
And about my question, how high is the chance of getting logistic with dungeon? (is it really 2%??, but, sometimes i often get logistic)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 12, 2007 03:48 PM |
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After hearing so much opinions, I'll still stick to my original thoughts.
Paladins are powerful and can take out most stacks in one shot but...
Nightmares and Cerberus have higher initiative, hence all online haven players I've battled before rarely get a chance to even use them. And somehow, the damage doesn't seem ridiculously high even after much jousting, just quite high.
Yes, blocking them is a decent method: but if haven player places marksmen next to them, you know what that means: precise shot, which is very deadly. I wouldn't be so quick in putting my nightmares in the range of precise shot
ChaosDragon: as a Dungeon player, I can tell you that playing dungeon is comfortable for a reason: your hero is a one man army. And even if your army fails, he never does. I mean, he can't get cursed,slowed, stat reduced, blocked, frenzied, killed - and so on. Very reliable. And that's the best point of warlocks
ah yes, warlocks have 8% chance of learning logistics, don't panic
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