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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 06, 2006 02:46 PM |
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Quote:
I can't imagine how a sylvan player can win.. hunters won't help here(squires), and druids ain't that good in bigger numbers. Unicorns are fun, sure, but get ready to lose them in your first turn, and treants ain't attackers. What's left?
Actually, I have an easier time beating Haven with Sylvan than any other faction. Initiative control....
Anyone arguing that Haven isn't unbalanced is a fool. Facing hundreds of strong tier 2 units just a couple weeks into the game is retarded. These aren't skeleton archers, which are a weak tier one unit. Yes, its possible to defeat the strategy, but it leaves you very little strategic option of your own, and even the best methods of defeating Dougal and his marksmen succeed less than 50% of the time.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted September 06, 2006 03:02 PM |
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This is why they are rebalancing training in patch 1.3.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted September 06, 2006 06:03 PM |
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Edited by HEBPEME at 18:04, 06 Sep 2006.
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Demortae,friend,
i guess that you're one of those guys who think that you can't beat Haven. In that case, i guess you don't have a lot of experience in HoMM 5.There are plenty of different strategies and ways of winning against ANY faction. If you disagree with that, i believe you're not too bright.
And another thing: would it make you happy if all units of the same tier in ALL factions had exactly the SAME stats and abilities and just a different look ? I guess that would be the only way to really balance this game.
Think about it...just like in any other game (and in real life as well) there are STRONGER and WEAKER sides of any faction (race,country,army...whatever) and that's just the way it is.The point is to use a counter measure efficiently and not spit on the game.
I am sorry if i sounded rude or inpolite,but i just got tired of people constantly critisizing the game without real reasons.
And if anyone still claims that Haven is superior,i feel sorry for him 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 06, 2006 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
Demortae,friend,
i guess that you're one of those guys who think that you can't beat Haven. In that case, i guess you don't have a lot of experience in HoMM 5.There are plenty of different strategies and ways of winning against ANY faction. If you disagree with that, i believe you're not too bright.
And another thing: would it make you happy if all units of the same tier in ALL factions had exactly the SAME stats and abilities and just a different look ? I guess that would be the only way to really balance this game.
Think about it...just like in any other game (and in real life as well) there are STRONGER and WEAKER sides of any faction (race,country,army...whatever) and that's just the way it is.The point is to use a counter measure efficiently and not spit on the game.
I am sorry if i sounded rude or inpolite,but i just got tired of people constantly critisizing the game without real reasons.
And if anyone still claims that Haven is superior,i feel sorry for him
Sure there are but in the haven case to face marksmen you MUST apply a certain strategy and take certain abilities(according to your hero) which results in a one-way lineup.Either you get it and defend yourself or you pay.There are more implications than just losing and any faction that demands a counter has an advantage.About the 'same creatures' argument I'm polite enough not to comment on it.The point is that variety must be encouraged while not at the cost of balance.Real life has nothing to do with it:In life you have no choice but in a game one feels better if he can compete with others and not be at a disadvantage.However even Towerlord has admitted that haven just has an edge over others-it is far from unbeatable so there is no point in arguing more about it.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted September 06, 2006 07:37 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Sure there are but in the haven case to face marksmen you MUST apply a certain strategy and take certain abilities(according to your hero) which results in a one-way lineup.Either you get it and defend yourself or you pay.There are more implications than just losing and any faction that demands a counter has an advantage.About the 'same creatures' argument I'm polite enough not to comment on it.The point is that variety must be encouraged while not at the cost of balance.Real life has nothing to do with it:In life you have no choice but in a game one feels better if he can compete with others and not be at a disadvantage.However even Towerlord has admitted that haven just has an edge over others-it is far from unbeatable so there is no point in arguing more about it.
Elvin,
You MUST apply a certain strategy against ANY faction.Sylvan - hunters, Dungeon- blood furies&grim raiders, Necro - skellis,Inferno-succubi...basicaly versus the strongest creature in faction (and not in terms of HP but exactly the thing we're discussing here). And i am only saying that it is completely normal.Don't tell me that you're playing the same way against all other factions except Haven. You always have to adjust your strategy.Marksmen maybe are little overpowered but what the hell...every faction has some overpowered creatures they are just not always of the same tier. Anyway, i am not arguing with anybody , i am merely exposing my thoughts on the subject since that's what the forums are here for 
So we all have a right to think different and we all have our ways of trying to persuade others that our theories are right 
L8er
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 06, 2006 08:25 PM |
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HEBPEME please play vs. Towerlord and you will see how powerful haven is. He seems quite experienced now
Maybe it's just my imagination but his posts became less theory and more gaming experience now  On the other hand, my posts are becoming mainly a theory, bcuz I still can't play.. -____- oh well.
