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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 07, 2006 02:20 PM |
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Doomforge and Towerlord... first i have a question...just of curiousity, how old are you ?
19
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Second:
Elvin is right about most stuff.BUT...he's also very wrong about some other stuff.For instance, Ihora has 0.5% and NOT 0.05% per lvl initiative bonus which is ALOT different.So Ihora+phantom forces would be a nice solution (firetrap works like a charm against palladins too  )
ok so at level 20 it will be +10%, which contributes to one extra point of initiative. Is it so great? I honestly think it's not.
And third:
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Doomforge,
you based your theory on ver 1.0 ??? O M G .
Well, actually yes. Maybe I've forgotten to write that earlier  However, it's not theory, you know. It used to be practice. I may agree with you that now it's plain theory, though Like the inquisitor thing. I was certain that they still have cleansing, and they don't, so it's way easier now to utilise dark magic. My bad. Yes, of course it's good to force paladins (one of the strongest hitters in the game) to do something else than tearing apart your lizards, but in 1.0 you could get like +4 extra dispels PLUS the hero's one. It's better right now, right.
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And about dark magic: i told you to use shadow witches/matriarchs for casting confusion and if he cleanses, then your hero.Or even have two stacks of matriarchs and you'll be fine.
Three works better, afaik. Extra confusion on paladins to make their retals weaker is a nice thing. I always skipped hydras and minotaurs (good, but slow. Yes, can be insanely good with teleport assault, but first, I prefer to zap the enemy creatures with magic instead of teleporting my units, second, I don't have enough gold to build them all, third, After a teleport they will most likely be in marksmen's range and you'll get the zero-defense precise shot, in other words, they will die in one shot.) so I had plenty of room left.
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And let me remind you that all those things i wrote are just concerning the anti-marksmen strategy. There are many units that Haven needs to be affraid of.Expecially from Dungeon.Initiative is VERY important overall,so just try to get the ring of speed+ring of celerity and let blackies,grims and furies do some serious damage.
Agreed again, BUT there is that damn precise shot to come and bite you in the ass  Blackies (or, more realisticaly, shadow drags, because it's very hard to get blacks in mp) WILL die due to their defense lowered to ZERO. I find it better NOT to charge with them.
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And then when marksmen are the only thing that's still breathing - i believe you will find a way to destroy them 
I'd rather say kill them ASAP, and don't let them remain on combat field until the end
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Not to mention combo of light/dark magic hero (that i sometimes tend to have) and then this is the situation :
Matriarchs cast confusion.Palladins lay hands.Second stack of matriarchs casts confusion again.Palladins cannot access marksmen.Your hero casts mass deflect missile (on expert).His hero casts cleansing but where? Does he cleanse his marksmen or your entire army?
Joy But i almost never got light magic for my warlocks.
Regards dude :]
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 07, 2006 02:25 PM |
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One thing that I can't understand TowerLord.. Most of the guys say that Dougal with his marksman is overp****** (this word makes me sick)
As I understand you agree with that fact. So why are you still playing with that hero? What's the point?
First of all,I haven't played a game for very long... these are just memories .
Second...If I were to play a game, I wouldn't feel guilty about playing with Dougal, cause I pointed out the strategy, so I feel its my right to use it! Anyway Dougal isn't the problem... Training marksmen is! There are many heroes like Dougal, Ossir in Sylvan with his Hunters and many others, in every town! They are not super Heros, like Solmyr and Jeddite used to be in H3, they are decent heroes, that work nicely with a strategy.
Third of all, I don't say it is overp***** , just superior,it has an edge over the other towns! But it can be defeated... like I said if there were 2 equal players clashing, the one with Haven has more chances of victory
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 07, 2006 02:49 PM |
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HEBPEME, I just want to ask you to read the whole thread... I'm sure you didn't do this!
DoomForge was the no. 1 opponent to this thread, if I convinced him, I see no point in doing the same thing to you .
You say you are experienced. I have just one question : have you ever fought against 600 marksmen led by a human in week 6? I think not... if you would have, then you wouldn't be so hard headed.
Splitting one Paladin for the purpose of curing isn't a big deal! If I feel like I need some extra cure I'll certainly do that, and I'll place him addiacent to the marksmen!
Since I don't use Conscripts any more(cause lately I have the money to train all the paesants), and Angels never... I have 2 free stacks for splitting whatever I want! And sometimes I even skip inquisitors, so that makes 3 free stacks, for making as many combos as I need(splitted marksmen, splitted Pals, splitted Griffins or Squires, depending on the needs of the fight)!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 07, 2006 03:39 PM |
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TowerLord, Gotta disappoint you, but it wasn't you who convinced me I realized how cheesy this strategy is when my friend completely owned me (back in 1.0) three times using dougal and hordes of marksmen, paired by squires and 4 stacks "just to dispel". That was quite a painful lesson.. I quit playing necropolis since then
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2006 03:44 PM |
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Quote:
Elvin is right about most stuff.BUT...he's also very wrong about some other stuff.For instance, Ihora has 0.5% and NOT 0.05% per lvl initiative bonus which is ALOT different.So Ihora+phantom forces would be a nice solution (firetrap works like a charm against palladins too )
Actually it seemed pretty clear:I said 0.05 which is 0.5% of 10.That's how I figured the 11 initiative at lvl 20.It's not much so don't expect your phantom forces to multiply like crazy but it lets you play first most times.However with exp sorcery(which you'll eventually get) and just one mark of the wizard you can get 2 clones and at a fast rate,more if you can place more marks.I agree that firetrap can be troubling for large units but I usually have something better in mind.By the time the enemy gets palies I usually have better and more useful spells.But I admit that I love this spell on expert
____________
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 07, 2006 05:18 PM |
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TowerLord, Gotta disappoint you, but it wasn't you who convinced me I realized how cheesy this strategy is when my friend completely owned me (back in 1.0) three times using dougal and hordes of marksmen, paired by squires and 4 stacks "just to dispel". That was quite a painful lesson.. I quit playing necropolis since then
DoomForge you just had to say, didn't you... You had to crush my dreams, spoil my ilussions etc. 
PS: i wish behe had a friend like yours ?
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 12, 2006 10:45 PM |
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Very sure I heared that inferno has a very big disadvantage when fighting haven...why I am posting this.
Started playing a custom game,think that one with 6 players,and played red player.First two weeks,had only imps and horned demons -8 hell hounds from hell hound dwelling on map,and started taking over mines......week 4,had about 13 succubus,25 hell hounds,50+ demons and just 30+imps,conquered everything weak enough i could find in my area.when month two started I had fought with everything in my land except some blackdragons and didn't even have the hell charger building...built heart of the pit to recruit pit fiends.good.went of to enemy teritory,let computer sort out the enemy castles.....the one next to me was haven....he had the cavalier building,priest,and sqordsman building un-upgraded,rest of them were.After a while thought to take his castle...but from south(uncharted territory),Laszlo came.My army couldn't even compare to his.Now,don't know if this was luck,but i don't think he used the training ability,because he had just 39 marksmen and 160 conscripts!rest of the army was composed of 47 squires,24 imperial griffins,6 priests and 4 cavaliers.My army was composed of 5 pitfiends,19 succubus mistresses,80+Horned overseers,and 70+familiares.He started,went for battle dive position with griffins,and thought it would hit my succubi,when it was heroes turn,by the way never mentioned the hero,Deleb,meat-grinder,casted haste on my succubi,and moved with them to another location,two turns later,I was right.Casted fireball on marksmen and footmen,killed 12 marksmen and 6 footmen...good,then moved griffins turn again,went for familiares...ouch 30+died...horned overseers turn,went for griffins but killed only 7...cavaliers had advanced by this time and their turn again,went for familiares,all of them- ,with succubui 17 due to icebolt,targeted cavaliers,killed none but instead 1 griffin,2 footmen,and 16 conscripts.....pitfiends went for cavaliers,killed almost two.....horned overseers turn killed one more cavalier,then griffin went for succubi,killed 4 of them retaliated,one died.....ooops sqordsman advanced closer to me!took my overseers and attacked,with luck,finally,killed 10 of them...then conscripts attacked my overseers,12 died....with my pitfiends(4)casted another fireball on marksmen,13 died,then they shot my succubi who shot back and finished them.there were only 4 left!remaining problems were the priests and conscripts,hero kept casting bless on his priests,but now kept attacking my pit fiends,overseers killed 29 conscripts,retaliated killed 5,then succubi(thank god i bought a ammo cart)killed 14 conscripts,damages priests......take my pit fiend closer and closer...hero kills two of them,so I only have two more,overseers just 20 or so,go to priest and attack,retaliate,kill 11....then attack priest with pit fiend,1 died,then with hero casted eldricht arrow,since I could afford only this spell.I kept hitting his priests with all my army ,but when he had 3 he fled.....Then took his town.