Anyway, dougal+marksmen+training thing should be banned from any serious online play or tours. It would be best to make training peasants to archers either completely impossible or much more expensive (_MUCH_ more..). The natural counter for this should be dark magic, but with all this cleansing on units and light magic present in haven's guild, dark magic simply can't stop them. And, to think all this fuss is to counter ONE stack. What about paladins, gryphs? They pack quite a punch too. ~~
600 marksmen kill 1 stack per move, so combat would last 7 marksmen turns... which can occur quite fast (haste, high morale = thx) I think empowered implo will not be enough, plus, you may simply not get it.
And, master of storms got nerfed. Tell me - why? What a "imbalanced" ability, yeah. -_- Ubi/Nival can't distinguish REAL cheap strats from decent-but-not-imba-ones? Gosh.
Haven is similiar to h3 necropolis. Give them a bit time and you'll get washed away. No wonder necro was banned on most turney games (along with conflux). I hope patch 1.3 WILL fix this - or 95% games will look like haven vs haven. ~~
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted September 06, 2006 08:44 PM |
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All that I can say that we will try and see. That is, if before the 1.3 comes out 
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted September 07, 2006 12:57 AM |
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Doomforge,
i believe that Towerlord is experienced and so am i, but if i understood correctly, he's only playing Sub treasures map because he starts with a second town 3 or 4 days away from his starting town, AND with the archers tower building in 2 days from his town.He seem to use the same strategy every time and that doesn't sound too difficult to deal with.If you are a high lvl dark or destructive mage, TRUST ME that you can do more than just stop his marksmen! If you have sorcery too, you don't have to worry alot about his cleansing of your dark magic cast upon his marksmen.If you wanna mess him up,choose academy , take Ihora (windspeaker) and with expert light magic - cast mass defflect missile.i seriously doubt that he will be able to keep up with your casting speed.If you're inferno - suck his mana and then start casting.If you're dungeon - cast confusion with shadow matriarchs and deal damage with hero,or cast confusion with hero after he cleansed a spell cast by shadow matriarchs,and so on,and so on.So don't tell me there is no cure for bloody marksmen, please. If summoning - make same phantom forces...Haven doesn't have area effect damage (unless he has a stack of archers in his army...if he does - kill them ASAP) and then start creating stack after stack,after stack...i doubt he has "banish" too. So give me a break with "unbeatable marksmen" theory.
And if you,somehow,fail to succeed in all of these strategies, pick Haven,take Klaus (or Laszlo) and start blasting his entire army with Palladins
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2006 01:22 AM |
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Quote:
Elvin,
You MUST apply a certain strategy against ANY faction.Sylvan - hunters, Dungeon- blood furies&grim raiders, Necro - skellis,Inferno-succubi...basicaly versus the strongest creature in faction (and not in terms of HP but exactly the thing we're discussing here). And i am only saying that it is completely normal.Don't tell me that you're playing the same way against all other factions except Haven. You always have to adjust your strategy.Marksmen maybe are little overpowered but what the hell...every faction has some overpowered creatures they are just not always of the same tier. Anyway, i am not arguing with anybody , i am merely exposing my thoughts on the subject since that's what the forums are here for
So we all have a right to think different and we all have our ways of trying to persuade others that our theories are right
L8er
You are right.However in a game you will face other factions too but still my primary concern will be haven.You can compete against most other factions but not easily against haven with little preparation.Normally I wouldn't care about how numerous they are but they have precise shot and can negate enemy defence if you get close to them(I've seen them killing a nightmare stack in one shot) plus it is difficult to kill them fast with ranged(squires).Also griffins and paladins can prevent you from tackling them for a while If the opponent gets lucky and blesses them before you can debuff them and/or they get a luck roll they can do pretty good damage that cannot be shrugged off easily even if they don't act as fast.
Mainly what I dislike here is that it is fairly easy to get many of them and become a threat but difficult to face such a horde against them.Haven gains power fast and with ease.But only for so long,1.3 is on its way
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2006 01:36 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 01:39, 07 Sep 2006.
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Quote:
If you are a high lvl dark or destructive mage, TRUST ME that you can do more than just stop his marksmen! If you have sorcery too, you don't have to worry alot about his cleansing of your dark magic cast upon his marksmen.If you wanna mess him up,choose academy , take Ihora (windspeaker) and with expert light magic - cast mass defflect missile.i seriously doubt that he will be able to keep up with your casting speed.
Haven doesn't have area effect damage (unless he has a stack of archers in his army...