Forgot to mention that at a point he kept ignoring my troops and went for my ballista with griffins and cavaliers till he destroyed it!It helped me,but not much(didn't target marksmen or priest,but footmen).
It is just a reminder that in early games to let haven troops come to you and take the first step!This is what I've learned.
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 12, 2006 10:51 PM |
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You've heard wrong.. inferno is among haven's worst enemies
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 12, 2006 11:02 PM |
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You've heard wrong.. inferno is among haven's worst enemies
WOW!!!!!Really????
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2006 11:03 PM |
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@DragonLord3000:The only thing one can can learn from that is that Deleb can defeat armies larger than your own Oh and that AI is so dumb as to go for conscripts!
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 12, 2006 11:08 PM |
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@DragonLord3000:The only thing one can can learn from that is that Deleb can defeat armies larger than your own Oh and that AI is so dumb as to go for conscripts!
I know she can,because of her ballista,but this time the haven troops took mine out early,so it didn't make such a very big difference,all though I did some damage to those griffins with the succubi while they were ignoring my troops,but I think you get the point!!!
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2006 11:26 PM |
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Btw in my last game I had Nymus as my starting hero and in the first lvl ups I got exp luck and exp gating.The earlygame was fairly easy even though a necromancer with a big stack of skeleton archers rushed me.I even got as lucky to take leadership and I can assure you that an inferno army with these is force to be reckoned with no matter what faction against.Inferno may seem to be weak in the beginning but they have easy access to logistics,excruciating strike,hellfire and gating.In my last battle gating was crazy since I already had specialty,swarming gate and infernal loom built.My 28 pitlords gated 26(!) more
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 13, 2006 12:03 PM |
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Btw in my last game I had Nymus as my starting hero and in the first lvl ups I got exp luck and exp gating.The earlygame was fairly easy even though a necromancer with a big stack of skeleton archers rushed me.I even got as lucky to take leadership and I can assure you that an inferno army with these is force to be reckoned with no matter what faction against.Inferno may seem to be weak in the beginning but they have easy access to logistics,excruciating strike,hellfire and gating.In my last battle gating was crazy since I already had specialty,swarming gate and infernal loom built.My 28 pitlords gated 26(!) more
Hopapap!..!That is amazing!Nymus has the gating specialization?Idon't know the inferno and academy heroes very well.
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 13, 2006 11:11 PM |
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Edited by Izzachar at 23:21, 13 Sep 2006.
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Edit: Sorry I missed that there was another page  so this post seems unnessecary but I still keep it.
HEPEME aye you should play towerlord, and I think you are foolish to implicate that towerlord or doomforge should be childish. Towerlord contributed alot to the forums and he has very good arguements for eveything he says also he never needs to call ppl names in order to back his arguements upp. Doomforge also has contributed quite alot even though his knowledge about the game is getting old by now, Dont know how many times you said that inquisitors still had dispell doomforge
It wouldnt matter if furies where in melee range or in half damage shooting range they would be dead anyways. And if matriachs cast confusion there is a very big chance that it will get dispelled before marksmens turn.
Now I havent played 1.3 and havent played heroes for some weeks, I aint got the time. So maybe they changed something? However as someone in this thread said, you gotta have a very specifik strategy to counter this and even with such a strategy you would likely only win 50% of the times. atleast this was the case for 1.2.
As towerlord says, dark magic isnt a problem. HAven hero with mass cleansing + 2 stacks of pallas. Theres alot of chances that whatever casted on the marksmen will be dispelled before its their turn again and kills your next stack.
I still would like to add that this tactic works very good in other maps then subt. I played vs quite a few ppl using it. however it isnt THAT devastating in other maps but still you need a very specifik way to counter it.
About inferno beeing threat to haven I would say yes and no. Infernos greatest difficulty is defeating a big powerstack of ranged = necros + haven with training above all with dougal.
Vs dougal its a pain because you have so low defence and no shooters there is not many ways you can stop the marksmen, with some luck you could get some nice frenzies off and keep them from the fight. But you need LUCK. Also haven player could just split his marksmen stack and you are in lots of trouble. And theres no way you can block them in time, haven player should just stand there with pallas guaring them since the marksmen can win the whole fight for him.
If he doesnt train markmen I would say yes, inferno is a great threat to haven. But to really have an advantage you need dark magic. MAss confusion, frenzy, debuffs combined with imps draining haven heroes mana is awesome. Alastor is awesome if he gets dark magic vs haven and sylvian and he isnt that hard to lv upp TBH as I myself have claimed before and others also.
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted September 14, 2006 01:09 PM |
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Izzachar,
i have nothing against anyone on forum,not Towerlord,not Doomforge,not anybody.I was wondering about their age cuz it really sounds like a child's statement.Every faction can be killed,any faction can win.Remember that.And about some posts sayin that "any faction that you need a special strategy agianst is overpowered" - give me a break.That is the whole point.You need a counter against every faction.It's just that people are usually affraid and annoyed by ranged units and have issues cuz marksmen are lvl 2 and deal more damage then many higher lvl creatures.So what? What about master hunters,blood furies,grims (when charging of course)...I know,you will probably say "you can have 200 master hunters the most while Haven can have 600 marksmen". True.But don't forget that hunters shoot twice (damage 5-8) + warding arrow so it's not much weaker than 600 marksmen (damage 2-8).You do the math.200 hunters shooting twice equals 400 hunters.Average damage of hunters is 6.5 and 5 for marksmen.Plus,hunters have chance to get luck on both shots (and let's not forget elven luck)!! So 200 master hunters vs 600 marksmen is quite balanced when talking about unit vs unit.This is of course wihtout any spells involved (divine strength,righteus might etc).
And one more thing.If you don't want too many casualties from afar, just learn light magic,become master of abjuration and cast mass defflect missile.So marksmen can kiss your butt  Just make sure you're not 3 tiles or less away from them
And finally, Izacchar, i would be glad to play against Towerlord and i am looking forward to that.I already said that earlier.And by all means,don't translate this as if i said that i am superior or that i said i will crush him like a bug.I am just saying that Haven can be destroyed just like any other faction and that i would do my best to do it if playing against him.I only said that we both get to pick one map.Since he mastered Subt. treasures i would choose some other map with different tier creature dwelling on it.