A second haven with fresh peasants and archers can indeed unbalance things.However a few notes:Sorcery does not affect mass spells,they always take 1/2 of hero initiative so you won't have a speed advantage.Also Jhora's special is 0.05 init per lvl and while faster you won't be too far ahead(at lvl 20 you will have 11 initiative).Finally yes haven won't have area effect spells but stone spikes is pretty accessible.If he doesn't he will feel the power of mark of the wizard by my casting two clones at a time
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted September 07, 2006 03:21 AM |
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600 Marksmen my goodness, where is the cash coming from. How much does it cost to train one weeks worth of peasants (from two castles no less) from peasant--->archer---->marksman?
Can't be doing that with just two towns, or are you? I must be missing something here. Could someone point me to the numbers?
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 07, 2006 09:18 AM |
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Quote:
Doomforge,
i believe that Towerlord is experienced and so am i, but if i understood correctly, he's only playing Sub treasures map because he starts with a second town 3 or 4 days away from his starting town, AND with the archers tower building in 2 days from his town.He seem to use the same strategy every time and that doesn't sound too difficult to deal with.If you are a high lvl dark or destructive mage, TRUST ME that you can do more than just stop his marksmen! If you have sorcery too, you don't have to worry alot about his cleansing of your dark magic cast upon his marksmen.If you wanna mess him up,choose academy , take Ihora (windspeaker) and with expert light magic - cast mass defflect missile.i seriously doubt that he will be able to keep up with your casting speed.If you're inferno - suck his mana and then start casting.If you're dungeon - cast confusion with shadow matriarchs and deal damage with hero,or cast confusion with hero after he cleansed a spell cast by shadow matriarchs,and so on,and so on.So don't tell me there is no cure for bloody marksmen, please. If summoning - make same phantom forces...Haven doesn't have area effect damage (unless he has a stack of archers in his army...if he does - kill them ASAP) and then start creating stack after stack,after stack...i doubt he has "banish" too. So give me a break with "unbeatable marksmen" theory.
And if you,somehow,fail to succeed in all of these strategies, pick Haven,take Klaus (or Laszlo) and start blasting his entire army with Palladins
Yup, nice counters.. on paper, my friend Sure, destructive magic may help, but forget about dark. Two stacks of inquisitors with cleansing (do they still have it? They did in 1.0 I'm pretty certain..) and maybe a stack of paladins + hero casting AoE Cleansing (uses half initiative) and you'll never do a thing with your dark magic.
As Elvin explained, Jhora's bonus is very small, and sorcery doesn't work with mass/aoe spells, so forget about being faster than your enemy with spells.
Inferno.. yes, familiar way is good (I play mainly inferno, so I rely on them pretty much), but he still has a lot ways to dispel magic with his units, so it's not that easy..
I was certain that TowerLord is wrong at first, but then it came to me that he's possibly correct  And with such a cheap cookie-cutter, does he need other strategy? I think no. It is like fast phoenix tech in h3: Gives great advantage over your opponent. ;p
But, but! Don't get me wrong. Marksmen ain't THAT terrible. It's just that you need to take correct hero/strategy to counter ONE stack.. and what about the rest? They are very strong too!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2006 10:09 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 10:28, 07 Sep 2006.
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Have faith Doomforge,dark can still hold on its own!I don't remember about 1.0 but inquisitors don't have cleansing just haste,divine strength,endurance.Paladins may cause a problem but you are better off if they lay hands than let them attack you! After all why cast a 1-target spell at first when you can cast a mass one?As long as you are out of range a couple of marksmen shots won't hurt you and in the first rounds you'll have to deal with the palies and griffins anyway.And while you are sure to find some mass curses the knight won't always have cleansing or even expert cleansing No that it won't be a h*ll of a fight!
BTW why can't you play?What great tragedy has befallen you?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2006 10:35 AM |
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Inquisitors haven't had Cleansing for ages.
Too much theory... those counters work well on paper, but I want to see battle reports
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted September 07, 2006 11:12 AM |
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I'll try to answer to all of you...
DoomForge is quite right, Dark Magic can be countered by Mass Cleansing easily! Also Paladins casting Cure might be a better option Charging like bull into the enemy stacks! Also you can split the Paladins so you have more cures available! You might ask why would you do that... The answer is very simple : because 600 Marksmen kill one stack from one shot, even with range penalty!
Let me tell you what I've seen the Marksmen doing : my 350 or 380, something like that, marksmen were blocked by 100+ Blood Furys which landed adiacent to them ... Let me tell you what happened when the Dougal's Divined marksmen hit ... All the Furys died, without any luck ! and then, the dungeon guy came with 66 minotaurs and placed them near the marksmen, in a disperate atempt ot slow down my killing rate... I think I was left with 250 ++ at that time cause he imploded again ... but guess what , the minotaurs were still dead in one hit (this time my marksmen might have been righteous mighted also)! So even in melee they are deadly ...