Later all
P.S. Since i haven't installed 1.3 yet (just downloaded it), can anyone tell me is Haven nerfed in any way? And did they change building costs in Haven, or training prices? thx
See ya
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 14, 2006 01:37 PM |
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i have nothing against anyone on forum,not Towerlord,not Doomforge,not anybody.I was wondering about their age cuz it really sounds like a child's statement.Every faction can be killed,any faction can win.Remember that.And about some posts sayin that "any faction that you need a special strategy agianst is overpowered" - give me a break.That is the whole point.You need a counter against every faction.It's just that people are usually affraid and annoyed by ranged units and have issues cuz marksmen are lvl 2 and deal more damage then many higher lvl creatures.So what? What about master hunters,blood furies,grims (when charging of course)...I know,you will probably say "you can have 200 master hunters the most while Haven can have 600 marksmen". True.But don't forget that hunters shoot twice (damage 5-8) + warding arrow so it's not much weaker than 600 marksmen (damage 2-8).You do the math.200 hunters shooting twice equals 400 hunters.Average damage of hunters is 6.5 and 5 for marksmen.Plus,hunters have chance to get luck on both shots (and let's not forget elven luck)!! So 200 master hunters vs 600 marksmen is quite balanced when talking about unit vs unit.This is of course wihtout any spells involved (divine strength,righteus might etc).
And one more thing.If you don't want too many casualties from afar, just learn light magic,become master of abjuration and cast mass defflect missile.So marksmen can kiss your butt Just make sure you're not 3 tiles or less away from them
Hehe you still stick to your beliefs I suggest that you face them yourself before crafting strategies against them.200 master hunters?In which year?The math is that hunters will attack first and weaken the marksmen a little,then the marksmen will attack and decimate the hunters(esp is blessed).Warding arrow is not likely to happen because marksmen total hp is way more than the hunters'.But as usual marksmen will take half damage due to squires which is inevitable.Master of abjuration does not guarantee you'll get deflect missile too.Of course I don't know what changes have taken palce in 1.3 yet so we'll have to wait before we can say more on the matter.Now angels' dwelling costs 10000 and it may be better than training peasants.Maybe
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 14, 2006 02:24 PM |
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i have nothing against anyone on forum,not Towerlord,not Doomforge,not anybody.I was wondering about their age cuz it really sounds like a child's statement.Every faction can be killed,any faction can win.Remember that.And about some posts sayin that "any faction that you need a special strategy agianst is overpowered" - give me a break.That is the whole point.You need a counter against every faction.It's just that people are usually affraid and annoyed by ranged units and have issues cuz marksmen are lvl 2 and deal more damage then many higher lvl creatures.So what? What about master hunters,blood furies,grims (when charging of course)...I know,you will probably say "you can have 200 master hunters the most while Haven can have 600 marksmen". True.But don't forget that hunters shoot twice (damage 5-8) + warding arrow so it's not much weaker than 600 marksmen (damage 2-8).You do the math.200 hunters shooting twice equals 400 hunters.Average damage of hunters is 6.5 and 5 for marksmen.Plus,hunters have chance to get luck on both shots (and let's not forget elven luck)!! So 200 master hunters vs 600 marksmen is quite balanced when talking about unit vs unit.This is of course wihtout any spells involved (divine strength,righteus might etc).
And one more thing.If you don't want too many casualties from afar, just learn light magic,become master of abjuration and cast mass defflect missile.So marksmen can kiss your butt Just make sure you're not 3 tiles or less away from them
And finally, Izacchar, i would be glad to play against Towerlord and i am looking forward to that.I already said that earlier.And by all means,don't translate this as if i said that i am superior or that i said i will crush him like a bug.I am just saying that Haven can be destroyed just like any other faction and that i would do my best to do it if playing against him.I only said that we both get to pick one map.Since he mastered Subt. treasures i would choose some other map with different tier creature dwelling on it.
Later all
P.S. Since i haven't installed 1.3 yet (just downloaded it), can anyone tell me is Haven nerfed in any way? And did they change building costs in Haven, or training prices? thx
See ya
600 marksmen vs. 200 master hunters....huh? Try more like 400-500 marksmen vs. 40-60 master hunters. Don't even try to say the hunters have a prayer. In a couple mp games I've had, I've seen over 600 marksmen by the end of the first month (at my door.) I had nowhere near 100 master hunters.
Yes, all factions have some changes in building costs. I can't answer for training, because I don't play haven.
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 17, 2006 04:30 PM |
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Aye as this post above me says. You wont have 200 hunters when someones got 600 marksmen from training. We are talking about early month 2 here. 80 hunters would be a more reasonable number and marksmens numbers 400-600 depending on map etc. This is the problem. If haven doesnt train peasants to marksmen with dougal its a completely different scenario and I would say that the balance is very good.
You say light magic, not all heroes get this very often. And even if they get it the chances you are getting missile deflection is 50% if that faction is light magic oriented if its not the chances are even less. A counter to something wich works 50% off the times isnt a good counter IMO. Sure theres dark magic aswell and many other paths wich might counter this tactic.
I tried lots of different tactics with inferno against marksmen strategy, mass dark spells, frenzy, icebolt (stunning) working some off the best, a tactic also good vs undead. Still vs marksmen I can never get enough off them no matter what I do, they simply kill my stacks or decimate my army at a bigger pace then I can reduce their numbers. opponent usually have 20-100 left after first / second battle wich is enough for him to win. As towerlord said two equally skilled players the player with dougal and marksmen probably would won.
I still havent played 1.3 so I might be totally wrong about how it works NOW. I keep a reservation for that in my arguements.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 17, 2006 05:02 PM |
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It should be better..
cleansing: 10 mana, mass cleansing: 20 mana
Alastor lucky enough to get dark magic early, and a lot of familiars (get another city to get more) should do the trick now. Even if he completely won't drain knight's mana, there won't be much left (say, 1-2 mass cleansings MAX..) and confusion will finally kick in, making all those stupid marksmen useless. You need to kill the paladins ASAP, ofc.
Just my thoughts.
Ah yes, dungeon is now a killer. Empowered spells actually seem to work with warlock's luck and the costs of mana guilds have been greatly reduced - especially dungeon ones are extremely cheap (0/1/2/3/4 of each resource per level, if I remember correct). This leads to a) lucky empowered spells b) getting them early ! And mana costs got higher, but.. So did sinitar's powers, I guess. Also, the ability that lowers the cost of the spell by 30% and erratic mana is now much more useful.
All in all, warlocks may be strong enough to whomp marksmen, rush, or do whatever they like. Maybe.
Ahh, one more thing: Ballista has now 1,1k HP on expert warmachines, tent has 800 HP and Kaspar starts with animate dead. So, you can rush with either Kaspar or Deleb (nerfed Deleb..) very early, assuming you got exp warmachines and whomp stupid haven before they even think about doing so.
Maybe 1.3 isn't that bad as I thought. But, it's still far from perfect
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 17, 2006 05:27 PM |
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Quote:
It should be better..
cleansing: 10 mana, mass cleansing: 20 mana
Alastor lucky enough to get dark magic early, and a lot of familiars (get another city to get more) should do the trick now. Even if he completely won't drain knight's mana, there won't be much left (say, 1-2 mass cleansings MAX..) and confusion will finally kick in, making all those stupid marksmen useless. You need to kill the paladins ASAP, ofc.
Just my thoughts.
Ah yes, dungeon is now a killer. Empowered spells actually seem to work with warlock's luck and the costs of mana guilds have been greatly reduced - especially dungeon ones are extremely cheap (0/1/2/3/4 of each resource per level, if I remember correct). This leads to a) lucky empowered spells b) getting them early ! And mana costs got higher, but.. So did sinitar's powers, I guess. Also, the ability that lowers the cost of the spell by 30% and erratic mana is now much more useful.
All in all, warlocks may be strong enough to whomp marksmen, rush, or do whatever they like. Maybe.
Let's clear that "maybe".I will play on a two player map with dungeon vs.havenhis hero will be klaus and mine lethos.
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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This thread is pages long: 