What can kill them ? Empowered implosion , but only if you get the earth shoes also , and huge spell power !
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted September 07, 2006 11:24 AM |
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Quote:
BTW why can't you play?What great tragedy has befallen you?
I've installed the nocd and gave my dvd to a friend, foolishly believeing that I won't need it. And then I changed my PC, and can't get my game back. Damn -_-
Mb I'll just find a torrent and dl it instead of waiting endlessly.. -_-
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 07, 2006 12:40 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:52, 07 Sep 2006.
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Quote:
I've installed the nocd and gave my dvd to a friend, foolishly believeing that I won't need it. And then I changed my PC, and can't get my game back. Damn -_-
Mb I'll just find a torrent and dl it instead of waiting endlessly.. -_-
Too bad Last time something like that happened to me it was on holiday and my friend was gone for quite a while(I had forgotten the crack).Oh well by the time you get it back your subconscious mind will have generated some new strategies hehe..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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RaZmuShaDoW
Known Hero
The Sync Bug Hunter
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posted September 07, 2006 01:29 PM |
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One thing that I can't understand TowerLord.. Most of the guys say that Dougal with his marksman is overp****** (this word makes me sick)
As I understand you agree with that fact. So why are you still playing with that hero? What's the point?
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What’s the point of being a renegade if you still have to pay taxes?
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted September 07, 2006 02:01 PM |
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OMG
Doomforge and Towerlord... first i have a question...just of curiousity, how old are you ?
Second:
Elvin is right about most stuff.BUT...he's also very wrong about some other stuff.For instance, Ihora has 0.5% and NOT 0.05% per lvl initiative bonus which is ALOT different.So Ihora+phantom forces would be a nice solution (firetrap works like a charm against palladins too )
And third:
Doomforge,
you based your theory on ver 1.0 ??? O M G . So many things are different since then.But,about palladins that lay hands on your marksmen - it doesn't have to be as easy as that.Do you really think that he would always keep palladins with direct access to marksmen? I don't think so.even if he had , Elvin put it nicely "they're better off laying hands than jousting towards you "
And about dark magic: i told you to use shadow witches/matriarchs for casting confusion and if he cleanses, then your hero.Or even have two stacks of matriarchs and you'll be fine.And let me remind you that all those things i wrote are just concerning the anti-marksmen strategy. There are many units that Haven needs to be affraid of.Expecially from Dungeon.Initiative is VERY important overall,so just try to get the ring of speed+ring of celerity and let blackies,grims and furies do some serious damage.And then when marksmen are the only thing that's still breathing - i believe you will find a way to destroy them
Not to mention combo of light/dark magic hero (that i sometimes tend to have) and then this is the situation :
Matriarchs cast confusion.Palladins lay hands.Second stack of matriarchs casts confusion again.Palladins cannot access marksmen.Your hero casts mass deflect missile (on expert).His hero casts cleansing but where? Does he cleanse his marksmen or your entire army?
And Towerlord,
may i say that if that guy did put his 100 furies next to 600 marksmen isn't very bright.And also, 66 minotaurs (or guards) isn't that hard to kill considering their deffense.I am more interested what the rest of his army was consisted of and what did it do to you.
And btw, i would love to play against you.But if you get to choose one map (Sub treasures i figure) then the rematch (regardless of the outcome) would be some map i choose.
L8er
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 07, 2006 02:09 PM |
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Quote:
Demortae,friend,
i guess that you're one of those guys who think that you can't beat Haven. In that case, i guess you don't have a lot of experience in HoMM 5.There are plenty of different strategies and ways of winning against ANY faction. If you disagree with that, i believe you're not too bright.
And another thing: would it make you happy if all units of the same tier in ALL factions had exactly the SAME stats and abilities and just a different look ? I guess that would be the only way to really balance this game.
Think about it...just like in any other game (and in real life as well) there are STRONGER and WEAKER sides of any faction (race,country,army...whatever) and that's just the way it is.The point is to use a counter measure efficiently and not spit on the game.
I am sorry if i sounded rude or inpolite,but i just got tired of people constantly critisizing the game without real reasons.
And if anyone still claims that Haven is superior,i feel sorry for him
I'm actually quite experienced, and yes, I can beat the marksmen strategy. However, to defeat this strategy, you must base your entire strategy around it, and still as often as not, you will fail against a decent player. That is NOT balance. I am not one to critisize the game, I actually think that it is the best HOMM to date, but the advantage training gives you is unbalancing. As someone mentioned immediately after my post, that is why they are changing it.
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This thread is pages long: 
